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napad
Guest
Sorry totally off subject start another thread
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napad
Guest
Please show a little* tact*. If you want to point out something so sensitive to a person as their religion, “Do unto other as you would have them do to you”
. He is at least reading this Forum that is better than a lot of stuff people could be spending their time on the internet.
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napad
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Off subject
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ron77nyc
Guest
I know about all these teachings from the Early Church Fathers. Today they are not true. Many Protestants have the Holy Spirit and Pope John Paul II said that the Holy Spirit is evident in the writings of non-Catholic religions.
As the Church progressed it suppressed the knowledge of the truth in order to keep the Vatican in power. Something it still tries to do today. Bible reading, personal relationship with Jesus and following the Holy Spirit was prohibited. If non-Catholics become more aligned to God’s will by acts of humility, preaching the Gospel and following Christ’s example of humility then why should they want to be like us?
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Lionpainter
Guest
My authority comes from the Father. Not by man, not by the Church.
But from my Father. And just as the Father glorified Jesus so to will He glorify his Son’s return. So it is written. When I was a young boy in a Catholic orphanage, I had an experience. In that experience, I crossed the heavens and was shown the things that are to come. When I was taken into this experience my Mother, whose name was Mary and I named after my Father, was on my left, holding my hand, and a man who was in a white robe on my right holding my hand, told me; Not to look back, don’t be afraid and these are the things to come. My Mother was in an Angelic state. The person at my right was not. I have written many letters to my community and told them of these things to come. All have come true. So as I always do, I bless myself, said the Lord’s prayer, Hail Mary, and Glory be to the Father. With the Good book closed I asked a question: What is it that you want me to do? and with the Good Book closed I opened the Book to St. Paul’s letter to the Hebrews, Chapter 5. And when I read the passage, I was taken back to the moment in time when the Father said to a little boy; On this day, I have begotten you, My Son and thou art a Priest forever according to the Melchisedech Order. So that all will know of my Truth, before this winter is over, as the Apostle Paul was caught in a storm that lasted for days, so too will this come to man again. That storm was called Euroaquillo, meaning Northeaster. For I am My Father’s Son.
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napad
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Good point since the Church teaches that they can’t otherwise if they could it would mean there is salvation outside the church.
Agreed Catholics can go to hell too.
Exactly! This is the point! It is accepted by many Catholics and even a Protestant can see that in the salvation of that IG (invincible ignorant person) there is no acceptance of Jesus Christ as Savior. The modern theory is saying people are saved by ignorance and not Jesus Christ!
This way you speak is double-talk from “1984”, cant you see it? You say :
Really? Do you really think so?
It means NO SALVATION OUTSIDE the Church. It doesn’t mean: There is Ususally no salvation outside the Church. It has no meaning to say only No if you mean “Usually No”.
You are using double think like in the book 1984. You are saying there is salvation outside the church if one is IG. But you say there is no salvation outside the Church. They both can’t be true.
I struggled with this for many years to see that this double think is a Modernist Mask. Once you can question who came up with this theory then you will be free.
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jlturner
Guest
Ahhhh - from “the latin” - Extra ecclesiam, nulla salus. Translation? “Outside the church there is no salvation.” It’s funny, really. I was just talking to a atheist about this, this morning. This is one of those dogmas that seems to be either taken out of context or not understood at all! There have been priests that were ex-communicated over it such as Fr. Feeney. I think it is very simple. We believe the church exists because of Christ. Without Christ, there in no “church.” To have church you must have Christ. Where does is say that the church must be Catholic? This is where non-Catholics and Catholics alike seem to get confused. We are taught as Catholics that non-Catholics can receive salvation. We do not discriminate. Leave that to the fundamentalists! LOL For further reading - may I suggest these sites?
catholicculture.org/culture/library/view.cfm?recnum=963
catholic.com/thisrock/2005/0512fea3.asp
Clearly, we are not the only ones to whom salvation is worthy!
catholicculture.org/culture/library/view.cfm?recnum=963
catholic.com/thisrock/2005/0512fea3.asp
Clearly, we are not the only ones to whom salvation is worthy!
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una_fides
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It’s an absolute statement that as Pope Pius XI said cannot be reduced to be meaningless. It has absolute meaning and is true. It cannot be defined as an infallible truth if it is not. Here’s what most people miss. If anyone in invincible ignorance is saved who is not a visible member of the visible Catholic Church, they are actually a member of the Catholic Church (through an implicit desire for baptism). Hence, they are actually Catholic. There is no salvation outside the Church, and such a person, if he were to be saved, would be part of the Church. The statement means what it says and says what it means. There is no salvation outside the Church, and anyone who dies outside the Church cannot be saved.
