Is there something wrong with holy obligations?

[whatevergirl]

I am not sure if I placed this thread in the wrong spot? Please move it accordingly, if so. (and sorry in advance)

I was thinking about our beautiful faith the other day, and how some people who are not Catholic view some of our traditions or ‘rituals’ as ‘obligatory.’ It’s hard to miss perhaps, when we have ‘holy days of obligation.’ (I wish the RCC would take out obligation, but moving along…)

It got me to thinking if Catholics follow the Church teachings begrudgingly…and don’t really have a joy in their hearts for what they are following–how does God view that, might you suppose? Do you think that if we do things out of Catholic obligation, as opposed to joyously and willingly…would God view the action differently…if the outcome is the same? (ie: let’s say going to mass every Sunday–strictly because you know it’s a mortal sin if you do not attend, and other such examples–too many to name)

Just curious as to your thoughts.

 

[ChangingHeart]

“The love of God consists in this: that we keep His commandments- and His commandments are not burdensome.”
1 John 5:3

Since God gave authority to St. Peter and the apostles, authority to be passed down to their successors, that, in theory, places Holy Days of Obligation under the category of “God’s Commandments,” too, I think??? Or are they strictly considered man’s commandments?

 

[whatevergirl]

“The love of God consists in this: that we keep His commandments- and His commandments are not burdensome.”
1 John 5:3

That begs the question, however, as to whether Holy Days of Obligation constitute God’s commandments or man’s commandments, as, to my knowledge, they are NOT Apostolic in origin, other than Sunday Mass, obviously.

thanks for your reply. my question is though…if someone is merely following God’s law out of obligation, or fear of hell, or fear of committing mortal sin–does God view that person’s heart say ‘differently,’ than someone who joyously follows God’s law, if that makes sense?

 

[puzzleannie]

I
It got me to thinking if Catholics follow the Church teachings begrudgingly…and don’t really have a joy in their hearts for what they are following–how does God view that, might you suppose? .

good question
two thoughts come to mind, first is the parable of two brothers. the father gave them a work assignment, the first brother said yes cheerfully, but did not do the work. The second brother complained and said not, but afterward, he did go and complete the job. Jesus simply asks: which brother did his father’s will?

the second is from the Rule of St. Benedict, which warns in at least two places against grumbling, and that duties whether manual labor, prayer–the Work of God–and spiritual exercises, or service and hospitality to the poor, should all be done in a spirit of cheerfulness, and imply at least that grumbling reduces the merit for these actions.

 

[ChangingHeart]

God definitely looks at the inside, not merely the outside, as was evidenced with Jesus’ attitude towards the outwardly “religious” Pharisees.

 

[whatevergirl]

God definitely looks at the inside, not merely the outside, as was evidenced with Jesus’ attitude towards the outwardly “religious” Pharisees.

hey–excellent point–Thank you!

 

[baltobetsy]

Obviously, if the choices are to disobey or to obey grudgingly, it is still better to obey grudgingly. These obligations are grave matter; to disobey can be mortally sinful. A loving parent would prefer that a child not run out into the street into the path of a speeding car, even if he grumbles about it. Our loving God would surely prefer that we not incur spiritual death, even if we grumble about it. Obeying cheerfully can be one of the ways that we grow spiritually as we mature in faith.

Obeying keeps us alive so we can learn to do it cheerfully.

Betsy

 

[Katie1723]

There was a time in my life when I went to church because “I had to” Now, I can’t imagine not going. I love attending Mass and get there as often as possible. It isn’t an “obligation” any more…it’s a joy.Maybe it has come with age. I don’t know. Maybe it’s a deepening of faith. All I know is I like who I have become spiritually.

Kathy

 

[Verbum_Caro]

Here’s another way to look at it:

There is merit in doing something in obedience purely out of obligation (i.e. when you would rather do something else). Since obedience is the doing of another’s will over your own will, it stands to reason that when the wills are divergent there is, in a certain sense, greater obedience.

