Is this a Christian teaching?

[Jim_Baur]

Please do not laugh, I really do not know.

Did Jesus come to save all people?

Does God pour His love on all people?

Does God give all people a new heart and write His love on the new heart?

I guess the last question is the basic one for me, thanks!

THANKS!!!

 

[Gem]

Please do not laugh, I really do not know.

Did Jesus come to save all people?

Yes.

Does God pour His love on all people?

Does God give all people a new heart and write His love on the new heart?

I guess the last question is the basic one for me, thanks!

THANKS!!!

Yes, but not in equal measure. God spoke personally to some. Some have to be content with “believing without seeing”. Some received revelation directly; others need to be told by others (evangelization).

But God most assuredly wills that all people might come to Him through Jesus in some way.

 

[ryanoneil]

Please do not laugh, I really do not know.

Did Jesus come to save all people?

Does God pour His love on all people?

Yes.

Does God give all people a new heart and write His love on the new heart?

I guess the last question is the basic one for me, thanks!

THANKS!!!

Yes, if we do not resist His loving grace!

 

[Donald45]

Please do not laugh, I really do not know.

No laughter. It’s a very good question.

Does God give all people a new heart and write His love on the new heart?

St. Peter was asked a version of that very question:
"Now when they heard this they were cut to the heart, and said to Peter and the rest of the apostles, ‘Brethren, what shall we do?’" (Ac. 2:37).
And here was Peter’s answer:
"And Peter said to them, ‘Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins; and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit’" (v. 38).
In Catholic teaching, the sacrament of Baptism results in the forgiveness of sins and serves to initiate one into Christ’s Church. Involved in Baptism is an act of personal repentance, that is, a turning from sin to God. With Baptism and repentance comes the divine Holy Spirit to transform one into a “new creature” (2 Cor. 5:17) and to enable one to live a life pleasing to God.

As St. Peter tells us, by these means—Baptism/forgiveness/Spirit—God will certainly, as you write, “give all people a new heart and write His love on the new heart.” God bless.

Gaudium de veritate,

Cruciform
+T+

 

[Della]

I think you are asking about two different things: redemption and salvation.

Redemption is what Jesus gained for all men through his life, death and resurrection.

That redemptive act is what makes possible the salvation of all who avail themselves of the grace God poured out into the world because of the redemption.

Jesus told us those who are given much, much is expected of them. So, those of us who have the advantage of being members of Christ’s Church through baptism are expected to live the life of Christ before the world and to evangelize the world.

Those who don’t have the advantage of knowing Christ as we do will be judged according to how they availed themselves of the grace God gave to them. They are not as culpable as those of us who have the fullness of truth and have the sacraments to aid us towards salvation.

I hope that helps.

 

[Major_Tom]

Your first question was “Did Jesus come to save all people?”

I was born and raised Catholic, but I left the church post-college in part because I couldn’t adequately answer questions like this. I would assume that he did come to save everyone, but if so, why is it that so many people have never had a meaningful exposure to him? I’d estimate that hundreds of millions of people (at least) have never had a serious exposure to him. Now, if God so loved the world that he sent his only son to save them, why did he, or the Holy Spirit, not get the message to so many?

 

[DOShea]

I think He did get the word to many, but many of the many choose not to accept it for one reason or other. “Many are called, but few…”

Can’t speak for all of them, but I do know several people who don’t accept it and all of them don’t because they have a preconceived idea of what God must be, and if He doesn’t fit their mold, He is rejected. They have a humanist concept of God that puts limits on Him. He can be good all He wants, but He is not allowed to bring them any kind of trial or suffering, even if that results in their spiritual betterment, else it means doubt.

They don’t consider conforming themselves to God, only God must conform to what they believe. It’s very difficult to get people to alter their perspective on this.

 

[Della]

Your first question was “Did Jesus come to save all people?”

I was born and raised Catholic, but I left the church post-college in part because I couldn’t adequately answer questions like this. I would assume that he did come to save everyone, but if so, why is it that so many people have never had a meaningful exposure to him? I’d estimate that hundreds of millions of people (at least) have never had a serious exposure to him. Now, if God so loved the world that he sent his only son to save them, why did he, or the Holy Spirit, not get the message to so many?

Why didn’t God do what Jesus commissioned us to do, is what you’re asking. Why is it God’s responsibility to inform people of what they should be told by their fellow human beings? We are the ones who sinned, therefore, it is we who have to tell others that Jesus became one of us, died to redeem us, and that God has poured out his grace upon the whole world. That’s our job.

We all have to ask ourselves what we are doing to help our fellow men know the Gospel message. God sent his Son, God gave his only Son over to sinful men to be crucified, God’s Son walked among us for 33 years, teaching us and loving us as one of us, and he sent us out to bring his message and the sacraments, that bring us salvation to the rest of humanity.