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una_fides
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I’m sure your private revelation had an impact on you, but you must subject it to the authority of the Catholic Church. Saints have warned against giving into visions and voices because they can lead to deception, and the saints always subject them to the authority of the Church. If anything in any vision contradicts anything defined by the Catholic Church (of which you claim to belong), then it is in error plain and simple. The Church, not private interpretation is “the pillar and foundation of truth” (1 Tim 3:15).
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una_fides
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I suggest reading infallible declarations by the Catholic Church posted on here earlier as well as the universal understanding of the early Church fathers. We are obligated as Vatican I infallibly defined to understand these dogmatic declarations in the same sense and with the same meaning that they were intended to mean and have always meant.Ahhhh - from “the latin” - Extra ecclesiam, nulla salus. Translation? “Outside the church there is no salvation.” It’s funny, really. I was just talking to a atheist about this, this morning. This is one of those dogmas that seems to be either taken out of context or not understood at all! There have been priests that were ex-communicated over it such as Fr. Feeney. I think it is very simple. We believe the church exists because of Christ. Without Christ, there in no “church.” To have church you must have Christ. Where does is say that the church must be Catholic? This is where non-Catholics and Catholics alike seem to get confused. We are taught as Catholics that non-Catholics can receive salvation. We do not discriminate. Leave that to the fundamentalists! LOL For further reading - may I suggest these sites?
catholicculture.org/culture/library/view.cfm?recnum=963
catholic.com/thisrock/2005/0512fea3.asp
Clearly, we are not the only ones to whom salvation is worthy!
Infallible declarations: forums.catholic-questions.org/showpost.php?p=4697747&postcount=33
Early Church Fathers: forums.catholic-questions.org/showpost.php?p=4702857&postcount=115
A couple Scriptures: forums.catholic-questions.org/showpost.php?p=4700855&postcount=88
We cannot rely on the secondary interpretations of private individuals whose opinions carry no authority. We must read the original sources and understand them as meaning what they said.
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una_fides
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They both are true. One who is invincibly ignorant can be a part of the Catholic Church through an implicit desire for baptism. Thus, they would not be outside the Church, where there is no salvation. Make sense?
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jlturner
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Let me ask you this - what - or whom - to be more specific - do you classify as a “private individual?” Are you saying that only saints or Popes could answer this question? As far as I am concerned this dogma could get very close to questioning God’s authority and plans for us - as Catholics and non-Catholics. I am not here to question God. I just cannot honestly believe that God would not offer salvation to all Christians - not just us Catholics!
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jlturner
Guest
The Second Vatican Council further explained the status of non-Catholic Christians (“separated brethren”) as follows (Unitatis Redintegratio, 3): The Second Ecumenical Council of the Vatican, or Vatican II, was an Ecumenical Council of the Roman Catholic Church opened under Pope John XXIII in 1962 and closed under Pope Paul VI in 1965. … Unitatis Redintegratio is the Second Vatican Councils Decree on Ecumenism. …
The 2000 declaration Dominus Iesus of the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith states that “it must be firmly believed that the Church, a pilgrim now on earth, is necessary for salvation: the one Christ is the mediator and the way of salvation; he is present to us in his body which is the Church. He himself explicitly asserted the necessity of faith and baptism (cf. Mk 16:16; Jn 3:5), and thereby affirmed at the same time the necessity of the Church which men enter through baptism as through a door.” Dominus Iesus then adds that “for those who are not formally and visibly members of the Church, salvation in Christ is accessible by virtue of a grace which, while having a mysterious relationship to the Church, does not make them formally part of the Church, but enlightens them in a way which is accommodated to their spiritual and material situation. This grace comes from Christ; it is the result of his sacrifice and is communicated by the Holy Spirit; it has a relationship with the Church, which, according to the plan of the Father, has her origin in the mission of the Son and the Holy Spirit.”[1]
Code:
But even in spite of them it remains true that all who have been justified by faith in Baptism are members of Christ's body, and have a right to be called Christian, and so are correctly accepted as brothers by the children of the Catholic Church.
Moreover, some and even very many of the significant elements and endowments which together go to build up and give life to the Church itself, can exist outside the visible boundaries of the Catholic Church: the written word of God; the life of grace; faith, hope and charity, with the other interior gifts of the Holy Spirit, and visible elements too. All of these, which come from Christ and lead back to Christ, belong by right to the one Church of Christ.
The brethren divided from us also use many liturgical actions of the Christian religion. These most certainly can truly engender a life of grace in ways that vary according to the condition of each Church or Community. These liturgical actions must be regarded as capable of giving access to the community of salvation.
It follows that the separated Churches and Communities as such, though we believe them to be deficient in some respects, have been by no means deprived of significance and importance in the mystery of salvation. For the Spirit of Christ has not refrained from using them as means of salvation which derive their efficacy from the very fullness of grace and truth entrusted to the Church.
