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NotWorthy
Guest
Who? Me or Ralph?
- Status
R
ron77nyc
Guest
That’s a very nice thought but it also is not the gospel message.
If you’re trying to say the bible is not the truth then anything goes.
We are not to speak for God and declare who will be forgiven and who won’t but He did tell us His plan for eternal life and He did not promise eternal life to all.
E
Emerite
Guest
Regarding Ralph Macdonald’s writing:
“You know the more I hear about the Catholic church,the more I am convinced that this church is a cult. I spent 43 years in that church and now I can see that they have their own gospel and do not follow the Bible, they are all blinded by Satan. Ralph.”
I’m sorry to hear how you feel about the Church. Could you possibly return just one more time to the Church one Sunday, and check out a Mass book in the pews? These books contain the readings and gospels for several weeks of Masses, which include quotes of book & verses where they are taken from in the Bible. I feel at peace with God, and certainly no fellowship with Satan – just pray that you might have peace, joy and contentment.
“You know the more I hear about the Catholic church,the more I am convinced that this church is a cult. I spent 43 years in that church and now I can see that they have their own gospel and do not follow the Bible, they are all blinded by Satan. Ralph.”
I’m sorry to hear how you feel about the Church. Could you possibly return just one more time to the Church one Sunday, and check out a Mass book in the pews? These books contain the readings and gospels for several weeks of Masses, which include quotes of book & verses where they are taken from in the Bible. I feel at peace with God, and certainly no fellowship with Satan – just pray that you might have peace, joy and contentment.
U
una_fides
Guest
THE PERSON ESTABLISHED A RELIGION AND SAID THROUGH THAT CHURCH THAT THOSE OUTSIDE OF HER CANNOT BE SAVED. True the Church without Christ is nothing, but the Church has Christ at her head, and to be in Christ is to be in his Church, which is his body.
U
una_fides
Guest
Do you believe that the Mass is a real sacrifice and that it is the same sacrifice on the cross that is made present at each Mass in an unbloody manner?
And in response to your other comment, if you as a Catholic willfully do not go to Mass and confession you cannot be saved. This is the teaching of Christ’s Church.
U
una_fides
Guest
Where did Scripture come from again? How do you know which books are included in the canon and which should not be? And how do you know that the Bible is inspired? Answer: the Catholic Church, without which you would not even have the Bible you’re reading from in the first place.
Your post outlines many of the typical protestant responses to the Catholic faith, and I do not have time, nor is it in the scope of the topic of the thread for any of us to handle all of them. If you would like to receive the answers to the objections you raised, I suggest going to catholic.com and typing in the search words and read the articles that arise.
U
una_fides
Guest
(Edited)
Ralph,
I’m sorry to hear you left Christ’s bride, the Church. Why on earth would you think that they “have their own gospel and do not follow the Bible”? The Catholic Church gave us the Bible! The early Church fathers, who held the same fundamental beliefs that Catholics do today, were the ones who decided which books should and should not be included in the canon. There was no canon of Scripture in tact until around 390 AD! The fathers were not in universal agreement as to which books were and were not inspired, yet they were in universal agreement on other doctrines such as the Eucharist being the real Body of Christ, baptism being necessary for salvation, the existence of a place of final purification before entering heaven, the list goes on and on… If one understands the Bible properly, in the context with which it was written, then one would know the Catholic Church is correct in its sole claim to apostolic authority through the pope.
Be humble, search the depths of your heart of hearts (not just your feelings or impulses but what God wants you to know and believe). Cooperate with his grace. If you truly seek Him humbly and beg for light from heaven, I truly believe that you along with everyone else would become Catholic.
Ralph,
I’m sorry to hear you left Christ’s bride, the Church. Why on earth would you think that they “have their own gospel and do not follow the Bible”? The Catholic Church gave us the Bible! The early Church fathers, who held the same fundamental beliefs that Catholics do today, were the ones who decided which books should and should not be included in the canon. There was no canon of Scripture in tact until around 390 AD! The fathers were not in universal agreement as to which books were and were not inspired, yet they were in universal agreement on other doctrines such as the Eucharist being the real Body of Christ, baptism being necessary for salvation, the existence of a place of final purification before entering heaven, the list goes on and on… If one understands the Bible properly, in the context with which it was written, then one would know the Catholic Church is correct in its sole claim to apostolic authority through the pope.
