Is thinking about sex a sin?

[Fergal]

Thats not the same as thinking about sin.

Thinking about a woman lustfully brings about the sin of lust within the heart.

Thinking about lust does not make you guilty of it.

Thinking about the horror of murder does not make you guilty of it.

Thinking about sin does not implicate you in that sin nor does that sin stain your soul.

If you employ any of the seven deadly sins whilst thinking then you have crossed the barrier.

 

[E.E.N.S]

Fergal:

Thats not the same as thinking about sin.

Thinking about a woman lustfully brings about the sin of lust within the heart.

Thinking about lust does not make you guilty of it.

Thinking about the horror of murder does not make you guilty of it.

Thinking about sin does not implicate you in that sin nor does that sin stain your soul.

If you employ any of the seven deadly sins whilst thinking then you have crossed the barrier.

Read how the early church Fathers view this…true thinking about the horror of murder doesn’t make you guilty of sin, but thinking about murdering someone, and feeding that though absolutely does!
I am surprised at your thought process actually, as it’s pretty clear that the heart can convict a person, it’s not always the action that causes sin, it only compounds the matter.

 

[E.E.N.S]

Consented impure thoughts are not alway mortal sins, but they are at least always a venial sin.

 

[Fergal]

E.E.N.S.:

Read how the early church Fathers view this…true thinking about the horror of murder doesn’t make you guilty of sin, but thinking about murdering someone, and feeding that though absolutely does!

Exactly. Maybe I did not make myself clear. In order to ask God to preserve you from lust or from any of the deadly sins and vices, you have to know what they are right?

When a Priest gives a homily on the dangers of lust or any of the deadly sins or vices all, including himself, will be thinking of that vice or those vices. Does that mean that the Priest has implicated all including himself in sin?

Fr Angelus often talks on the dangers of pornography in his sermons on EWTN. He is thinkng of it then. Has he just sinned during the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass?
When we hear the word ‘pornography’ we get a thought. It does not always immediately lead to increase in sin.
E.E.N.S.:

I am surprised at your thought process actually, as it’s pretty clear that the heart can convict a person, it’s not always the action that causes sin, it only compounds the matter.

Well at least I don’t blanket with my statements. From your logic no matter when or how we have a thought on any of the deadly sins or vices they have impregnated themselves into your soul and you are in need of confession.

There are situations where thoughts when linked with emotive vice lead to hell and there are situations where thoughts are just that thoughts and they most certainly do not lead to death.

 

[DianJo]

I am going to recommend a book for you only I’m not sure of the title. It’s by Christopher West and he “translated” JPII’s Theology of the Body into easier reading. JPII was way up there in the way of theological thinking and Christopher West puts it in lay terms. The title could be something like, " John Paul II’s Theology of the Body" by Christopher West.

This book will give you a different way of thinking about sex, love and relationships and their proper context. It will talk about these topics in terms of how God meant for these things to be, with Him at the center of our relationships. Once your thinking changes or evolves and moves away from the secular bombardment, I feel like your “problem” will ease and you can control it better.

Anyway, just a suggestion. Good Luck!

 

[E.E.N.S]

Fergal:

Exactly. Maybe I did not make myself clear. In order to ask God to preserve you from lust or from any of the deadly sins and vices, you have to know what they are right?

When a Priest gives a homily on the dangers of lust or any of the deadly sins or vices all, including himself, will be thinking of that vice or those vices. Does that mean that the Priest has implicated all including himself in sin?

Fr Angelus often talks on the dangers of pornography in his sermons on EWTN. He is thinkng of it then. Has he just sinned during the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass?
When we hear the word ‘pornography’ we get a thought. It does not always immediately lead to increase in sin.

Well at least I don’t blanket with my statements. From your logic no matter when or how we have a thought on any of the deadly sins or vices they have impregnated themselves into your soul and you are in need of confession.

There are situations where thoughts when linked with emotive vice lead to hell and there are situations where thoughts are just that thoughts and they most certainly do not lead to death.

That’s not what I am saying at all (please re-read what I said)…I am saying if you indulge in these types of thoughts, NOT if they pop in your head or if you are explaining against them! That is as different as night and day…but forgive me if I didn’t make this clear enough.

 

[Saint_Andrew]

Hello

Interesting points, I think we are always going to battle on this one, because the devil is always tempting us.