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Celebration44
Guest
To una fides:
re your words: “If anything in any vision contradicts anything defined by the Catholic Church, then it is in error plain and simple. The Church, not private interpretation is “the pillar and foundation of truth” (1 Tim 3:15).”
This is not so “plain and simple.” This is an example of how the church has made itself more powerful than the message, more powerful than God, and it is a self-proclamation. It is likened to how the lawyers nowadays make up most of the legislatures, and they pass laws to protect lawyers. Of course the church is going to say that they are the only ones with the power to declare truth. Duh!!! On the contrary, if God comes directly to me and speaks to me, it carries a whole lot more weight than declarations of men … men with a vested interest to preserve their power and wealth.
Lighten up. God is important, not the rules. Jesus fought against people taking rules too far. God makes things so simple that “learned men” don’t need to tell us what he meant. By thinking they do, they are declaring God to be flawed — they are declaring God to be less understandable than humans, less clear than humans, less wise than humans. Such arrogance!
Here is all you need to know about the question of “Is there salvation outside the Catholic church.” …
God is more loving and more forgiving than we can ever be or ever imagine. He is PERFECTLY loving and forgiving. Therefore, ALL persons enter into heaven upon death. They are all forgiven completely. They all learn from their errors, and later choose to return to earth, to continue to learn and grow closer to God. God is great. God is easy to understand. Men are flawed, and enjoy pontificating.
re your words: “If anything in any vision contradicts anything defined by the Catholic Church, then it is in error plain and simple. The Church, not private interpretation is “the pillar and foundation of truth” (1 Tim 3:15).”
This is not so “plain and simple.” This is an example of how the church has made itself more powerful than the message, more powerful than God, and it is a self-proclamation. It is likened to how the lawyers nowadays make up most of the legislatures, and they pass laws to protect lawyers. Of course the church is going to say that they are the only ones with the power to declare truth. Duh!!! On the contrary, if God comes directly to me and speaks to me, it carries a whole lot more weight than declarations of men … men with a vested interest to preserve their power and wealth.
Lighten up. God is important, not the rules. Jesus fought against people taking rules too far. God makes things so simple that “learned men” don’t need to tell us what he meant. By thinking they do, they are declaring God to be flawed — they are declaring God to be less understandable than humans, less clear than humans, less wise than humans. Such arrogance!
Here is all you need to know about the question of “Is there salvation outside the Catholic church.” …
God is more loving and more forgiving than we can ever be or ever imagine. He is PERFECTLY loving and forgiving. Therefore, ALL persons enter into heaven upon death. They are all forgiven completely. They all learn from their errors, and later choose to return to earth, to continue to learn and grow closer to God. God is great. God is easy to understand. Men are flawed, and enjoy pontificating.
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una_fides
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Your comments regarding the Church shocked me. I checked your profile and noticed it said Catholic, but I cannot help but think you got these ideas from protestants and perhaps from a fundamentalist history book. The Church did not and does not “suppress the knowledge of the truth;” she embodies it and shares it with the rest of the world in hopes that they too will be converted to the truth and come to share in the Eucharist, which is the summit of our faith and existence. The Church has always sent out missionaries. Why? To hide the truth from people? This claim is up there with the fundamentalist accusation that Catholics want to keep people from reading the Bible! On the contrary, the Church gave people the Bible in the first place. Her actions have been misunderstood by Protestants (aka those who rebelled against her teaching authority given to her by Christ). I suggest reading “Where We Got the Bible” by Henry G. Graham: catholiccompany.com/catholic-books/1011326/Where-We-Got-Bible/
Truth is not relative and cannot change as you claimed. It is absolute. What is true one day cannot become error the next. John Paul II’s statements you referenced must be understood and interpreted in light of sacred Tradition. We must also know that he was not speaking infallibly and if he contradicted anything previously defined through the use of infallibility, he was in error. Just because “the Holy Spirit” may be “evident in the writings of non-Catholic religions” does not mean that those non-Catholic religions in and of themselves bring salvation. Such a notion was solemnly condemned by the Church (see below). It can mean instead as the context of that statement demonstrates that the Holy Spirit is moving those religions to the truth and preparing them for salvation (which comes through the Catholic faith!). If someone in another religion is invincibly ignorant of the truth, they can possibly be saved, but not through that religion itself. They are only saved by being incorporated into the Catholic Church.
See also my earlier post: forums.catholic-questions.org/showpost.php?p=4697736&postcount=31
To hold that truth can change is modernism, which is the heresy of heresies. vatican.va/holy_father/pius_x/encyclicals/documents/hf_p-x_enc_19070908_pascendi-dominici-gregis_en.html
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MGLechner
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The short answer is: Yes.