Be humble, search the depths of your heart of hearts (not just your feelings or impulses but what God wants you to know and believe). Cooperate with his grace. If you truly seek Him humbly and beg for light from heaven, I truly believe that you along with everyone else would become Catholic.
U
una_fides
Guest
Those who believe are saved initially when they are baptized (1 Pet 3:21; John 3:5-7; Mar 16:16), but they must persevere in the true faith until the end in order to be saved (Mar 13:13). The problem is that protestants read the word “saved” in Scripture and think that it’s a guarantee of salvation meaning that they are saved past, present, and future. In reality, Scripture refers to salvation in many different contexts of time. One must also understand that the authors some times use the word “saved” or “salvation” as referring to initial justification and other times to final justification in heaven, which are two completely different things. Just because one is baptized (saved initially) does not guarantee that he will endure in the faith of Christ and his Church and will not fall away.
Mat 7:21-23 Not every one that saith to me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven: but he that doth the will of my Father who is in heaven, he shall enter into the kingdom of heaven. Many will say to me in that day: Lord, Lord, have not we prophesied in thy name, and cast out devils in thy name, and done many miracles in thy name? And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, you that work iniquity.
Matt. 25:41 Then he shall say to them also that shall be on his left hand: Depart from me, you cursed, into everlasting fire, which was prepared for the devil and his angels.
Luke 13:24-28 Strive to enter by the narrow gate: for many, I say to you, shall seek to enter and shall not be able. But when the master of the house shall be gone in and shall shut the door, you shall begin to stand without; and knock at the door, saying: Lord, open to us. And he answering, shall say to you: I know you not, whence you are. Then you shall begin to say: We have eaten and drunk in thy presence: and thou hast taught in our streets. And he shall say to you: I know you not, whence you are. Depart from me, all ye workers of iniquity. There shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth; when you shall see Abraham and Isaac and Jacob and all the prophets, in the kingdom of God: and you yourselves thrust out.
U
una_fides
Guest
Addressed to the apostles and by extension to their successors on whom they transmitted their apostolic authority (as we know from the unanimous testimony of the early Church fathers): Luke 10:16 He that heareth you heareth me: and he that despiseth you despiseth me: and he that despiseth me despiseth him that sent me.
Mat 18:17 And if he will not hear them: tell the church. And if he will not hear the church, let him be to thee as the heathen and publican.
No salvation outside the Church.
Mat 18:17 And if he will not hear them: tell the church. And if he will not hear the church, let him be to thee as the heathen and publican.
No salvation outside the Church.
U
una_fides
Guest
I just posted this in another thread, but it’s completely relevant to this one as well:
God wants all people to know the truth about him. Jesus himself promised that he is the way, the truth, and the life. God’s grace leads people to the truth about him. We know that the fullness of truth is in the Catholic Church (1 Tim 3:15). Thus, God’s grace, that saves, is leading people to his Church. The problem is PRIDE. It is a mortal sin and is the reason that most people stay out of the Church and instead remain in what they want to think is the truth. Sincerity does not save. Living a life of grace in Christ is the only way one can be saved. One can sincerely believe that worshiping satan and committing evil is the way to salvation, but he would be doing so in opposition to grace, not in cooperation to it and his sincerity would profit him nothing. God’s grace leads people to the truth. It leads people to be part of his Church, outside of which there is no salvation.