The way women dress these days is deadly.

God Bless
Saint Andrew.

 

[E.E.N.S]

Every one who looks at a woman lustfully has already committed adultery with her in his heart.[299]

2514 St. John distinguishes three kinds of covetousness or concupiscence: lust of the flesh, lust of the eyes, and pride of life.[300] In the Catholic catechetical tradition, the ninth commandment forbids carnal concupiscence; the tenth forbids coveting another’s goods.

2515 Etymologically, “concupiscence” can refer to any intense form of human desire. Christian theology has given it a particular meaning: the movement of the sensitive appetite contrary to the operation of the human reason. The apostle St. Paul identifies it with the rebellion of the “flesh” against the “spirit.”[301] Concupiscence stems from the disobedience of the first sin. It unsettles man’s moral faculties and, without being in itself an offense, inclines man to commit sins.[302] 2516 Because man is a composite being, spirit and body, there already exists a certain tension in him; a certain struggle of tendencies between “spirit” and “flesh” develops. But in fact this struggle belongs to the heritage of sin. It is a consequence of sin and at the same time a confirmation of it. It is part of the daily experience of the spiritual battle:
For the Apostle it is not a matter of despising and condemning the body which with the spiritual soul constitutes man’s nature and personal subjectivity. Rather, he is concerned with the morally good or bad works, or better, the permanent dispositions - virtues and vices - which are the fruit of submission (in the first case) or of resistance (in the second case) to the saving action of the Holy Spirit. For this reason the Apostle writes: “If we live by the Spirit, let us also walk by the Spirit.”[303]

 

[E.E.N.S]

(cont…)

I. PURIFICATION OF THE HEART
2517 The heart is the seat of moral personality: “Out of the heart come evil thoughts, murder, adultery, fornication…”[304] The struggle against carnal covetousness entails purifying the heart and practicing temperance:
Remain simple and innocent, and you will be like little children who do not know the evil that destroys man’s life.[305]

2518 The sixth beatitude proclaims, “Blessed are the pure in heart, for they shall see God.”[306] “Pure in heart” refers to those who have attuned their intellects and wills to the demands of God’s holiness, chiefly in three areas: charity;[307] chastity or sexual rectitude;[308] love of truth and orthodoxy of faith.[309] There is a connection between purity of heart, of body, and of faith:
The faithful must believe the articles of the Creed “so that by believing they may obey God, by obeying may live well, by living well may purify their hearts, and with pure hearts may understand what they believe.”[310]

2519 The “pure in heart” are promised that they will see God face to face and be like him.[311] Purity of heart is the precondition of the vision of God. Even now it enables us to see according to God, to accept others as “neighbors”; it lets us perceive the human body - ours and our neighbor’s - as a temple of the Holy Spirit, a manifestation of divine beauty.

**II. THE BATTLE FOR PURITY **
2520 Baptism confers on its recipient the grace of purification from all sins. But the baptized must continue to struggle against concupiscence of the flesh and disordered desires. With God’s grace he will prevail

• by the virtue and gift of chastity, for chastity lets us love with upright and undivided heart;
• by purity of intention which consists in seeking the true end of man: with simplicity of vision, the baptized person seeks to find and to fulfill God’s will in everything;[312]
• by purity of vision, external and internal; by discipline of feelings and imagination; by refusing all complicity in impure thoughts that incline us to turn aside from the path of God’s commandments: “Appearance arouses yearning in fools”;[313]
• by prayer:
  I thought that continence arose from one’s own powers, which I did not recognize in myself. I was foolish enough not to know . . . that no one can be continent unless you grant it. For you would surely have granted it if my inner groaning had reached your ears and I with firm faith had cast my cares on you.[314]

2521 Purity requires modesty, an integral part of temperance. Modesty protects the intimate center of the person. It means refusing to unveil what should remain hidden. It is ordered to chastity to whose sensitivity it bears witness. It guides how one looks at others and behaves toward them in conformity with the dignity of persons and their solidarity.

2522 Modesty protects the mystery of persons and their love. It encourages patience and moderation in loving relationships; it requires that the conditions for the definitive giving and commitment of man and woman to one another be fulfilled. Modesty is decency. It inspires one’s choice of clothing. It keeps silence or reserve where there is evident risk of unhealthy curiosity. It is discreet.

