Is there such a thing as "Baptism of the Holy Spirit"

[palmas85]

Palmas,

It has been quite obvious from the get-go that you abhor charismatics and have no desire to inquire about it, only to condemn it. You never miss a thread where it is being discussed, nor an opportunity to inject the OLD, OLD argument on Montanism, which has absolutely no similarity. It is not only a straw man argument but it is showing your stripes for what they are. How did you say it? Mean-spirited? Why do you post? To condemn your brothers in Christ? To provoke argument? To get another thread closed so folks cannot have a decent discussion?

Haven’t been called mean spirited in a while:thumbsup:
But you messed up.You didn’t say uncharitable as well:tsktsk:

Nonetheless, I only stated the facts as I know them to be, I’ve been to charismatic services, both Catholic and Protestant. I have a Brother-in-Law who is a Pastor at a Pentecostal Holiness Church. I know a lot about the movement and more so, I know what a lot of people in the movement believe.

I have not in this forum spoken disparagingly about the movement. I merely said that many in the movement have the wrong impression about they are involved in. In the posts I was referring to the poster said and I quote

**Does Confirmation usually look like an outpouring, or an outdribbling?

I’m not denying we receive the Holy Spirit at Confirmation, but then we receive the Holy Spirit at Baptism too. So why again at Confirmation? Have we lost him in the meantime?
**

Or this one:
**at Confirmation do we hear speaking in tongues? Do we hear prophecy? Do young men have visions?
**

or this:

In scripture the coming of the Spirit that follows the imposition of hands has visible effects, and should do so today at Confirmation. But due to poor teaching and nil (not even low) expectations it would be very rare to see any evidence that a candidate had received anything, let alone a Pentecost experience.

These statements display clearly that there is a belief among some that Confirmation is lacking something because it does not exactly mimic the Day of Pentecost, complete with great signs and wonders and miracles performed or witnessed by all. Therefore, the Charismatics, those who really know what is going on and who are spiritually more aware then the rest of us have received something that the rest of us have not. Reception of the Holy Spirit is not something that requires any signs at all but yet, many in the charismatic movement seem to equate such reception with visible signs as being necessary.

Such is not the case at all, and for people to bring such unbalanced ideas and try to present them as facts is in my opinion just plain wrong.

I post because I feel that I am supposed to and only post when I feel that way.

PALMAS85 UNCIRCUMSIZED OF HEART AND EARS SINCE 1948::bigyikes:

 

[kellyanne]

Paramedicgirl:

For someone who only joined the forums on May 4th, you know an awful lot about what Palmas’ preferences are. You remind me very much of someone else here.

If you notice my first posts in this thread you would know that I took the time to read all of the links Ms. Carroll provided before I would dare jump in to judge the spirituality of this movement. Guess whose name is peppered throughout? And guess who is abhorrent toward charismatics? You should read the links. Very enlightening! (I noticed there are only 3 now, whereas there were 5 when I read them. A search will pull up a lot of info, so we are not limited in learning)

Anyway, thanks for the compliment. Great minds do think alike, and families of spiritual friends do stick together in agreement!
Agree?

 

[kellyanne]

Palmas:

Haven’t been called mean spirited in a while.

How about two days ago in your own words? (Last sentence) I have been following the thread and I can read.
forums.catholic-questions.org/showpost.php?p=2232966

You no doubt feel it is your Catholic duty to inform the populus of the “heretical” nature of charismatic beliefs and worship. I concede your right to that opinion, whether or not it is accurate. But the problem is that some would like to discuss it, and when you enter a thread, due to your character habits, the thread is apt to get shut down. Is that really your goal? To stimulate controversy in any manner, just as long as the issue gets canned?

I wholly disagree with your far-out view equating these people with Montanism. Not even close, and it is a wrong assumption that you continue to promote here.

 

[mommyof4]

Would confirmation be considerd “baptism of the H.S.?”

 

[kellyanne]

Excuse me for my misstatement a couple of posts ago. Since I followed both threads, I mixed up the closed thread a few days ago on charismatics with this one, where there are only 3 links below; whereas the other does have 5 links. In the second link for further references at the bottom, from the onset of that discussion Palmas sets himself against the movement, which is where I drew my initial information. Palmas is aware of his disagreement, so I need not say any more.

 

[steve99]

Not mud slinging at all my friend.