People aren’t innocent bystanders with their hands in their pockets waiting for God to do what is our responsibility to do. It’s why the Church has sent out missionaries to every corner of the world. The Gospel has been met with hostility and violence, suppression and murder. Why? Because man is fallen and would rather live in the darkness than in the light. It’s painful to be transformed into the image of Christ. It means giving up one’s own notions and doing what God asks. Search your heart–isn’t that the truth? It’s certainly true in my heart.

 

[Major_Tom]

Why is it God’s responsibility to inform people of what they should be told by their fellow human beings?
Why? Because he loves us, doesn’t he?! That sounds like a jaded answer, especially when the core tenet of the New Testament is unconditional love. Do you have children? If you had pivotal, monumental, sensational, mind-blowing news for your own children…. Would you tell your daughter and leave out your son? That doesn’t make sense, unless you have favorites….

It also undercuts the importance of the act (what act is greater in the Bible?) by entrusting it to imperfect humans. It also seems hard to believe since the Holy Spirit is apparently so active in all other regards in the New Testament.

Those who don’t have the advantage of knowing Christ as we do will be judged according to how they availed themselves of the grace God gave to them.

I would agree. Now let’s think of all the ways that God has expressed himself to people…… If Jesus is the BEST way to knowing God, why would he communicate his BEST way to only SOME of the people?
I’d suggest then, that knowing God doesn’t have to be thru Jesus. But this would obviously undercut the primacy that the Church has placed on Jesus. Just sharing a thought that has always puzzled me……

 

[Della]

Why is it God’s responsibility to inform people of what they should be told by their fellow human beings?
Why? Because he loves us, doesn’t he?! That sounds like a jaded answer, especially when the core tenet of the New Testament is unconditional love. Do you have children? If you had pivotal, monumental, sensational, mind-blowing news for your own children…. Would you tell your daughter and leave out your son? That doesn’t make sense, unless you have favorites….

The fact is, as I wrote above and you have ignored, the Church has sent missionaries into the whole world. The only reason people haven’t heard it is their local governments won’t allow it. Therefore the fault is those governments’ not God’s nor the Church’s.

It also undercuts the importance of the act (what act is greater in the Bible?) by entrusting it to imperfect humans. It also seems hard to believe since the Holy Spirit is apparently so active in all other regards in the New Testament.

No it doesn’t. The Holy Spirit is acting in the world, through the Church as well as in human hearts. As I also wrote, and you are once again ignoring, the grace of God has been poured out into the WHOLE world because Christ’s redemptive act made that possible. Therefore, no one can say God didn’t give him grace for salvation. God has done this to prepare the way for the Gospel message. We are the ones who have to take it to them. God is not obligated to do what we human beings are responsible to do.

Those who don’t have the advantage of knowing Christ as we do will be judged according to how they availed themselves of the grace God gave to them.

I would agree. Now let’s think of all the ways that God has expressed himself to people…… If Jesus is the BEST way to knowing God, why would he communicate his BEST way to only SOME of the people?
I’d suggest then, that knowing God doesn’t have to be thru Jesus. But this would obviously undercut the primacy that the Church has placed on Jesus. Just sharing a thought that has always puzzled me……

Again, no it doesn’t. God has not communicated the best way of knowing him to only a few people. You are simply ignoring the facts here. The Church has martyrs from every corner of the world. How did that happen if the Church hadn’t sent missionaries there? Once again, it is men who fight against God’s efforts to reach out to them. Jesus himself said that even if one came back from the dead he would not be believed. People themselves fight against the Gospel message, as I also wrote. Each of us who do know the Gospel message will be accountable before God for what we did with that knowledge. We can’t wiggle our way out of our responsibility by simply saying God should have done what we human beings, in justice, should have done.

 

[Major_Tom]

“The fact is, as I wrote above and you have ignored, the Church has sent missionaries into the whole world. The only reason people haven’t heard it is their local governments won’t allow it. Therefore the fault is those governments’ not God’s nor the Church’s.”

With respect, I think that logic is awful. And yes, I heard you the first time. At a minimum, I’d estimate well over a billion people have not had exposure to Jesus since his birth. That many souls, all because “local governments won’t allow it?” I’m incredulous. “You’re ignoring the facts here”. Please. Evangelizers have hit every island in Micronesia? Covered all the Mayans and Central Americans circa 1000 CE? Come on.

I disagree and my first analogy stands. I’ll adjust it slightly. You have ten children. You have wonderful, life-changing, joyous news to share with them! So you tell ONE… and tell him that he better tell the other nine. He doesn’t, and the nine come back to you and ask why they didn’t get the good news. You reply, “I am not obligated to do what those other human beings are responsible to do”. As I stated the first time, this puzzles me.

