Is there salvation outside the Catholic church?

[Cara_Serrano]

Think of it like a coach on a football team preparing for the Super Bowl. If you wish to win the game, you use your best players, right? If you bench your star quarterback, you might still win the game, but the task is oh, so much harder.

Many of the Sacraments that Christ gave His Church have been abandoned by those that broke off from the Church, not the least of which are the Eucharist and Penance. Think of these Sacraments as the star quarterback and linebacker and your playing the Super Bowl without them!

Wow! Football sounds more confusing than salvation.

 

[argonaut]

I’ve been thinking of leaving the Catholic Church. I thought reading this post would help me, it hasn’t, it has made it worse.

Jesus said that His Father’s House had many mansions and He was going to prepare a place for those that followed Him. Who do you think were/are in those other mansions? Another time He mentioned “those that are mine”.

Would you go to hell for God, if that is where He wanted to send you?

“Lord, I do not want wealth, nor children, nor learning. If it be thy will I will go to a hundred hells, but grant me this, that I may love thee without hope of reward — unselfishly love for love’s sake.”

Swami Vivekananda’s prayer at the World’s Parliament of Religions in 1893.

readthespirit.com/explore/2009/01/344-at-historic-transition-conversation-on-the-treasury-of-american-prayer.html

Then there are the Beatitudes:

The beatitudes present in Matthew and Luke are:

*The poor (Matthew has “poor in spirit”). The text says that theirs is the kingdom of heaven.
*Mourners (Luke has “those who are weeping”). The text says that they will be comforted (Luke has “will laugh”).
*The hungry (Matthew has “hunger and thirst after righteousness”). The text says that they will be filled (Luke has “be satisfied”).
*Those persecuted for seeking righteousness (rather than righteousness, Luke has “followers of the Son of Man”). The text says that theirs is the kingdom of heaven.

The beatitudes only present in Matthew are:

*The meek. The text says that they will “inherit the earth”.
*The merciful. The text says that they will “obtain mercy”.
*The pure of heart . The text says that they will “see God”.
*The peacemakers. The text says that they will be called “the sons of God”.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beatitudes

The Amish in Georgetown, PA followed true Christian beliefs:

Amish mourn neighbor who killed 5 girls

“Dozens of Amish neighbors came out Saturday to mourn the quiet milkman who killed five of their young girls and wounded five more in a brief, unfathomable rampage.

Charles Carl Roberts IV, 32, was buried in his wife’s family plot behind a small Methodist church, a few miles from the one-room schoolhouse he stormed Monday.

His wife, Marie, and their three small children looked on as Roberts was buried beside the pink, heart-shaped grave of the infant daughter whose death nine years ago apparently haunted him, said Bruce Porter, a fire department chaplain from Colorado who attended the service…”

msnbc.msn.com/id/15174741/

*Those persecuted for seeking righteousness (rather than righteousness, Luke has “followers of the Son of Man”). The text says that theirs is the kingdom of heaven.



I wonder what He would say about those being righteous and are persecuting others. Persecute also means to trouble or annoy.

Didn’t He also say to first remove the beam from your own eye before trying to remove the splinter in someone else’s eye?

“John Paul II oversaw the publication of the Catechism of the Catholic Church which makes a special provision for Muslims; therein, it is written, “The plan of salvation also includes those who acknowledge the Creator, in the first place amongst whom are the Muslims; these profess to hold the faith of Abraham, and together with us they adore the one, merciful God, mankind’s judge on the last day.”[89]”

 

[NotWorthy]

Wow! Football sounds more confusing than salvation.

No. Its rather simple. Paul uses a race to explain salvation, why can’t football?

You play the game with your best assets.

I mean, John 20 clearly shows that Jesus gave the authority to forgive sins to a group of men. Now, why would I ignore this gift, for it certainly is meant to be used by sinful people like me.

 

[ron77nyc]

Do you believe that the Mass is a real sacrifice and that it is the same sacrifice on the cross that is made present at each Mass in an unbloody manner?

I really don’t understand what the sacrifice of the Mass is all about. I’m open to hear the explanation. Jesus made the sacrifice only one time. We offer His sacrifice to God the Father at the Mass but we don’t sacrifice anything.