Yes, mudslinging. Your comments sunk to the level of tabloid newspapers which condemn the whole church because of a few alleged paedophile priests.

Just stating the facts as you portrayed them.

Or my opinions filtered through your “pre-Vatican II mentality”.

You see, I happen to believe in the Catholic faith 100%. Nowhere in the catechism or in Catholic theology is the second baptism, that of the Holy Spirit alluded to.

Does scripture count for nothing with you then?
“for John baptized with water, but you will be baptized with** the Holy Spirit not many days from now.” (Acts 1:5)**

It is not one of the sacraments, not necessary in the scheme of things for salvation

Did I say it was?

Remember the Montanist heresy?

No, I wasn’t there

probably not but I will tell you.

Oh, sorry, it was a rhetorical question.

It revolved around charismatic actions, speech, prophecy healing etc. It included such great things as Christ being cursed and the way of salvation ridiculed. It didn’t start that way, no it started off faitly orthodox and morphed into Montanus claiming to be the Son of Man prophesized The followers started to believe that they were specially blessed, more in tune with the Holy Spirit and spiritually more aware than non members. Just the same as do many charismatics both Catholic and otherwise. Not all by any means, but a lot. Enough to make a difference in the way that the movement is viewed by both Catholics and Protestants, not off of whom accept it either.

Sorry, but that is the truth.

And your point? That people go wrong sometimes? So its condemnation by association 1800 years apart?

Marcion was a bishop (and son of a bishop), but I don’t denigrate all bishops on account of him.

 

[Deidre]

Would confirmation be considerd “baptism of the H.S.?”

Well, Confirmation completes the Sacrament of Baptism and enriches our lives with the gifts of the Holy Spirit, so I guess it could be considered the baptism of the Holy Spirit.

Since the Sacrament of Confirmation is conferred on us by the “laying on of hands”, I guess in Charismatic circles, the “laying on of hands” might also be referred to as a “baptism of the Holy Spirit”, although I’ve not really heard it called that myself by Catholic Charismatics.

Since Confirmation is a Sacrament, it can only be conferred on us once, while the ‘laying on of hands’ in the Charismatic circle is a ‘sacramental’ or a blessing and blessings can be bestowed on people more than once.

Unfortunately, many people get hung up on the terminology rather than the effects.

Sacramentals are given to us by the church and resemble sacraments. I believe we receive grace through the actual Sacraments, but sacramentals, or blessings through the Church, prepare us to receive God’s grace and to cooperate with it at various stages of our lives.

 

[steve99]

Nonetheless, I only stated the facts as I know them to be, I’ve been to charismatic services, both Catholic and Protestant. I have a Brother-in-Law who is a Pastor at a Pentecostal Holiness Church. I know a lot about the movement and more so, I know what a lot of people in the movement believe.

I have not in this forum spoken disparagingly about the movement. I merely said that many in the movement have the wrong impression about they are involved in.

But you did exactly that:
":

Charismatics of almost all stripes believe that a second baptism, the baptism of the Holy Spirit, is if not required, at least very much desired, in order to be a real Christian. When you get into their practices you will find that almost all of them will admit to asking for Baptism of the Holy Spirit.

But if the majority of its followers do believe that the Sacraments are defective in form and somehow ineffective in the transmission of grace, as the OP here apparently does, then their beliefs are indeed heretical.

as by its very nature it is open to misuse, fraud and demonic intervention.

I’m sorry but I can find no real justification for the movement. Taken to its extreme, I believe it could be harmful to the unity of the Church by setting aside a spiritual elite, the charismatics, amongst the faithful.

Remember that demons can and do answer charismatic calls and pleas for further sanctification. Discernment might not always be what we think it is. Of course, I doubt that some, perhaps many Catholic charismatics even believe in the existance of demons so it could be a moot point…

Nonetheless, I only stated the facts as I know them to be, I’ve been to charismatic services, both Catholic and Protestant. I have a Brother-in-Law who is a Pastor at a

Pentecostal Holiness Church. I know a lot about the movement and more so, I know what a lot of people in the movement believe.

I have little experience of Pentecostalism or other protestant charismatics, but I do have much experience of Catholic Charismatics and I do not find your views, highly coloured as they seem to be by Pentecostalism, applicable at all to Catholic. Perhaps things are different in USA (or even just California) but the Charismatic Catholics I know are very strong supporters of Church teaching, and spend time in Adoration of the Blessed Sacrament and prayer. Many attend daily Mass (as I do myself).