Pope Pius XI, Mortalium Animos:
“We desire that Our children should also know, not only those who belong to the Catholic community, but also those who are separated from Us: if these latter humbly beg light from heaven, there is no doubt but that they will recognize the one true Church of Jesus Christ and will, at last, enter it, being united with us in perfect charity.”
papalencyclicals.net/Pius11/P11MORTA.HTM
God wants all people to know the truth about him. Jesus himself promised that he is the way, the truth, and the life. God’s grace leads people to the truth about him. We know that the fullness of truth is in the Catholic Church (1 Tim 3:15). Thus, God’s grace, that saves, is leading people to his Church. The problem is PRIDE. It is a mortal sin and is the reason that most people stay out of the Church and instead remain in what they want to think is the truth. Sincerity does not save. Living a life of grace in Christ is the only way one can be saved. One can sincerely believe that worshiping satan and committing evil is the way to salvation, but he would be doing so in opposition to grace, not in cooperation to it and his sincerity would profit him nothing. God’s grace leads people to the truth. It leads people to be part of his Church, outside of which there is no salvation.
Pope Pius XI, Mortalium Animos:
“We desire that Our children should also know, not only those who belong to the Catholic community, but also those who are separated from Us: if these latter humbly beg light from heaven, there is no doubt but that they will recognize the one true Church of Jesus Christ and will, at last, enter it, being united with us in perfect charity.”
papalencyclicals.net/Pius11/P11MORTA.HTM
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WSD
Guest
++++++++++++++++++++++++
If I understand Vatican II’s document on ecumenical movement they apply Paul’s principal in scripture about those who do not know Christ, but live by the law as part of their nature will be saved.
I take that to mean that if your heart is dedicated to living by what is true and good and right, God will not hold it against you if you did not have enough time to learn that Jesus is Lord, because when you die and meet him you will realize that he was who your heart was seeking. Likewise if you know Jesus, but have not yet found the one true Church. When the truth is seen they will realize theh Catholic Church is the one true Church
Peace
WSD
N
napad
Guest
One of the problems in the discussion of EENS is the misunderstanding of development of doctrine. Usually people believe this theory according to the book by Cardinal Newman’s “Development of Doctrine” as gospel.
They “develop” “interpret” EENS to make it a meaningless formula i.e. all are going to heaven and saved by ignorance (not by believing in Christ); the Church and the Sacraments are not necessary for salvation:
Pope Pius XII, Humani Generis (#27), 1950: “Some say they are not bound by the doctrine, explained in Our Encyclical Letter of a few years ago, and based on the sources of revelation, which teaches that the Mystical Body of Christ and the Roman Catholic Church are one and the same.** Some reduce to a meaningless formula the necessity of belonging to the true Church in order to gain eternal salvation.”**
But Newman’s book is quite a Modernist book. Not that I’m saying Newman was a Modernist per se but his theory is.
Orestes Brownson critique was quite good in Newman’s time
(Brownson’s Quarterly Review–year 1845 pgs. 342-368)
Mr. Newman evidently proceeds on the assumption, that Christianity can be abstracted from the church, and considered apart from the institution which concretes it, as if the church were accidental and not essential in our holy religion.
books.google.com/books
Newman says in his book of developments Chapter 9 par.3: “Thus we see how, as time went on, the doctrine of Purgatory was opened upon the apprehension of the church , as a portion or form of penance due for sins committed after baptism: and thus the belief in this doctrine and the practice of infant baptism would grow into general reception together.”
His theory was condemned by Pius X in LAMENTABILI SANE 1907: 22. The dogmas the Church holds out as revealed are not truths which have fallen from heaven. They are an interpretation of religious facts which the human mind has acquired by laborious effort.(=Condemned)papalencyclicals.net/Pius10/p10lamen.htm
No salvation outside the Church (EENS) was not a controversy until about the time of the “Enlightenment”
They “develop” “interpret” EENS to make it a meaningless formula i.e. all are going to heaven and saved by ignorance (not by believing in Christ); the Church and the Sacraments are not necessary for salvation:
Pope Pius XII, Humani Generis (#27), 1950: “Some say they are not bound by the doctrine, explained in Our Encyclical Letter of a few years ago, and based on the sources of revelation, which teaches that the Mystical Body of Christ and the Roman Catholic Church are one and the same.** Some reduce to a meaningless formula the necessity of belonging to the true Church in order to gain eternal salvation.”**
But Newman’s book is quite a Modernist book. Not that I’m saying Newman was a Modernist per se but his theory is.