 

[codebilly]

I really don’t understand what the sacrifice of the Mass is all about. I’m open to hear the explanation. Jesus made the sacrifice only one time. We offer His sacrifice to God the Father at the Mass but we don’t sacrifice anything.

Did you read my post (above) on this page? Please read it and ask questions.

 

[codebilly]

(Edited)

What cult do you belong to? Every denomination or non denomination is a “cult”. The word cult is not the same as “occult”.

You are in a cult if you fellowship with anyone else and you are your own cult if you worship alone.

Read the writings of the saints … then decide if you know more than them. Maybe start with the life of Mother Teresa. Did Satan lead her to serve the poor and dying? Or St. Maximillian Kolbe … did Satan tempt him into sacrificing his life for another? etc. etc. etc. Try to imitate the saints first, not the Catholics you see at the pub, then decide what cult you want to be in.

 

[Lionpainter]

Pope Leo XIII, Sapientiae Christianae #14, Jan. 10, 1890: “St. Thomas maintains:
‘Each one is under obligation to show forth his faith, either to instruct and
encourage others of the faithful, or to repel the attacks of unbelievers.’ To recoil
before an enemy, or to keep silence when from all sides such clamors are raised
against truth, is the part of a man either devoid of character or who entertains
doubt as to the truth of what he professes to believe.”

Pope Boniface VIII, Unam Sanctam, Nov. 18, 1302, ex cathedra:
“With Faith urging us we are forced to believe and to hold the one, holy, Catholic
Church and that, apostolic, and we firmly believe and simply confess this
Church outside of which there is no salvation nor remission of sin…
Furthermore, we declare, say, define, and proclaim to every human creature
that they by absolute necessity for salvation are entirely subject to the Roman
Pontiff.

So what do you think?

Question: when we sin, we go to confession. We confess our sins through the Priest, as He is acting on behalf of Christ, and his authority is given to him through the church, the Priest is able to forgive our sins and then we do our penitence. So here is my question: When the Church sins, who forgives the Church? I will give you an answer after I have heard back from people.

 

[Lionpainter]

They are all Catholic.

Question: when we sin, we go to confession. We confess our sins through the Priest, as He is acting on behalf of Christ, and his authority is given to him through the church, the Priest is able to forgive our sins and then we do our penitence. So here is my question: When the Church sins, who forgives the Church? I will give you an answer after I have heard back from people.

 

[codebilly]

I’ve been thinking of leaving the Catholic Church. I thought reading this post would help me, it hasn’t, it has made it worse.

Jesus said that His Father’s House had many mansions and He was going to prepare a place for those that followed Him. Who do you think were/are in those other mansions? Another time He mentioned “those that are mine”.

Would you go to hell for God, if that is where He wanted to send you?

“Lord, I do not want wealth, nor children, nor learning. If it be thy will I will go to a hundred hells, but grant me this, that I may love thee without hope of reward — unselfishly love for love’s sake.”

Swami Vivekananda’s prayer at the World’s Parliament of Religions in 1893.

readthespirit.com/explore/2009/01/344-at-historic-transition-conversation-on-the-treasury-of-american-prayer.html
[snip]
“John Paul II oversaw the publication of the Catechism of the Catholic Church which makes a special provision for Muslims; therein, it is written, “The plan of salvation also includes those who acknowledge the Creator, in the first place amongst whom are the Muslims; these profess to hold the faith of Abraham, and together with us they adore the one, merciful God, mankind’s judge on the last day.”[89]”

… “seek and ye shall find”.

Asking questions are good. But recommend not leaving the Church, … rather revive and challenge it by staying a member.

Swami Vivekananda’s writings, inclusive of commentaries on Upanishads and Bhagavad Gita are worthy reads. In them you will continually hear the voice of Christ speaking to you.

However, his commentary on Hindu scriptures leans towards impersonalism and “self” salvation. It may be true that you experience God within through ascetic practices (e.g. yoga) in the various philosophical branches of Hindu philosophy, but the Christian revelation (aka experience) of God culminates in the Beatific vision (realization) of God, together with the worshipful congregation of Saints, Angels, and Our Lady.