 

[steve99]

I have not in this forum spoken disparagingly about the movement. I merely said that many in the movement have the wrong impression about they are involved in. In the posts I was referring to the poster said and I quote

****Does Confirmation usually look like an outpouring, or an outdribbling?

I’m not denying we receive the Holy Spirit at Confirmation, but then we receive the Holy Spirit at Baptism too. So why again at Confirmation? Have we lost him in the meantime?

---

Or this one:
****at Confirmation do we hear speaking in tongues? Do we hear prophecy? Do young men have visions?

---

or this:

In scripture the coming of the Spirit that follows the imposition of hands has visible effects, and should do so today at Confirmation. But due to poor teaching and nil (not even low) expectations it would be very rare to see any evidence that a candidate had received anything, let alone a Pentecost experience.

These statements display clearly that there is a belief among some that Confirmation is lacking something because it does not exactly mimic the Day of Pentecost, complete with great signs and wonders and miracles performed or witnessed by all. Therefore, the Charismatics, those who really know what is going on and who are spiritually more aware then the rest of us have received something that the rest of us have not. Reception of the Holy Spirit is not something that requires any signs at all but yet, many in the charismatic movement seem to equate such reception with visible signs as being necessary.

Such is not the case at all, and for people to bring such unbalanced ideas and try to present them as facts is in my opinion just plain wrong.

As the person you are quoting here I feel I ought to defend myself against this misrepresentation of what I said.

1. I did not as you suggest present them as facts, but my opinions.
2. I did not say that [the sacrament of] “Confirmation is lacking something because it does not exactly mimic the Day of Pentecost, complete with great signs and wonders and miracles performed or witnessed by all.”

I was suggesting that we ought to see more evidence that this outpouring of the Holy Spirit had taken place just as there was evidence in the early Church. Are we in a different Church?

And what are those effects? (my emboldening in these extracts from the Catechism)

****III. THE EFFECTS OF CONFIRMATION ****
****1302 ****It is evident from its celebration that the effect of the sacrament of Confirmation is the special outpouring of the Holy Spirit as once granted to the apostles on the day of Pentecost.

****1309 ******Preparation **for Confirmation should aim at leading the Christian toward a more intimate union with Christ and ****a more lively familiarity with the Holy Spirit - his actions, his gifts, and his biddings ****- in order to be more capable of assuming the apostolic responsibilities of Christian life……

(contd. because of length)

 

[steve99]

Contd from above)

The Catechism also says

****1286 ****In the Old Testament the prophets announced that the Spirit of the Lord would rest on the hoped-for Messiah for his saving mission. The descent of the Holy Spirit on Jesus at his baptism by John was the sign that this was he who was to come, the Messiah, the Son of God. He was conceived of the Holy Spirit; his whole life and his whole mission are carried out in total communion with the Holy Spirit whom the Father gives him “without measure.”
****1287 ****This fullness of the Spirit was not to remain uniquely the Messiah’s, but was to be communicated to the whole messianic people. On several occasions Christ promised this outpouring of the Spirit, a promise which he fulfilled first on Easter Sunday and then more strikingly at Pentecost. Filled with the Holy Spirit the apostles began to proclaim “the mighty works of God,” and Peter declared this outpouring of the Spirit to be the sign of the messianic age. Those who believed in the apostolic preaching and were baptized received the gift of the Holy Spirit in their turn.

Are we to receive less of the Holy Spirit than Peter and the other apostles received at Pentecost, or Cornelius and his household received, or the twelve men at Ephesus received? Are we a different Church to then?

 

[Joysong]

Dear Palmas,

I just came indoors from weeding after a couple days of good soaking rain. It takes a lot of experience for a gardener to know by the tiny leaves which ones will grow into flowers and which will be noxious, for at the early stage of growth it is very difficult to recognize. There is almost a copy-cat for every true seed in the leaf of a weed.

It occurred to me as I pondered this issue you have so much difficulty with, to present for your consideration the parable of the weeds and wheat. I had asked for help with this awhile ago, and received this wonderful insightful answer:

The parable is not directly concerned with the general problem of evil in the world but rather with the special problem of evil in His kingdom

But the servants of Christ cannot know the dispositions of men’s hearts; hence they cannot always distinguish the weeds from the wheat.