Orestes Brownson critique was quite good in Newman’s time
(Brownson’s Quarterly Review–year 1845 pgs. 342-368)
Mr. Newman evidently proceeds on the assumption, that Christianity can be abstracted from the church, and considered apart from the institution which concretes it, as if the church were accidental and not essential in our holy religion.
books.google.com/books
Newman says in his book of developments Chapter 9 par.3: “Thus we see how, as time went on, the doctrine of Purgatory was opened upon the apprehension of the church , as a portion or form of penance due for sins committed after baptism: and thus the belief in this doctrine and the practice of infant baptism would grow into general reception together.”
His theory was condemned by Pius X in LAMENTABILI SANE 1907: 22. The dogmas the Church holds out as revealed are not truths which have fallen from heaven. They are an interpretation of religious facts which the human mind has acquired by laborious effort.(=Condemned)papalencyclicals.net/Pius10/p10lamen.htm
No salvation outside the Church (EENS) was not a controversy until about the time of the “Enlightenment”
N
NonCatholic
Guest
There is no salvation outside of Jesus Christ - regardless of your religious affiliation. God always has a remnant; even in this forum.
C
codebilly
Guest
Core of our Catholic Faith
The core of Catholicism is liturgical (congregational) worship centered in the Eucharistic gathering. No matter what any other church or denomination does or says, it remains the exclusive mission of the Catholic Church to carry out and perpetuate the direct command of our Lord, "Do this in remembrance of Me"
I happily ignore all past and contemporary failings of the Institution Church because its failings, and the failings of its fallen servants, have not, and cannot break, the apostolic lineage of Jesus in His priests, the ministers of His Body and Blood.
This is the wish of the Lord, and His eternal sacrificial bond with His ascetic companions.
Due to His Mercy in preserving His unbroken lineage, His devotees experience the same Presence of Our Lord in any Catholic Blessed Sacrament chapel anywhere the world.
You can take the entire body of every failing, sin, misconception, error in philosophy, of every Catholic, from time immemorial, and these are burned to ash in the Sacrifice of the Mass.
The eternal and perpetual aspects of Christ’s sacrifice in the Body and the Blood are established by Jesus Himself in the Last Supper when He said:
“This IS my Body” “This IS my Blood”
The Catholic literal interpretation is not dogmatic or subjective, nor is it an enigma. The Mystery of the Eucharist is actually VERY easy to explain and understand, and evidence of Jesus’ True Presence and eternal sacrifice cannot be refuted.
To state the very obvious, Jesus knew Judas was His betrayer. He also knew Judas was ‘spying’ on Jesus at the request of the Jewish authorities.
"Then the chief priests and the elders of the people assembled in the palace of the high priest, whose name was Caiaphas, and they plotted to arrest Jesus in some sly way and kill him." – Matt 26:3-4
Then one of the Twelve—the one called Judas Iscariot—went to the chief priests 15and asked, “What are you willing to give me if I hand him over to you?” So they counted out for him thirty silver coins. From then on Judas watched for an opportunity to hand him over." – Matt 26:14-16
“Watched for an opportunity” means “spying” or looking for a means to accuse Jesus of something that could be used against Him.
Therefore, Jesus knew that by establishing His “New Covenant”, at the very Passover feast, it would cost Him His mortal life, i.e. His Body and Blood.
Therefore, the “Remembrance of Jesus” in the Pashal meal can NEVER be separated, and is indifferent from His Real Body and His Real Blood. Any suggestion otherwise, is total rejection of His Immortal Sacrifice.
Jesus gave His Life at the Eucharistic table. There can be no denying it. Every protestant “reformer” that speaks against the Apostolic, Eucharistic Church, has missed the very essence of His Passion Revealed in His Word, the Gospels . Hence His sacrifice is from the Institution of the Eucharist through His death on the Cross.
This is the Catholic Church. Almost everything else in the Church is paraphernalia, even the Saints.
So open your bible and ask if you, and your revelation is greater than the saints and apostles, who entered deep into the mystery of the Word Incarnate, by complete renunciation of the material world and self sacrificial immersion into the Body of Christ, the Savior.