2523 There is a modesty of the feelings as well as of the body. It protests, for example, against the voyeuristic explorations of the human body in certain advertisements, or against the solicitations of certain media that go too far in the exhibition of intimate things. Modesty inspires a way of life which makes it possible to resist the allurements of fashion and the pressures of prevailing ideologies.

2524 The forms taken by modesty vary from one culture to another. Everywhere, however, modesty exists as an intuition of the spiritual dignity proper to man. It is born with the awakening consciousness of being a subject. Teaching modesty to children and adolescents means awakening in them respect for the human person.

2525 Christian purity requires a purification of the social climate. It requires of the communications media that their presentations show concern for respect and restraint. Purity of heart brings freedom from widespread eroticism and avoids entertainment inclined to voyeurism and illusion.

2526 So called moral permissiveness rests on an erroneous conception of human freedom; the necessary precondition for the development of true freedom is to let oneself be educated in the moral law. Those in charge of education can reasonably be expected to give young people instruction respectful of the truth, the qualities of the heart, and the moral and spiritual dignity of man.

2527 “The Good News of Christ continually renews the life and culture of fallen man; it combats and removes the error and evil which flow from the ever-present attraction of sin. It never ceases to purify and elevate the morality of peoples. It takes the spiritual qualities and endowments of every age and nation, and with supernatural riches it causes them to blossom, as it were, from within; it fortifies, completes, and restores them in Christ.”[315]

 

[E.E.N.S]

(so in summary…)

IN BRIEF
2528 “Everyone who looks at a woman lustfully has already committed adultery with her in his heart” (Mt 5:28).

2529 The ninth commandment warns against lust or carnal concupiscence.

2530 The struggle against carnal lust involves purifying the heart and practicing temperance.

2531 Purity of heart will enable us to see God: it enables us even now to see things according to God.

2532 Purification of the heart demands prayer, the practice of chastity, purity of intention and of vision. 2533 Purity of heart requires the modesty which is patience, decency, and discretion. Modesty protects the intimate center of the person.

 

[Fergal]

E.E.N.S.:

That’s not what I am saying at all (please re-read what I said)…I am saying if you indulge in these types of thoughts, NOT if they pop in your head or if you are explaining against them! That is as different as night and day…but forgive me if I didn’t make this clear enough.

Ok so we are both saying the same thing!

 

[E.E.N.S]

Fergal, sorry, I guess sometimes I don’t take the time to proof read to make sure what I am saying is clear…(I am at work after all, lol.)

Thanks for putting up with me!

 

[tuopaolo]

An activity of the intellect is never in and of itself a sin – i.e. never instrinsically sinful. In this particular case we are dealing with the faculty of imagination which is a faculty of the intellect and thus never in and of itself sinful, i.e. never intrinsically sinful.

However certain acts of the imagination can be sinful by reason of the intention or the circumstances (such as if it is an occasion of sin or if it is distracting you from a duty). Certain acts of the imagination can also be closely associated with something sinful (and in these cases the acts themselves are often sinful by reason of a sinful intention to engage in that which is closely associated with them).

Here are some ways in which an act of the imagination can be sinful or at least closely associated with something sinful:

1. If what is imagined is an unlawful act (such as adultery) and one delights (meaning that one wills it or wills it in a hypothetical circumstance) in that act as imagined or one delights in the propsect of that act like as imagined.

a) So for example if one imagines engaging in adultery with someone and delights in the prospect of commiting adultery with her, then that is a sin.

b) Likewise if one imagines engaging in adultery with someone and delights in that imagined act even if there is no prospect of committing adultery with her, then it is a sin.

c) In theory if one imagined an unlawful act and did not delight in anything unlawful, it would not be a sin. In some cases (particular of a non-sexual nature) this is common. But in most cases dealing with the issues in this thread it is uncommon and may sometimes involve attempts at rationalization.