However, it is important to note that the weeds of the parable are not just any kind of undesirable growth among the wheat but a definite species of weed is named, the zizanium, a kind of wild wheat, known variously as cockle, tare, or darnel, which can hardly be distinguished from true wheat until its ears of grain ripen. Therefore, even though these weeds undoubtedly hinder the proper growth of the wheat, to try to root them out would do more harm than good, not so much because they roots of the weeds might be entwined with those of the wheat but because the servants of the householder might not know how to distinguish the weeds from the wheat and **wrongly root up the latter.
**
forums.catholic-questions.org/showpost.php?p=1582233

Notice the emphasis on the inability to distinguish, and awaiting the fruit as evidence. Nothing that I see in your posts is pointing to bad fruit, other than to cast aspersions on it as a “look-alike” movement of old or a pentecostal movement of here and now, in order to designate that all the seeds are therefore weeds! Can you listen to Jesus who tells us to leave them be? It is wrong to kick against the goad, for in doing so, you may be opposing God Himself.

 

[Deidre]

Dear Palmas,

I just came indoors from weeding after a couple days of good soaking rain. It takes a lot of experience for a gardener to know by the tiny leaves which ones will grow into flowers and which will be noxious, for at the early stage of growth it is very difficult to recognize. There is almost a copy-cat for every true seed in the leaf of a weed.

It occurred to me as I pondered this issue you have so much difficulty with, to present for your consideration the parable of the weeds and wheat. I had asked for help with this awhile ago, and received this wonderful insightful answer:

Notice the emphasis on the inability to distinguish, and awaiting the fruit as evidence. Nothing that I see in your posts is pointing to bad fruit, other than to cast aspersions on it as a “look-alike” movement of old or a pentecostal movement of here and now, in order to designate that all the seeds are therefore weeds! Can you listen to Jesus who tells us to leave them be? It is wrong to kick against the goad, for in doing so, you may be opposing God Himself.

Joysong,

Nice comparison. Beautifully said!

 

[rwoehmke]

I know people including Charismatics in the Catholic Church talk about being Baptized in the Holy Spirit. It is an unfortunate use of the term baptism but that is not to denigrate the sacrament of Baptism and Confirmation, in actuality is better defined as a stirring up of the gifts already received in Baptism and Confirmation. Stirring up in the sense that for many of us we never think to allow these gifts to be fully activated in our daily living. It is like being given a powerful and wondrous gift by a great aunt and then placing the gift on a closet shelf and not unwrapping it or perhaps unwrapping it and thinking “nice” and then storing it away. Yes you have the gift, but do you try to use it? Our Lord has done wounderous things for us in these sacraments, but we can live in such a way and frame of mind that the gifts are rarely used if at all.

 

[sajala]

Wow! Interesting discussion with lots of misunderstandings and some excellent references, commentaries and teachings.

I’ve read this entire thread, and in the spirit of “been there, done that”, with your permission, I’d like to share my experiences around receiving the Baptism of/with/in the Holy Spirit. This is a personal story and does not reflect the experiences of anyone else. This is a long post.

I converted from evangelical charismatic traditions to Catholicism in 2003. Many years prior, as a newly minted non-Catholic Christian, I frequently prayed for the Baptism of the Holy Spirit.
One Sunday morning, while standing near the “altar”, waiting for someone from the prayer team to pray with me for the B.H.S., The young woman next to me tearfully lamented that she had been going forward for prayer to receive the B.H.S. for months, and nothing had happened. She feared that God was rejecting her for some reason. Suddenly, I realized that I had the same fears. The pastor prayed for her, pulled on her hands the way nurses pull on newborns’ legs and hands to get them to breathe, and told her to just start babbling to see if the gift of tongues was just waiting to be released. When he came to me, I told him I was like that woman, he did the same thing to me. I dutifully babbled, but it was more of an emotional, fear-driven babble than the impetus of the Holy Spirit. I expected to speak in a real language that was unknown to me, but I’m not sure how I would have known it was real. Most people who speak in tongues say the same syllables over and over. That is not what happened on the Day of Pentecost. The apostles spoke in tongues/languages that other people understood.