Alright, now I acknowledge that you mentioned that Jesus commissioned us to execute this plan.

I do agree with you ( I think) when you say that God expresses himself to all. Let’s explore this a minute. Let’s start with someone who has never heard of Jesus (let’s call him Bob). God has expressed himself to Bob in some way other than Jesus. I assume you would agree that the heaven that Bob can attain is equal to the heaven that you can attain, even though he “started with less”? Agreed? You reference the grace of god, which I may not understand. Does this mean that, through the grace of God, Bob needs to find his way to Jesus, specifically? Or can he attain heaven by working with whatever he’s given (but not Jesus?)

Let’s move on to me. I’ve heard the Good News, but I do not believe that Jesus is the Son of God. The Bible is inspired literature, but I do not believe that the Holy Spirit stood over the shoulders of its authors and guided its development. Nonetheless, I read the Gospels and find the life of Jesus inspiring. Keep in mind, I aspire to living my life in ways that I would guess are similar to your ideals: loving my neighbor as myself, etc.

What fate awaits me? As “one who was given much”, can I attain the same heaven that you and Bob can?

 

[thistle]

“The fact is, as I wrote above and you have ignored, the Church has sent missionaries into the whole world. The only reason people haven’t heard it is their local governments won’t allow it. Therefore the fault is those governments’ not God’s nor the Church’s.”

With respect, I think that logic is awful. And yes, I heard you the first time. At a minimum, I’d estimate well over a billion people have not had exposure to Jesus since his birth. That many souls, all because “local governments won’t allow it?” I’m incredulous. “You’re ignoring the facts here”. Please. Evangelizers have hit every island in Micronesia? Covered all the Mayans and Central Americans circa 1000 CE? Come on.

I disagree and my first analogy stands. I’ll adjust it slightly. You have ten children. You have wonderful, life-changing, joyous news to share with them! So you tell ONE… and tell him that he better tell the other nine. He doesn’t, and the nine come back to you and ask why they didn’t get the good news. You reply, “I am not obligated to do what those other human beings are responsible to do”. As I stated the first time, this puzzles me.

Alright, now I acknowledge that you mentioned that Jesus commissioned us to execute this plan.

I do agree with you ( I think) when you say that God expresses himself to all. Let’s explore this a minute. Let’s start with someone who has never heard of Jesus (let’s call him Bob). God has expressed himself to Bob in some way other than Jesus. I assume you would agree that the heaven that Bob can attain is equal to the heaven that you can attain, even though he “started with less”? Agreed? You reference the grace of god, which I may not understand. Does this mean that, through the grace of God, Bob needs to find his way to Jesus, specifically? Or can he attain heaven by working with whatever he’s given (but not Jesus?)

Let’s move on to me. I’ve heard the Good News, but I do not believe that Jesus is the Son of God. The Bible is inspired literature, but I do not believe that the Holy Spirit stood over the shoulders of its authors and guided its development. Nonetheless, I read the Gospels and find the life of Jesus inspiring. Keep in mind, I aspire to living my life in ways that I would guess are similar to your ideals: loving my neighbor as myself, etc.

What fate awaits me? As “one who was given much”, can I attain the same heaven that you and Bob can?

As you say you have heard the good news then invincible ignorance does not apply to you. You have consciously denied that Jesus is God. If you die unrepentent in your belief that Jesus is not God then you condemn yourself to Hell.
Doing good works to your fellow man throughout your life will not gain you salvation. These works have no merit if you reject Christ.

 

[Della]

“The fact is, as I wrote above and you have ignored, the Church has sent missionaries into the whole world. The only reason people haven’t heard it is their local governments won’t allow it. Therefore the fault is those governments’ not God’s nor the Church’s.”

With respect, I think that logic is awful. And yes, I heard you the first time. At a minimum, I’d estimate well over a billion people have not had exposure to Jesus since his birth. That many souls, all because “local governments won’t allow it?” I’m incredulous. “You’re ignoring the facts here”. Please. Evangelizers have hit every island in Micronesia? Covered all the Mayans and Central Americans circa 1000 CE? Come on.

I disagree and my first analogy stands. I’ll adjust it slightly. You have ten children. You have wonderful, life-changing, joyous news to share with them! So you tell ONE… and tell him that he better tell the other nine. He doesn’t, and the nine come back to you and ask why they didn’t get the good news. You reply, “I am not obligated to do what those other human beings are responsible to do”. As I stated the first time, this puzzles me.

Alright, now I acknowledge that you mentioned that Jesus commissioned us to execute this plan.

I do agree with you ( I think) when you say that God expresses himself to all. Let’s explore this a minute. Let’s start with someone who has never heard of Jesus (let’s call him Bob). God has expressed himself to Bob in some way other than Jesus. I assume you would agree that the heaven that Bob can attain is equal to the heaven that you can attain, even though he “started with less”? Agreed? You reference the grace of god, which I may not understand. Does this mean that, through the grace of God, Bob needs to find his way to Jesus, specifically? Or can he attain heaven by working with whatever he’s given (but not Jesus?)