1. If what is imagined is not an unlawful act but one delights in a distinct act which is unlawful or one delights in the prospect of a distinct act which is unlawful.

a) So for example if one imagines a lawful act (such as a marital act) but at the same time delights in the prospect of an unlawful act (such as fornication before the wedding), then it would be a sin (OTOH if one imagines a lawful act (such as a marital act) and at the same time delights only in the prospect of lawful acts (such as the honeymoon), then it wouldn’t be a sin)

b) Likewise, if one imagines a lawful act (such as a marital act) but at the same time delights in an unlawful act even if this is only hypothetical, it would be a sin. Delighting in this distinct unlawful act would usually involve imagining an unlawful act and so would be covered under (1) but I suppose it is possible to do this without imagining it in which case it is covered here.

When a sinful intention to delight in something sinful underlies an act of the imagination then the act of the imagination itself, that is, in the context of the human act as a whole, is a sin. When there is no such sinful intention but one nevertheless ends up delighting in something sinful, then the act of delighting would be the sin. However in cases in which the two are closely associated (such as when what is imagined is the sinful act in which one is delighting), usually the decision to persist in the act of the imagination would involve an intention to continue in the sinful delighting in which case the act of the imagination is again sinful by intention. In other cases, the decision to persist would most likely involve a near occasion of sin and be sinful on that account (if it wasn’t already sinful on that account from the get go).

In summary:

1. Delighting in unlawful things is a sin.
2. Doing things (such as imagining certain things) for the sake of delighting in unlawful things is a sin.
3. Doing things knowing that there is a strong likelihood that it will lead to (1) or (2) or anything else that is sinful is a sin, unless it is something that cannot be readily avoided (which wouldn’t apply in this case since there is no practical difficulty posed by avoiding acts of the imagination – it’s not like you need to do it as part of your occupation unless I suppose if you are a romance novel writer or something like that)

 

[kev7]

When you die the lord will look IN your heart. If your heart is full of lust or sinfull thoughts (not actions) then you can only hope for his mercy.

James

12

Blessed is the man who perseveres in temptation, 6 for when he has been proved he will receive the crown of life that he promised to those who love him.

7 No one experiencing temptation should say, “I am being tempted by God”; for God is not subject to temptation to evil, and he himself tempts no one.
14
Rather, each person is tempted when he is lured and enticed by his own desire.
**15
Then desire conceives and brings forth sin, and when sin reaches maturity it gives birth to death. **

the action brings death it does not bring forth sin.

 

[cynic]

Grace and Glory:

I agree that in a situation when “thinking about sex”=“impure thought,” then dwelling on the thought is a sin. However, I want to point out that thinking about sex is not in itself a sin, because it is possible to think about sex without having impure thoughts. If a person is thinking about sex and fantasizing in order to gain pleasure from lust, this is obviously wrong. If a person is thinking about the unifying or procreative purpose of sex or the theology of the body, that would not be wrong. .

So thinking about sex with your wife is…? Nobody can give an explicit and rational definition of lust without going off onto some irrelevant tangent based on moral circumstances, rather than the thoughts themsleves. If someone is thinking about the ‘purpose’ of sex they are not really thinking about sex then are they? Not in the way most people would like to. Fantasies never involve the purpose, they are inherently about attraction and finding sexual satisfaction, so having fantasies or thoughts about your own wife must also be wrong then? Even though the circumstances of the relationship make moral sexual intercourse possible. What if you know someone of the opposite sex very well, genuinely like and care about them as a person, but your not married (yet), would sexual thoughts based on knwing them be wrong? Most people here would say yes, but when the circumstances change and you are married to them - such thoughts are ok?!?!? How does a different situation make the same thoughts any more or less acceptable? Don’t tell me the nature of those thoughts miraculousely changes, because I don’t believe it. If think it’s more to do with not being allowed to ‘want’ anything, even when you’re married you’re not allowed to find pleasure in being with the other, or thinking about that, only in the ‘purpose’. It’s puritan.

 

[Neithan]

While Catholicism is certainly a “thinking man’s religion” in that its depth is enough to satisfy the greatest of intellects, it is at its heart (as truth must be) perfectly simple.
Any sin is an act of man’s will; likewise a thought is sinful not when the person merely thinks of something sinful but when he wills it. A venial sin with respect to thoughts are those (in this particular case sexual) fantasies or whatever in which a certain pleasure is derived (say, from imagining fornication) but there still exists that ‘tug of war’ between the reason and the sense appetite. The person is still conscious of God and the sinfulness of their thought, but the desire to indulge in it is at least partially present. That is venial sin.