Therefore, our Catholic revelation is a personal revelation of God in 3 persons.

The most recent and intimate explanation of our invitation to personal relationship (and experience) is found in His Holiness John Paul II’s

vatican.va/holy_father/john_paul_ii/apost_letters/documents/hf_jp-ii_apl_20021016_rosarium-virginis-mariae_en.html

Where it is said:

"In the recitation of the Rosary, the Christian community enters into contact with the memories and the contemplative gaze of Mary."

The above means that the devout, in purity of heart (prayer and fasting), can enter into intimate relationship with Jesus by directly experiencing Mary’s relationship ( ie memories) with the Savior. In the first joyful mystery, Mary’s contemplative gaze reveals her ecstatic, rapt love of the Savior fetus she conceives by the Holy Spirit. Every mother can identify with the inner joy and love experience between mother and fetal child. Mother’s will tell you there is a personal loving exchange also … between the child within and the heart of the mother.

Jesus is the Savior, and if you need a Savior, you want to have a real relationship with the Person of the Savior. This can only be found in Christendom. If you want to experience loving relationship with Jesus through Mary, then you want to stay in His Church.

If you must read the Swami Vivekananda, then I recommend you start with the Svetasvatara Upanishad because it is clearly stresses the importance of the Personal God and your relationship with Him. If you are a Catholic or Christian, there is no danger as you will find Christ easily.

Peace.

 

[ron77nyc]

One of the problems in the discussion of EENS is the misunderstanding of development of doctrine. Usually people believe this theory according to the book by Cardinal Newman’s “Development of Doctrine” as gospel.
They “develop” “interpret” EENS to make it a meaningless formula i.e. all are going to heaven and saved by ignorance (not by believing in Christ); the Church and the Sacraments are not necessary for salvation:
Pope Pius XII, Humani Generis (#27), 1950: “Some say they are not bound by the doctrine, explained in Our Encyclical Letter of a few years ago, and based on the sources of revelation, which teaches that the Mystical Body of Christ and the Roman Catholic Church are one and the same.** Some reduce to a meaningless formula the necessity of belonging to the true Church in order to gain eternal salvation.”**

But Newman’s book is quite a Modernist book. Not that I’m saying Newman was a Modernist per se but his theory is.

Orestes Brownson critique was quite good in Newman’s time
(Brownson’s Quarterly Review–year 1845 pgs. 342-368)
Mr. Newman evidently proceeds on the assumption, that Christianity can be abstracted from the church, and considered apart from the institution which concretes it, as if the church were accidental and not essential in our holy religion.
books.google.com/books

Newman says in his book of developments Chapter 9 par.3: “Thus we see how, as time went on, the doctrine of Purgatory was opened upon the apprehension of the church , as a portion or form of penance due for sins committed after baptism: and thus the belief in this doctrine and the practice of infant baptism would grow into general reception together.”

His theory was condemned by Pius X in LAMENTABILI SANE 1907: 22. The dogmas the Church holds out as revealed are not truths which have fallen from heaven. They are an interpretation of religious facts which the human mind has acquired by laborious effort.(=Condemned)papalencyclicals.net/Pius10/p10lamen.htm

No salvation outside the Church (EENS) was not a controversy until about the time of the “Enlightenment”

These are all ideas that I have struggled with. These are all forms of idolatry. By that I mean anything that takes the place of God or is made more important than God. “When the house of the Lord replaces the Lord of the house” is a good way to say it. Thanks for bringing them out. It makes me wonder about how close the present day Church is to that of the Early Church.

 

[jfreak64]

About St. Peter having a wife, which is taboo for a priest, at this moment, I don’t have documentation to prove my point, however I learned years ago that during early days of the Catholic Church, priests were allowed to be married.

People, including a dear educated physician relative of mine, seem to have difficulty understanding that Church laws can be changed, however God’s laws brought to us through the teachings of Jesus Christ, and written in the Gospels, cannot be changed.