In pentecostal churches, the gift of tongues, glossilalia, is required as evidence of the B.H.S. And, while they do not teach that it is required for salvation, it is an unspoken requirement for service in most churches.

God answered my prayers inspite of my misgivings. I did later receive the gifts of the Spirit that Catholics call charisms. They are conferred on an as-needed basis and almost always for the benefit of others. Catholics are not without the gifts of the Holy Spirit nor the charisms. But neither do they publicly display them in the way that we did in the charismatic and Pentecostal churches I attended. And human abuse and demonic side-tracking of those gifts was always a very real danger.

Back to the original question, “Is there such a thing as the Baptism of the Holy Spirit?” Semantics will get you every time. So what is mdcpensive1’s definition of the term? If he/she doesn’t know, but has been exposed to it by Mother Nadine, then perhaps he/she should ask her what she means when she refers to the B.H.S. because what she means may be different from what pentecostals and charismatics mean. Many people have posted excellent biblical and catechetical references with regard to that expression, so it seems that the general answer is “yes, there is such a thing as the Baptism of the Holy Spirit.”

Anyway, my $0.02 worth.

Blessings,
sajala

“There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio, Than are dreamt of in your philosophy.” *Hamlet *(I, v, 166-167)

 

[Deidre]

Wow! Interesting discussion with lots of misunderstandings and some excellent references, commentaries and teachings.

I’ve read this entire thread, and in the spirit of “been there, done that”, with your permission, I’d like to share my experiences around receiving the Baptism of/with/in the Holy Spirit. This is a personal story and does not reflect the experiences of anyone else. This is a long post.

Sajala,
Thank you for your post and welcome to the forums!

 Yours is an interesting story.  Personally, I never prayed for the 'baptism of the Holy Spirit'.  I didn't believe in the charism of tongues and thought anyone who claimed to pray in tongues was a fake.
 
 But despite my unbelief, God took hold of me and humbled me one evening and my spiritual life has not been the same since then.  I experienced the gift of tongues, but it was passing. The real gift was the humility I experienced that allowed me to grow in Christ.

 I think it just goes to show that God will gift 'who' He chooses and 'when' He chooses at His discretion, knowing what each of us needs to aid us on our spiritual journey.

 

[Walking_Home]

For someone who only joined the forums on May 4th, you know an awful lot about what Palmas’ preferences are. You remind me very much of someone else here.

---

You know—I believe you are right. Block out the screen-names—and from the posts—it is difficult to tell one from the other.

 

[Joysong]

Dear Friends,

Someone mentioned the hymn Veni Creator Spiritus and it reminded me of something that might help us out. In Chapter XXIV of St. Teresa of Avila’s Life, she is speaking about her desire to aim at greater perfection and began counselling with a priest who assisted her in this deeper search for God. One of his counsels was to abandon certain friendships which she did not feel were actually leading her to offend God. There was a great deal of affection beneath them and it seemed to her that if she abandoned them, she would be sinning against God.

He told her to commend the matter to God for a few days and to recite the hymn Veni Creator Spiritus and God would enlighten her what to do. She spent the greater part of her time in prayer begging God to help her please Him in everything.

I began the hymn. While I was reciting it, there came to me a transport so sudden that it almost carried me away. I could make no mistake about this, so clear was it. This was the first time that the Lord had granted me the favor of any kind of rapture.

We realize St. Teresa had been baptized and confirmed, for she was a nun. Yet being not of our century, our saints had no language to express what takes place in the soul when it beseeches the Holy Spirit in this manner, and God graciously bestows this spiritual [anointing, rapture, slain in the Spirit, contemplation, prayer of quiet — whatever.] We have no language to speak of these things because they take place outside the realm of the senses, and are given to one’s spirit, although the body does perceive a tremendous blessing.

But notice that it was granted AFTER she began to strive for a deeper perfection. Similarly, this is usually the sentiments with many who undertake the Life in the Spirit Seminar. And may I suggest that some receive this experience privately without having joined the charismatic circles. And dare I say it, God is able to bestow His gifts on those outside of our faith as well, many of whom are already baptized.

It is very difficult for someone who has not experienced any “release of the Spirit” to believe another who has been thus gifted. But I assure all of us, having studied St. Teresa, that it is does occur. What name we give it is the problem that confuses everyone, and the “baptism of the Holy Spirit” leads one to perceive it as something potentially against our Catholic teaching.