A mortal sin in thought occurs when there is full assent of the will toward the sin. If you totally give in to the thought, totally will it to happen; essentially if you abandon your reason in total favour of your lustful sense appetite (that ‘tug of war’ is no longer noticeable) and you forget about God during the thought, you totally abandon grace and revel in the sin you are thinking of. If you totally intend on carrying the thought out in word and/or deed were the circumstances permissible. . . that is a mortal sin. It cuts the grace out of you. It’s a pretty intense thing, too… not some ‘slip of the mind’, it’s actually a changing of your will. You know when a mortal sin has been committed; you can feel it, deep down, and any honest examination of conscience will reveal that.

What this means is that in order to have sinless thoughts, your will has to constantly be focused on the good, the Godly. To avoid mortal sin you must constantly be aware of God’s will, but to avoid venial sin you must be in perfect alignment with God’s will. The latter is superhuman and requires supernatural grace to achieve. You have to stop wanting to fornicate, masturbate etc. etc. in an absolute sense. Not even an inkling of desire. That is definitely difficult (to understate it), but it is our Christian duty to pursue. John Paul II’s Theology of the Body is an awesome tool to start you on the path. I browsed this website the other day (it is based on ToB) and I think it illustrates an excellent approach to this topic. The basic message is that our desire–sexual desire–is ultimately for God, regardless of its many myriad (and possibly perverse) manifestations. If we can recognize the true and ultimate object of our will (Beatific Vision), we can avoid the lesser distractions and strengthen our reasoning to resist temptation.

 

[Timidandunsure]

I have always had a problem with this view. I think like anything, it has to be taken in content.

It seems to be that there seems to be several views.

The first is very loose, where its your body, you can think and do what you like, because thats the way you were made. That of course has to be wrong, how perverse you become has to effect your soul and your relationship with God and how you treat and view and respect other people.

The second is a more restricted view, Where there is lines to cross, like pornography and fantasying adultry of someone you know. This is makes sense and you can see how this could easily be a sin.

The third is even tighter, this blocks even the relief of masterbation from sexual tension completely for what ever reason, leaving the person to struggle with more sexual thoughts and tension and impure thoughts of others. Mostly increased because of biology of the body and not so much active thought. The longer without sexual release, the more sexual desire, its not sin building up in you, but chemicals, and the person should use his faith to somehow overcome thier biology and umm stop it from working. Sounds self defeating.

The last is the extremeist, where anything to do with sex other than procreation in the most basic positions possible is acceptable. Like sex is some nasty thing best gotten over with quickly, like clipping your toenails. This is as bad as the first option to me, its erroring on the side of purity if you ask me, if that is possible. If being pure is good, then being super human pure is even better, and super duper pure is even better and if it isn’t, then at least you errored on the right side of the coin.

The problem I have, is there is allot of assuming on the subject. As for masterbation for examble. Where does it say, Though shall not masterbate. Ohh there is some terms about staying pure, and some about not lusting over a neighbors wife, there is that odd statement about loosing the seed upon the ground, but that was about avoiding pregnancy, from what I understand that is more about contraception.

Now take into account that our hormones change as we age, its very hard for a young man to resist, yet a man in his fifties might not even thing about sex for weeks, that doesn’t seem fair. If it was consious choice that was driving the desire, um why would it change. The truth is,its a biological problem.

Now we can all take drugs and kill our biological needs, until we get married (that sounds like a sin in itself, somehow) or we can just suffer and try to overcome our bodies.

You have to try to be mean, to cheat, to steal, to kill, there is no biological need forcing you to do these things. Since each person has differnt sexual desire and drive, how can thier sins both mean the same things as it is concerned to lust and thoughts and masterbation.

Sometimes I think this is the one area, where we might quite have it right. It is only my opionion, and hope God helps me to see the truth. The church has laid down the line on this, and I will do my best to meet those expectations, as superhuman as the demands seem to be.

Unless someone has some text that says straight out, Though shall not Masterbate" and not some interpetation of just keeping pure of the sins of the body, because thats like saying “Just be good” thats very broad…

of course that is my opinion, and something I have always struggled with…I am sure this will anger some, I mean no offense.

 

[PiusXIII]

I wasn’t thinking about sex before—but now I read this thread and I’m thinking about it! Thanks a lot!