In other words, who is more obedient? The person who performs an act with a “yes sir!” or the person who performs an act with an “oh I was going to do that anyway!” It seems like the latter is still cherishing their will over the will of the lawful authority.

The other way to look at it is what has been said above by previous posters: that there is a great deal to be said for aligning one’s will with the will of authority.

Aquinas, as usual, synthesizes BOTH points (Summa II-II, 104, 2 (reply to obj. 3):

If that which is prescribed to him is willed by him for its own sake apart from its being prescribed, as happens in agreeable matters, he tends towards it at once by his own will and seems to comply, not on account of the precept, but on account of his own will. But if that which is prescribed is nowise willed for its own sake, but, considered in itself, repugnant to his own will, as happens in disagreeable matters, then it is quite evident that it is not fulfilled except on account of the precept. Hence Gregory says (Moral. xxxv) that “obedience perishes or diminishes when it holds its own in agreeable matters,” because, to wit, one’s own will seems to tend principally, not to the accomplishment of the precept, but to the fulfilment of one’s own desire; but that “it increases in disagreeable or difficult matters,” because there one’s own will tends to nothing beside the precept.

Yet this must be understood as regards outward appearances: for, on the other hand, according to the judgment of God, Who searches the heart,** it may happen that even in agreeable matters obedience, while holding its own, is nonetheless praiseworthy,** provided the will of him that obeys tend no less devotedly [Cf, 82, 2 to the fulfilment of the precept.

So perhaps we can diagram the various levels of obedience this way, moving from lesser to greater worthiness:1. disobey to spite the authority, even if we like what is being commanded.

1. disobey because we choose our own will.
2. obey because we like what is being commanded.
3. obey because we wish to honor the will of the authority, even though at the same time we like what is being commanded.
4. obey even though we don’t like what is being commanded.

I think that #4 and #5 are a close call, but I might put #5 slightly ahead (again, only specifically in reference to the virtue of obedience) because of Christ’s example at the Garden of Gethsemane:

“Father, if you are willing, take this cup away from me; still, not my will but yours be done.” (Lk 22:42).

What do you folks think? Does my list seem adequate, or does it need some revision?

VC
[/quote]

 

[Spirithound]

1. disobey to spite the authority, even if we like what is being commanded.
2. disobey because we choose our own will.
3. obey because we like what is being commanded.
4. obey because we wish to honor the will of the authority, even though at the same time we like what is being commanded.
5. obey even though we don’t like what is being commanded.

I think that #4 and #5 are a close call, but I might put #5 slightly ahead (again, only specifically in reference to the virtue of obedience) because of Christ’s example at the Garden of Gethsemane:
What do you folks think? Does my list seem adequate, or does it need some revision?

You make some very good points (even the stuff I didn’t quote ). I would agree with your list (and I did have to read it a couple times to fully digest it), but I would also like to make two points to clarify it specifically regarding the issue at hand. First, in order to obtain the full graces of the Mass, you must engage in full, active, conscious participation. “Mere attendance”, ie, grudgingly attending and letting your mind wander doesn’t cut it. Secondly, I believe it is an awesome grace from God to want to do His Will. So, you reflected that #4 is only slightly behind #5, I would suggest that the #4 people have already been blessed (not that we can’t get more grace )

 

[JimR-OCDS]

whatevergirl

religion without faith is foolishness.

My parents were the sort, who had an elementary level of faith. They did all the things the Church mandated. However, they never grew in faith. In fact, over time, as my father became ill, they became more skeptical about the Catholic Church.

Why does the Church have days of obligation?

I’ve asked this question myself, over the years.

The answer I got is, what does it matter?

Obligation or not, I want to go to Mass. I want to receive the sacraments and grow closer to Jesus.

Those who don’t have these desires, but only follow because of the threat of mortal sin, well their growth will be limited. Nothing the Church says will change that.

Only grace from Jesus Christ, who will instill in them, the sense of His presence, will help anyone to grow, spiritually. Our task is merely to be open to Him.

