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nightwalker
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:banghead: done with troll
Is there truly a priest shortage or is there only a diocesan priest shortage?
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1234
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That’s one of the problems with phatmass–there are actually only a few regular posters–i have seen it decline since I’ve been there. The regular posters tend to be the hard-core Perpetual discerners or the teenagers with several years to go before they’re even eligible to enter.
I stand by what I said re the Adrians and the Church. The Holy Office, the Pope, the head of the Order of Preachers, on and on right down the line–could take a stand. They have regarding others. But they haven’t against Adrian.
I think that the priest shortage is general, by the way. Suppose the OP’s, the OSB’s, the many Franciscans, Norbertines, etc. who have administered in parishes in the past --were still doing so, because of their large numbers–this would greatly alleviate the priest shortage. The problem is–they’re not. The orders have their own ministries, schools, retreats and increasingly can’t spare their own priests for the dioceses. But my impression is that CARA’s most recent stats from 2007 says that religious priests are also down, but not as severely as diocesan priests.(CARA’s website is down at the moment). CARA is updating these stats in July for 2008. CARA is the Center for Research in the Apostolate, based in Georgetown and their stats are updated often.
I stand by what I said re the Adrians and the Church. The Holy Office, the Pope, the head of the Order of Preachers, on and on right down the line–could take a stand. They have regarding others. But they haven’t against Adrian.
I think that the priest shortage is general, by the way. Suppose the OP’s, the OSB’s, the many Franciscans, Norbertines, etc. who have administered in parishes in the past --were still doing so, because of their large numbers–this would greatly alleviate the priest shortage. The problem is–they’re not. The orders have their own ministries, schools, retreats and increasingly can’t spare their own priests for the dioceses. But my impression is that CARA’s most recent stats from 2007 says that religious priests are also down, but not as severely as diocesan priests.(CARA’s website is down at the moment). CARA is updating these stats in July for 2008. CARA is the Center for Research in the Apostolate, based in Georgetown and their stats are updated often.
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daughterofmary
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I just took a look at VS today at about 6pm and there are 24 threads on the opening page. Only three members have made two each of those 24. That means 22 totally different people have started the threads that are on the opening page alone. 22. Not a “few”. Sixteen different people have updated those threads in the last twenty-four hours. Twenty of those threads were started in the last four days and have continued. The other four are on-going threads that have been updated frequently with various posts. All but one of the threads was either updated by another post yesterday or today. That is only on the first page alone. So, it looks like phatmass’ VS doesn’t have the problem you have claimed it has: that there are only a “few” regular posters. How… unscientific of a comment to make.
Lets hope that all those that discern are “hard-core” perpetual discerners (taking very seriously the call of God in their lives and trying always -perpetually- to respond to that call).
As to the supposedly large amount of young people who are not at an age as to be able to even enter religious life or the priesthood: you might be interested in this thread here: phatmass.com/phorum/index.php?showtopic=81720&st=0&p=1576854&#entry1576854
It has polled, with in the last 10 days, the ages of the regular posters on phatmass. 61 members responded to it in those last 10 days. Hardly the ‘few’ you claim that post there. And what is even more interesting is that only two of those members are below the age of 18. I know both of those two. One is 15 and the other is 18, and the second I know to be in correspondence with a community and waiting to graduate so as to enter. 23 of the members were college age. 16 members ranged from the ages of 25-35, and 14 members were above 40. You have been very unscientific in your claims, and have spouted them out as if it was known or could be proven fact. It is has been very misleading. And it is, obviously, the farthest thing from fact.
And I stand by what I say. I mean, what else can one say after one has said* they sponser conferences with key speakers who are excommunicated priests*? What they have done is wrong. There is no working around it or trying to write it off. That piece of information speaks volumes about the community. They should be prayed for, but there can be no doubt - by their actions - that they are unfaithful to all the Church teaches, no matter which bishops have conveniently not done anything about their actions.
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IronHammer
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He clearly thinks he knows better than the Pope, the same Pope whom Christ gave us to lead us in right paths. This ‘christian’ is beyond reach. I am done with him also.
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LaudemGloriae
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Wow, defending Planned Parenthood, and supporting artificial birth control. It’s pretty obvious why you would have a problem with Phatmass and the teachings of the Holy Catholic Church.
You say the vast majority of Catholics in the US and Europe support artificial birth control … right, they’re not Catholics then. That’s a non-negotiationable issue.