The beauty of St. Teresa’s experiences which she commited to writing is that we are able to differentiate the true from the false. She, too, had to endure the contradiction and persecution of holy people who did not understand her spiritual gifts and actually called them demonic. So not much is new today, then, is it?

May I suggest a study of her works for any who still doubt that God is able to pour out His Spirit in a deeper way - above and beyond the sacramental baptism and confirmation.

 

[sajala]

Joysong, I love what you’d posted. Thank you for such words of wisdom. I started to say something about St. Teresa of Avila, but it was not strictly in line with what I was trying to say about my own experiences. Namely that God gives gifts to whomever he chooses, and there is a reality greater than what we see.

Blessings,
sajala

 

[Joysong]

Hello Sajala,

Thank you for your kind words. Maybe I should share a little secret. This is what some, including St. Paul, would call the gift of prophecy in operation - not in the grandiose sense of fortelling future events, but in giving exhortation under the influence of the Holy Spirit for upbuilding of His Body. I felt it, too, for it also edified me.

To have received this little insight after weeding, and the connection with St. Teresa’s experience after seeing someone post that hymn name, were just quiet inspirations that I felt certain came from God - for all of us! I was humbled as well, as though I was sitting under the feet of a tutor absorbing the lesson.

The only thing I can conclude is that God is very much interested in keeping all of us united in charity, and maybe touching the hearts of some lurkers to begin preparation for Pentecost as part of their own deeper longing for the Spirit’s infilling, in whatever form that may please God to grant it. Maybe even singing the same hymn for starters in prayer?

God bless us all!

PS. I see you registered long ago, but are now beginning to post. I pray that you will meet many of God’s friends here as you continue to share with us.

Carole

 

[palmas85]

Dear Palmas,

I just came indoors from weeding after a couple days of good soaking rain. It takes a lot of experience for a gardener to know by the tiny leaves which ones will grow into flowers and which will be noxious, for at the early stage of growth it is very difficult to recognize. There is almost a copy-cat for every true seed in the leaf of a weed.

It occurred to me as I pondered this issue you have so much difficulty with, to present for your consideration the parable of the weeds and wheat. I had asked for help with this awhile ago, and received this wonderful insightful answer:

Notice the emphasis on the inability to distinguish, and awaiting the fruit as evidence. Nothing that I see in your posts is pointing to bad fruit, other than to cast aspersions on it as a “look-alike” movement of old or a pentecostal movement of here and now, in order to designate that all the seeds are therefore weeds! Can you listen to Jesus who tells us to leave them be? It is wrong to kick against the goad, for in doing so, you may be opposing God Himself.

When I was confirmed I was told that I was a soldier for Christ and to defend the faith whenever it was threatened or attacked…That is what I have done. I never attacked anyone on this forum personally,and I never attacked the movement as a whole.

I pointed out the simple truth that there is much potential for abuse in the movement, and please Joy, don’t tell ma that there is not, we both know differently, that many in the movement have an attitude that they represent the how shall I call it, spiritual elite of the Catholic faith, being specially touched by the Spirit and all and that there appears to be a shocking lack of knowledge about the Sacraments, what they are and what they do. Referring to the Sacrament of Confirmation in the manner that was done shows no purpose other than to deride the faith as it has been practiced for over a thousand years and to imply that now , through the Charismatic Renewal, the gifts of the Holy Spirit are finally being recognized and used properly.

The idea that an outpouring of grace by the Holy Spirit must be accompanied by physical signs is not supported in Catholic Tradition the Catechism or even definitively in Scripture, yet that appears to be the assertion and view by these posters. Without the signs, there was no grace bestowed, or if it was it was insufficient or not used properly. How did the poster referred to Joy, an outdribbling rather than an outpouring?

I take exception to such statements, beliefs and lack of knowledge.about the Sacraments and see no evidence that the Charismatic Renewal Movement has stumbled upon a new and improved way to transmit the Grace of the Holy Spirit. The truth is they have not.

Oh,and lest I forget, I point out the references to Montanism, not because I believe the Charismatic Renewal itself is a descendant of that movement, tempting as that idea is:thumbsup: No. I bring it up to show that adherents to such movements, if left unproperly catechized, as appears to be the case here, can fall over the line quite easily into heretical beliefs. Thats all.