If the priests were allowed to be married, then the church changed that rule, how was that rule based upon needing to be changed.

Why would the church have laws that GOD did not have? Isn’t that what got the pharisees in trouble with JESUS? Weren’t the pharisees more worried about all of the pomp and regality of religion? Wasn’t JESUS more worried about the inward relationship than that of the outer relationship? Wasn’t the early church more concerned about the mission of JESUS than the mission of the people governing the church?

 

[buffalo]

Question: when we sin, we go to confession. We confess our sins through the Priest, as He is acting on behalf of Christ, and his authority is given to him through the church, the Priest is able to forgive our sins and then we do our penitence. So here is my question: When the Church sins, who forgives the Church? I will give you an answer after I have heard back from people.

The Church is sinless. Its members are sinners.

 

[buffalo]

About St. Peter having a wife, which is taboo for a priest, at this moment, I don’t have documentation to prove my point, however I learned years ago that during early days of the Catholic Church, priests were allowed to be married.

People, including a dear educated physician relative of mine, seem to have difficulty understanding that Church laws can be changed, however God’s laws brought to us through the teachings of Jesus Christ, and written in the Gospels, cannot be changed.

If the priests were allowed to be married, then the church changed that rule, how was that rule based upon needing to be changed.

Why would the church have laws that GOD did not have? Isn’t that what got the pharisees in trouble with JESUS? Weren’t the pharisees more worried about all of the pomp and regality of religion? Wasn’t JESUS more worried about the inward relationship than that of the outer relationship? Wasn’t the early church more concerned about the mission of JESUS than the mission of the people governing the church?

This will explain it all.

Celibacy of the Clergy

 

[una_fides]

Pope Pius XII, Humani Generis (#27), 1950: “Some say they are not bound by the doctrine, explained in Our Encyclical Letter of a few years ago, and based on the sources of revelation, which teaches that the Mystical Body of Christ and the Roman Catholic Church are one and the same.** Some reduce to a meaningless formula the necessity of belonging to the true Church in order to gain eternal salvation.”**

To reduce to a meaningless formula would be to say that most people are saved anyway or that many people outside the Church will be saved. It is difficult enough to be saved as a Catholic, and we have all seven sacraments that give us grace in superabundant ways. We actually receive Christ’s Body, Blood, Soul, and Divinity into our physical bodies when we receive holy Communion, and we are given special graces at confession that help us to not sin again. Nevertheless, we as Catholics still often fall back into committing sins and even grave ones at that. What makes some think that people who are invincibly ignorant of the Church and her teachings and who do not receive the sacraments can without much difficulty cooperate enough with grace and live a life free from sin in order to be saved? Salvation is a gift and is not a guarantee. We have no guarantee that anyone is saved who is not a part of the visible body of Christ. We have only been told that salvation may be possible for someone who is invincibly ignorant, meaning an ignorance that is not any fault of the person’s whatsoever. In other words, such person did everything in his power to search out the truths about God and cooperated humbly with his grace and lived a life of holiness and died in a state of grace. Not an easy accomplishment. The dogma that there is no salvation outside the Church is not a meaningless formula by any means. It means what it says and says what it means. We can either humbly accept it as truth or rebel against God’s revealed truth.

 

[Lionpainter]

Question: when we sin, we go to confession. We confess our sins through the Priest, as He is acting on behalf of Christ, and his authority is given to him through the church, the Priest is able to forgive our sins and then we do our penitence. So here is my question: When the Church sins, who forgives the Church? I will give you an answer after I have heard back from people.

The Church is sinless. Its members are sinners.

The Church was empowered by Christ, yet he gave authority to Peter to build his church. A man. The Church is comprised of many members. Just as God is three persons in One. So when the Church sins, and yes the Church can sin, just as Peter denied Christ three times (and to deny Christ is a sin, especially when Christ gave authority to Peter to build his Church. So the answer to the question is “the Son of Man” The Christ. Only Christ can forgive the Church. For I have all the Faith in the world that God’s Word is at hand. That is why the events that are happening today usher in the Son of Man.