Prayers for you
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1234
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Lots of phatmass posters ‘dip in’ on the weekend and many don’t post anything of substance, a lot simply voicing support or prayers but nothing else. There are only a few who post regularly on matters of substance. This is characteristic of all forums (fora?)–here on CAF, for example, there are thousands of people signed up, few who post regularly. I have watched the number of regular posters on Vocation Station (phatmass) decline significantly in recent years. Most significant is the fact that members of religious orders seldom post now. If they are looking for new members, Phat isn’t the place to look. One active discerner and the sister in charge of discernment at the order she’s considering, were very disturbed at a recent thread on Phat, regarding the activities of a laywomen who is trying to become a ‘foundress’, and whose activities, if not identity, are well known to phat regulars.
I think that discerners might do better on CAF’s vocations subforum ‘thread for women discerning religious life’, in that there is a greater range of those discerning and the orders discerned.
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1234
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I’m not defending PP. I am describing what they do, which is many things besides offering birth control and abortion services. I have never used PP or visited there or worked there.Wow, defending Planned Parenthood, and supporting artificial birth control. It’s pretty obvious why you would have a problem with Phatmass and the teachings of the Holy Catholic Church.
You say the vast majority of Catholics in the US and Europe support artificial birth control … right, they’re not Catholics then. That’s a non-negotiationable issue.
Prayers for you
Many, many Catholics ‘have a problem with the…teachings of the Holy Catholic Church.’ If this defines them as ‘not being Catholic’, then Catholicism is no longer the largest Christian denomination (is it anyway?–not sure). Catholicism has very little support in Europe. The non-support of the church’s position on birth control is well-documented, and I think has served as an opening wedge to a loss of support for the church in general. I am simply reporting what is widely recognized. None of this affects me directly, not PP, birth control or anything else.
That’s non-negotiable, not non-negotiationable.
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daughterofmary
Guest
Write it off however you please, the numbers remain. Acknowledge them or not, it doesn’t matter. Your comments were misleading, and it would be the truthful thing to do to just own up to it.
However, I went back to VS and counted how many of the threads were just “unsubstantial prayer requests” (cannot believe I am writing that… how in the world can a prayer request be “nothing of substance”) and there were only two on the opening 24. They were not written for prayer alone though, but in sharing the decisions two members have come to or are trying to come to in knowing God’s will and asking for advice and prayer. Other then that, there are no “numerous prayer requests” (seeing as Phatmass has an entire other phorum branch for that) but even if there honestly was (which there isn’t, once again, proving your comments were totally off-base to reality concerning phatmass) I am sure they would be appreciated and much prayed over by the suprisingly large, active (62) membership of those that consider themselves regulars at VS (as well as probably a good majority of the rest of phatmass).
God, in His wisdom, leads souls to and from phatmass. He is certainly the point of interest at VS, as Him and His will are the very things they are all trying to discern. If religious have not felt called for one reason or another to remain active members at VS, that has been God’s will. A number have entered religious life or gone on to college and find the time too busy or not appropriate to spend on an online phorum. The numbers of decline (if there are any) have nothing to do with the faithfulness of phatmass to the Church. Rather, there may even be some who have sadly left because of that faithfulness, which you keep trying to claim is not there or is smothered by some sort of flat our denial of Vatican II and ravings about the Mass in the Extraordinary Form (both comments being absoultely absurd in their untruthfulness to the character of phatmass). Phatmass is loyal to the Holy Father and loyal to the teachings of the Church in her entire. There are a great deal (as the poll admits) of people who consider themselves regular members. Everyone at VS’ constant return shows that there are more “substantial posts” then you care to admit.
EDIT: seeing as those at phatmass and VS are human beings and sin and some can be quite unkind, just as any other person can be, I cannot deny that perhaps some have left due to this. However, phatmass has mourned that loss, and does wish they would return, I am sure. However, I can only acknowledge a handful of instances where this has happened. Not the vast numbers you seem to speak of. VS, to my knowledge, has never had amazingly large numbers of religious posting on it in the past. There have been some,* possibly* (at one time) 10 or so, but little more.
As much as you probably dislike it VS is the most active forum when it comes to vocations and religious life on the web. I haven’t seen another that has been so helpful and full of loving and caring members. Your comments repeadtly have represented a phatmass I have never seen, which is probably due to the fact that the forum you speak phatmass as being does not exist. I encourage all of those who have read these half truths or untruths to go to VS and judge for themselves.
Once again, I repeat, you have done a great work of God (the establishment of that forum and the good it has done) a grave injustice here. I am sorry it has happened. Hopefully those considering religious life and looking for somewhere to go to talk about that and share will look over your posts on the subject, as they do not represent the truth of the matter.