The core of Catholicism is liturgical (congregational) worship centered in the Eucharistic gathering. No matter what any other church or denomination does or says, it remains the exclusive mission of the Catholic Church to carry out and perpetuate the direct command of our Lord, "Do this in remembrance of Me"
I happily ignore all past and contemporary failings of the Institution Church because its failings, and the failings of its fallen servants, have not, and cannot break, the apostolic lineage of Jesus in His priests, the ministers of His Body and Blood.
This is the wish of the Lord, and His eternal sacrificial bond with His ascetic companions.
Due to His Mercy in preserving His unbroken lineage, His devotees experience the same Presence of Our Lord in any Catholic Blessed Sacrament chapel anywhere the world.
You can take the entire body of every failing, sin, misconception, error in philosophy, of every Catholic, from time immemorial, and these are burned to ash in the Sacrifice of the Mass.
The eternal and perpetual aspects of Christ’s sacrifice in the Body and the Blood are established by Jesus Himself in the Last Supper when He said:
“This IS my Body” “This IS my Blood”
The Catholic literal interpretation is not dogmatic or subjective, nor is it an enigma. The Mystery of the Eucharist is actually VERY easy to explain and understand, and evidence of Jesus’ True Presence and eternal sacrifice cannot be refuted.
To state the very obvious, Jesus knew Judas was His betrayer. He also knew Judas was ‘spying’ on Jesus at the request of the Jewish authorities.
"Then the chief priests and the elders of the people assembled in the palace of the high priest, whose name was Caiaphas, and they plotted to arrest Jesus in some sly way and kill him." – Matt 26:3-4
Then one of the Twelve—the one called Judas Iscariot—went to the chief priests 15and asked, “What are you willing to give me if I hand him over to you?” So they counted out for him thirty silver coins. From then on Judas watched for an opportunity to hand him over." – Matt 26:14-16
“Watched for an opportunity” means “spying” or looking for a means to accuse Jesus of something that could be used against Him.
Therefore, Jesus knew that by establishing His “New Covenant”, at the very Passover feast, it would cost Him His mortal life, i.e. His Body and Blood.
Therefore, the “Remembrance of Jesus” in the Pashal meal can NEVER be separated, and is indifferent from His Real Body and His Real Blood. Any suggestion otherwise, is total rejection of His Immortal Sacrifice.
Jesus gave His Life at the Eucharistic table. There can be no denying it. Every protestant “reformer” that speaks against the Apostolic, Eucharistic Church, has missed the very essence of His Passion Revealed in His Word, the Gospels . Hence His sacrifice is from the Institution of the Eucharist through His death on the Cross.
This is the Catholic Church. Almost everything else in the Church is paraphernalia, even the Saints.
So open your bible and ask if you, and your revelation is greater than the saints and apostles, who entered deep into the mystery of the Word Incarnate, by complete renunciation of the material world and self sacrificial immersion into the Body of Christ, the Savior.
C
Cara_Serrano
Guest
Does all this mean that the fullness of salvation is found within the Catholic Church, but those not in the Catholic Church may be saved based on the truths they may have picked up in other churches and have lived by faithfully?
N
NotWorthy
Guest
Think of it like a coach on a football team preparing for the Super Bowl. If you wish to win the game, you use your best players, right? If you bench your star quarterback, you might still win the game, but the task is oh, so much harder.
Many of the Sacraments that Christ gave His Church have been abandoned by those that broke off from the Church, not the least of which are the Eucharist and Penance. Think of these Sacraments as the star quarterback and linebacker and your playing the Super Bowl without them!
G
Godisatrinity
Guest
G
Godisatrinity
Guest
I believe just what Acts 4:12 says.
N
NotWorthy
Guest
Just as every good Catholic should!
F
FortyDays
Guest
To begin with, “…there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved…”
And further, Jesus, a cirumcised Jew, sent His apostles to preach among ALL peoples to save as many souls as possible. This is where the organization seems to discriminate.
- Status