 

[una_fides]

These are all ideas that I have struggled with. These are all forms of idolatry. By that I mean anything that takes the place of God or is made more important than God. “When the house of the Lord replaces the Lord of the house” is a good way to say it. Thanks for bringing them out. It makes me wonder about how close the present day Church is to that of the Early Church.

The early Church taught that there was no salvation outside of her. That is a historical and universally understood fact that was never even called into question until about a dozen centuries later.

Here are some quotes from the early Church fathers:

Ignatius of Antioch (bishop, martyr, disciple of the apostle John)
“Be not deceived, my brethren: If anyone follows a maker of schism *, he does not inherit the kingdom of God; if anyone walks in strange doctrine *, he has no part in the passion [of Christ]. Take care, then, to use one Eucharist, so that whatever you do, you do according to God: For there is one flesh of our Lord Jesus Christ, and one cup in the union of his blood; one altar, as there is one bishop, with the presbytery and my fellow servants, the deacons” (Letter to the Philadelphians 3:3–4:1 [A.D. 110]).

Irenaeus
“In the Church God has placed apostles, prophets, teachers, and every other working of the Spirit, of whom none of those are sharers who do not conform to the Church*, but who defraud themselves of life by an evil mind and even worse way of acting. Where the Church is, there is the Spirit of God; where the Spirit of God is, there is the Church and all grace” (Against Heresies 3:24:1 [A.D. 189]).

Origen
“If someone from this people wants to be saved, let him come into this house so that he may be able to attain his salvation. . . . Let no one, then, be persuaded otherwise, nor let anyone deceive himself: Outside of this house, that is, outside of the Church, no one is saved; for, if anyone should go out of it, he is guilty of his own death” (Homilies on Joshua 3:5 [A.D. 250]).

Cyprian of Carthage
“Whoever is separated from the Church and is joined to an adulteress [a schismatic church] is separated from the promises of the Church, nor will he that forsakes the Church of Christ attain to the rewards of Christ. He is an alien, a worldling, and an enemy. He cannot have God for his Father who has not the Church for his mother” (The Unity of the Catholic Church 6, 1st ed. [A.D. 251]).

“When we say, ‘Do you believe in eternal life and the remission of sins through the holy Church?’ we mean that remission of sins is not granted except in the Church” (ibid., 69[70]:2 [A.D. 253]).

“[O]utside the Church there is no Holy Spirit, sound faith moreover cannot exist, not alone among heretics, but even among those who are established in schism” (Treatise on Rebaptism 10 [A.D. 256]).

Lactantius
"It is, therefore, the Catholic Church alone which retains true worship. This is the fountain of truth; this, the domicile of faith; this, the temple of God. Whoever does not enter there or whoever does not go out from there, he is a stranger to the hope of life and salvation. (Divine Institutes 4:30:11–13 [A.D. 307]).

St. Augustine
“[J]ust as baptism is of no profit to the man who renounces the world in words and not in deeds, so it is of no profit to him who is baptized in heresy or schism; but each of them, when he amends his ways, begins to receive profit from that which before was not profitable, but was yet already in him” (On Baptism, Against the Donatists 4:4[6] [A.D. 400]).

“Whoever is separated from this Catholic Church, by this single sin of being separated from the unity of Christ, no matter how estimable a life he may imagine he is living, shall not have life, but the wrath of God rests upon him” (ibid., 141:5).

Here’s a site with many more quotes:
mycatholicsource.com/mcs/resources/importance_of_being_catholic.pdf*

 

[una_fides]

The Church was empowered by Christ, yet he gave authority to Peter to build his church. A man. The Church is comprised of many members. Just as God is three persons in One. So when the Church sins, and yes the Church can sin, just as Peter denied Christ three times (and to deny Christ is a sin, especially when Christ gave authority to Peter to build his Church. So the answer to the question is “the Son of Man” The Christ. Only Christ can forgive the Church. For I have all the Faith in the world that God’s Word is at hand. That is why the events that are happening today usher in the Son of Man.

I think you are viewing the Church as the people themselves individually rather than being comprised of people. Please cite some reference to any official Catholic Church document or writing of the Church fathers or saints that says that the entire Church can sin and that the entire Church can then be forgiven. The Church is holy, not on account of its members but on account of Christ. It is Christ’s body, and we are in union with the body to the extent that we are holy.