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LaudemGloriae
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“Enter through the narrow gate; for the gate is wide and the road broad that leads to destruction, and those who enter through it are many. How narrow the gate and constricted the road that leads to life. And those who find it are few.” (Mt 7:13-14)
Woops, thanks for the correction!
I thought that looked a little long.
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LaudemGloriae
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This is uncalled for and misleading. All of what was said here is misleading to the nature of Phatmass. Members there certainly do not “cast a dim view on Vatican II.” They “rep Pope” my friend.
Johnny said it best when he said,
“hopefully you have found a vocation message board with a different personality that you can relate to, so that you don’t have to criticize Phatmass like you’ve done here… one less orthodox, less traditional. unfortunately,*** i know that none exist that is nearly as active, which, as much as you may hate it, points to the future of our Church.***”
And if you do reject Vatican II on PM you get labeled as “i don’t rep pope” Phatmass is awesome!
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1234
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1234
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The poll responses are misleading. That poll circulates now and then; I didn’t realize that it was still going. I answered it a few weeks (?months) ago. By circulating a recurring poll, you tend to get the entire age range of those who visit, not those who post frequently. In order to get an idea of the age ranges of those who post frequently, you’d have to obtain not only the ages but also the frequency of posting of the posters–a huge task, not up to the effort of the volunteers who staff Phat.
cara.georgetown.edu/bulletin/index.htm
Diocesan priests have declined (only) by 22% since 1965–not as bad as I thought. Religious priests have declined by 40+%, worse than I thought. The average age is high, I’ve heard, but I don’t know what it is.
Almost 6 times as many priest-less parishes as in 1965!
Stay tuned.
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My point is that, in the time I've been visiting on Phat, and only occasionally posting, I've watched the makeup of the frequent posters, who are supposedly discerning, change to sort of a bimodal distribution, the young and the 40-s-60's crowd, with a few in their 30's. Phat was designed by and for the so-called 'trad' Catholics, so it if wants to reflect only this point of view, let it, but in the course of my following it, it's cut a lot of others out, others who, as it turns out, are also discerning and entering religious life.
I still would love to see a more quantitative follow-up of those on the discerning list, both past and current.
Back to the priest shortage question. CARA is up this AM, and here:
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My reading of the stats is that it's worse for religious priests.
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The problem is that the Catholic population has increased by about forty-one percent! The number of parishes without a resident priest pastor has increased 5.89 FOLD (or 589%!)
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CARA says that new stats are coming out in mid-July. It will be interesting to see if there is much change.
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LaudemGloriae
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Just to let you know though, there are several people in VS discerning religious life and with upcoming entrance dates, that aren’t posting this in the Phatmass Vocations thread or anything - since it’s a public board, and maybe they’d rather keep that information off the internet. I know one, college age, entering this week, who has loved Vocation Station, and a few others with later entrance dates.
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daughterofmary
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Very true. I know a couple of these cases too.Just to let you know though, there are several people in VS discerning religious life and with upcoming entrance dates, that aren’t posting this in the Phatmass Vocations thread or anything - since it’s a public board, and maybe they’d rather keep that information off the internet. I know one, college age, entering this week, who has loved Vocation Station, and a few others with later entrance dates.
And to 1234:
And as to the thread being an old thread… it was posted 11 days ago, posted on June 19th. There is no way you could have answered it a month ago or that these stats are just so old and the people are gone or what not. It is only 11 days old, *not even two weeks. *
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1234
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It’s very justified to want to keep this sort of info private. And I do think that young’uns do like VS . I myself–ahem!-- have suggested that folks taking ‘nun runs’, usually the college-aged crowd, post their impressions on VS and PM their discerning friends they’ve made on VS privately with more pertinent details that may or may not be appropriate to post on VS, according to the interests of their friends. As gas is so $$, and as many don’t have a lot of time or money, this seemed to be a way for some discerners to get some sort of initial, fairly reliable impression.Just to let you know though, there are several people in VS discerning religious life and with upcoming entrance dates, that aren’t posting this in the Phatmass Vocations thread or anything - since it’s a public board, and maybe they’d rather keep that information off the internet. I know one, college age, entering this week, who has loved Vocation Station, and a few others with later entrance dates.
But when these folks do something more permanent, particularly make a final profession, if would be useful to know about it! The total numbers aren’t going to tell the story.
Another possible solution for the fact-gatherers and sociologists among us, is for the discerners to remain anonymous,* really *anonymous while their progress is being followed. It’s possible that down the road CARA might do something like this. They do an awful lot of studies, especially, I think, of the priesthood.
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