Jim

 

[pumpkinbeast]

thanks for your reply. my question is though…if someone is merely following God’s law out of obligation, or fear of hell, or fear of committing mortal sin–does God view that person’s heart say ‘differently,’ than someone who joyously follows God’s law, if that makes sense?

I don’t know if this answers your question or not… but, I do enjoy going to Mass every week, most of the time. I love receiving the Eucharist, hearing the readings, and just giving myself a precious hour to think about God-related things. Buuuut, I’m also a university student who lives in residence. Some mornings, it’s REALLY hard for me to get myself out of bed, dressed, and to Mass. Those mornings, I am glad of the threat of mortal sin that gets me going. Once I get to Mass on those mornings, I am always glad I went. I think we all need a little kick in the behind to do what we’re supposed to do when we’re tired, angry, depressed, whatever. Hopefully, though, most of the time we’re following God’s commandments more or less joyfully.

 

[TOP]

Here’s another way to look at it:

There is merit in doing something in obedience purely out of obligation (i.e. when you would rather do something else). Since obedience is the doing of another’s will over your own will, it stands to reason that when the wills are divergent there is, in a certain sense, greater obedience.

In other words, who is more obedient? The person who performs an act with a “yes sir!” or the person who performs an act with an “oh I was going to do that anyway!” It seems like the latter is still cherishing their will over the will of the lawful authority.

The other way to look at it is what has been said above by previous posters: that there is a great deal to be said for aligning one’s will with the will of authority.

Aquinas, as usual, synthesizes BOTH points (Summa II-II, 104, 2 (reply to obj. 3):
So perhaps we can diagram the various levels of obedience this way, moving from lesser to greater worthiness:1. disobey to spite the authority, even if we like what is being commanded.

1. disobey because we choose our own will.
2. obey because we like what is being commanded.
3. obey because we wish to honor the will of the authority, even though at the same time we like what is being commanded.
4. obey even though we don’t like what is being commanded.

I think that #4 and #5 are a close call, but I might put #5 slightly ahead (again, only specifically in reference to the virtue of obedience) because of Christ’s example at the Garden of Gethsemane:
What do you folks think? Does my list seem adequate, or does it need some revision?

VC

I was going to write that there is faith in obedience, but you covered it pretty well here. I would like to add that obedience will get you through some pretty dark times and trials like in the garden. Tim

 

[whatevergirl]

whatevergirl

religion without faith is foolishness.

My parents were the sort, who had an elementary level of faith. They did all the things the Church mandated. However, they never grew in faith. In fact, over time, as my father became ill, they became more skeptical about the Catholic Church.

Why does the Church have days of obligation?

I’ve asked this question myself, over the years.

The answer I got is, what does it matter?

Obligation or not, I want to go to Mass. I want to receive the sacraments and grow closer to Jesus.

Those who don’t have these desires, but only follow because of the threat of mortal sin, well their growth will be limited. Nothing the Church says will change that.

Only grace from Jesus Christ, who will instill in them, the sense of His presence, will help anyone to grow, spiritually. Our task is merely to be open to Him.

Jim

Hi Jim;

Interestingly enough, I agree–there have been times in my life when I have not ‘understood’ perhaps some of the RCC’s teachings, but obeyed…and lo and behold, was probably saved a world of danger, and problems.

You all have reminded me of that. I think that so many people don’t ‘get’ the Catholic faith, so they don’t understand why they should follow something they don’t understand…your explanations here can lend me a hand when explaining this to others.

 

[blessedstar]

When I was young I used to go to Church begrudgingly. As I lived in my father’s house I did as he said, but I wasn’t happy about it. You didn’t argue with my father, you just did it! Now I’m glad I did.

It is the obedience that matters, what comes after obedience are all the other things like being cheerful, but obedience comes first even if it is done reluctantly and we can expect this because most of the time we don’t know what is good for us, but God knows what is good for us and eventually we too will see what is good for us if we are obedient.

In the Living Prayer of my life