 

[Cara_Serrano]

No. Its rather simple. Paul uses a race to explain salvation, why can’t football?

You play the game with your best assets.

I mean, John 20 clearly shows that Jesus gave the authority to forgive sins to a group of men. Now, why would I ignore this gift, for it certainly is meant to be used by sinful people like me.

I agree! John 20 is quite clear. Football, however, is still a mystery.

 

[FCEGM]

The Church was empowered by Christ, yet he gave authority to Peter to build his church. A man. The Church is comprised of many members. Just as God is three persons in One. So when the Church sins, and yes the Church can sin, just as Peter denied Christ three times (and to deny Christ is a sin, especially when Christ gave authority to Peter to build his Church. So the answer to the question is “the Son of Man” The Christ. Only Christ can forgive the Church. For I have all the Faith in the world that God’s Word is at hand. That is why the events that are happening today usher in the Son of Man.

Buffalo and una fides are correct. When man was reconciled to God by and in His Son the Catholic Church, the Incarnation extended in time and place, became the means by which humanity could enter into the New Covenant in the Blood of Christ. Through the Church, the Mystical Body of Christ, God dispenses the Grace (Divine Life) - especially through the sacramental life - to bring all people to Himself. The Church in its essence (Christ) is holy, but individual members can be, and often are, sinful, even dreadfully so.

Only what is done out of this union with Christ in us is the Church, such as teaching on faith or morals by the Magisterium, the sacramental life of the Church, the acts of virtue done in grace by the faithful, above all the lives of heroic sanctity of the Saints. All this is Christ IN US who cooperate with Him. The errors in teaching by individuals or sections of the Church, the moral failures, the exercises in poor judgment, the omission of doing good when the circumstances require it, all this is done not by virtue of union with Christ, but by virtue of sinners’ own initiative as first cause themselves, and thus not by the Church. Thus, Christ has no need to forgive the Church. It takes divine faith that the Church is this Great Mystery of union between Christ and His Body to see this

 

[una_fides]

I really don’t understand what the sacrifice of the Mass is all about. I’m open to hear the explanation. Jesus made the sacrifice only one time. We offer His sacrifice to God the Father at the Mass but we don’t sacrifice anything.

You are correct to say that we don’t sacrifice anything. It is the priest who acts in persona Christi (in the person of Christ) when he offers to the Father the same eternal sacrifice of the Cross in an unbloody way. Unfortunately, the new Mass does not clearly portray the sacrifice that takes place, whereas the Traditional Mass of all times (in place firmly since at least the 5th Century with prayers and traditions dating back to the apostles themselves) clearly portrayed the sacrifice that took place. In the Traditional Mass, the priest offered the sacrifice on behalf of the people on an altar (not a table) to clearly show the sacrificial nature. The prayers were also clear in depicting the sacrifice. In the new Mass, they took out most references to the sacrifice as well as to Mary and the saints and other Catholic doctrines that Protestants find offensive in hopes that they will be drawn more easily to Mass and to the Church and in hopes to emphasize our similarities rather than differences. (I personally think there are much better ways to do so rather than tinker with the Mass, but that’s another discussion). Anyway, yes, Jesus instituted the sacrifice of his Body and Blood to be offered perpetually throughout time. Yes, Christ died in time once and for all, but it was an eternal sacrifice that is made present at Mass. Christ is not re-crucified at Mass (like Protestants claim), but his sacrifice, once and for all, is made present at that altar in an unbloody manner. Jesus Christ is called a priest forever under the order of Melchisideck, who was an Old Testament priest who offered bread and wine. Christ offered in sacrifice the appearances of bread and wine at the last supper and then told his apostles to continue that sacrifice (do / offer this in memory of me).
Here are two websites that will help you understand the sacrificial nature of Mass in a much better way:
catholic.com/thisrock/1990/9006chap.asp
catholic.com/library/Sacrifice_of_the_Mass.asp
Read these. If you still have any questions, let me know.
God bless.