Unless you are prepared to say that Orthodox and Protestant Christians are going to hell!
If you are going to say that, then you will have a fight on your hands!
The Church does not save us.
God through the faithfulness of Jesus saves us.
The Church is comprised of those who either truly or nominally confess Christ as their savior.
Let the wheat and tares grow together. Christ and his angels will do the seperating.
Unless you are prepared to say that Orthodox and Protestant Christians are going to hell!
If you are going to say that, then you will have a fight on your hands!
The Church does not save us.
God through the faithfulness of Jesus saves us.
The Church is comprised of those who either truly or nominally confess Christ as their savior.
Let the wheat and tares grow together. Christ and his angels will do the seperating.
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una_fides
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The Church receives its authority from God. It seems you have a problem subjecting yourself to such authority but instead wish to elevate your own self and private opinions above that of the Church.
God made the rules, communicated them through his Church to which he vested with his own authority (Mat 16:18-19; 1 Tim 3:15; etc…). Please read these:
beginningcatholic.com/church-authority.html
scripturecatholic.com/apostolic_succession.html
catholic.com/library/Apostolic_Succession.asp
God is also justice. You cannot say that he is mercy without also acknowledging his justice. To make God void of his justice is to create another god. The reason Christ gave us his Church is so that we can know the truth rather than our own private interpretations of truth. The Church is there as a living organism to settle disputes whenever they arise, and it does so with the authority of the One who established it: Christ, who is God.
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Celebration44
Guest
To Una Fides:
The whole “justice” argument is absurd. What is “justice?” Are you saying that “good people” who, just because they aren’t Catholic, will burn for eternity in hell!!! Yeah, that sounds like justice. That sounds like God. Do you hear how ridiculous and un-God-like your arguments are. The more practical example of the justice or “fairness” of God is that he allows reincarnation as a way for us to all experience every possible human situation (thus “fairness”, vs. someone born an aborigine in their ONLY life on earth, and dying at age 5). Remember, we exist for eternity. God is not stupid. He would not just give us one moment of life on earth, as the basis for growth and learning. So “justice” argues against eternal damnation for non-catholics, and argues for reincarnation. (I know you don’t care about my personal communications with God, but He confirms that reincarnation is the standard, and that no one burns in hell; this is absolute truth; someday, soon, all will know this.) Listen to your soul, listen to God, it all makes sense.
The whole “justice” argument is absurd. What is “justice?” Are you saying that “good people” who, just because they aren’t Catholic, will burn for eternity in hell!!! Yeah, that sounds like justice. That sounds like God. Do you hear how ridiculous and un-God-like your arguments are. The more practical example of the justice or “fairness” of God is that he allows reincarnation as a way for us to all experience every possible human situation (thus “fairness”, vs. someone born an aborigine in their ONLY life on earth, and dying at age 5). Remember, we exist for eternity. God is not stupid. He would not just give us one moment of life on earth, as the basis for growth and learning. So “justice” argues against eternal damnation for non-catholics, and argues for reincarnation. (I know you don’t care about my personal communications with God, but He confirms that reincarnation is the standard, and that no one burns in hell; this is absolute truth; someday, soon, all will know this.) Listen to your soul, listen to God, it all makes sense.
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una_fides
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I’m curious why your religion says “Catholic” when you do not believe what the Catholic Church teaches. As I’m sure you know, the Church does not teach “reincarnation,” but instead does teach that those souls who die outside the state of sanctifying grace go to hell. It’s a fact and whether you believe it or not does not change its truth. I would cite for you the magsterium of the Church, Scripture, and Tradition (the three sources by which we can rightly know divine revelation), but you would reject them as you have already done in favor of your own private revelations and interpretations. It seems you have started up your own church or sect believing in your own private revelation and in reincarnation and whatever else your religion entails. But make no mistake, it is not by any means Catholic.
EDIT: I mean no disrespect in my comments. I just hope you piece together what it is you believe and why you believe it. If what you believe is Catholic, then you are Catholic. If not, then re-evaluate why you believe what you do and how you can know for sure it is true and revealed by God. If you are the only person who holds to that view, it may be time for re-evaluation.
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una_fides
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Justice is not absurd. We know God is justice based on divine revelation through the means he has established to clarify it to us: his Church. Do you believe in any divine revelation outside your own personal experience?
How does God “confirm that reincarnation is the standard”? Can you please show me some evidence from the PUBLIC revelation that God has revealed to us through his Church (which your profile says you claim to belong to)? The truth is that if you do not acknowledge divine revelation through the Church and refuse to read the articles that I provided earlier, then I do not think we should continue this conversation, which is getting off topic anyway. If you wish to read those articles and then send me a private message or start a new thread on reincarnation or something, feel free. Otherwise, let’s stay on topic. Thanks.
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