Let’s move on to me. I’ve heard the Good News, but I do not believe that Jesus is the Son of God. The Bible is inspired literature, but I do not believe that the Holy Spirit stood over the shoulders of its authors and guided its development. Nonetheless, I read the Gospels and find the life of Jesus inspiring. Keep in mind, I aspire to living my life in ways that I would guess are similar to your ideals: loving my neighbor as myself, etc.

What fate awaits me? As “one who was given much”, can I attain the same heaven that you and Bob can?

You are laboring under the idea that knowledge of Christ equals salvation. It doesn’t. It certainly doesn’t in your case. You know about Christ and yet you have rejected him. You should be more concerned about that then about those who have never heard the Gospel and so are not culpable before God, as you are.

The Church tells us the status of those who have never heard the Gospel in the Catechism of the Catholic Church (which you should read to answer your questions if you haven’t):

“Outside the Church there is no salvation”
846 How are we to understand this affirmation, often repeated by the Church Fathers?335 Re-formulated positively, it means that all salvation comes from Christ the Head through the Church which is his Body:
Basing itself on Scripture and Tradition, the Council teaches that the Church, a pilgrim now on earth, is necessary for salvation: the one Christ is the mediator and the way of salvation; he is present to us in his body which is the Church. He himself explicitly asserted the necessity of faith and Baptism, and thereby affirmed at the same time the necessity of the Church which men enter through Baptism as through a door. Hence they could not be saved who, knowing that the Catholic Church was founded as necessary by God through Christ, would refuse either to enter it or to remain in it.336
847 This affirmation is not aimed at those who, through no fault of their own, do not know Christ and his Church:
Those who, through no fault of their own, do not know the Gospel of Christ or his Church, but who nevertheless seek God with a sincere heart, and, moved by grace, try in their actions to do his will as they know it through the dictates of their conscience - those too may achieve eternal salvation.337
848 "Although in ways known to himself God can lead those who, through no fault of their own, are ignorant of the Gospel, to that faith without which it is impossible to please him, the Church still has the obligation and also the sacred right to evangelize all men."338

No one is saved apart from Christ. How is that possible if they have never heard of him? It is possible (not assured) because Christ’s redemptive life, death and resurrection extended God’s saving grace to all mankind. Every person has access to God’s grace for salvation. If this really is your big sticking point, it only exists in your mind. God is not unjust or unfair nor does he expect impossible things. His grace can reach anyone anywhere. He gave his only begotten Son to the world, not just to Israel, or Europe. or America–but to the whole world.

It is your own state of grace you need to be concerned with before anyone else’s. You have accused God of being unjust by claiming his Church, his Body on earth is unjust. It isn’t. You need to acknowledge this is true and go on from there.

 

[Major_Tom]

*It is your own state of grace you need to be concerned with before anyone else’s. *

Ummm, so I can’t have an opinion until I get my spiritual house in order? Or until you deem that I have my house in order? You’re entitled to your opinion, but I’ll decide what I NEED to be concerned with.

You have accused God of being unjust by claiming his Church, his Body on earth is unjust. It isn’t. You need to acknowledge this is true and go on from there.

I need acknowledge no such thing! And I haven’t accused God of being unjust. I’ve accused you and your Church of having the arrogance to claim to be his lone spokesperson.
I believe we’ve hit our philosophical fork in the road. It’s struck me while reading several other threads also.
Your logic (I should say the Church’s logic) is that the Holy Spirit has guided the hands of the Bible writers, philosophers, Popes, etc., and as such, the Church has unquestionable teaching. But without belief in the Trinity, this structure simply falls apart. The writers of the Bible books become well-intentioned believers, retelling stories about a man that they admire, embellishing them as they see fit. And they are just as fallible as you and I. So no matter how many times you quote a Gospel to prove your point, it doesn’t reinforce the point any better. I think this is where frustration grows, not only for non-Catholics like me, but for believers like you and many other posters. I’m guessing that there are several of you who sometimes think, “Wow, how many Biblical passages do we have to cite for these people before they believe us?” Am I right….?

I’m not sure if I expect you to be humbler…frankly, I’m not sure what I’m trying to convey to you. I’ve read several tolerant responses in these boards, for which I’m grateful, and several very close-minded responses… I think your tone borders on the pompous and it compelled me to respond!

 

[Della]

You have accused God of being unjust by claiming his Church, his Body on earth is unjust. It isn’t. You need to acknowledge this is true and go on from there.*

I need acknowledge no such thing! And I haven’t accused God of being unjust. I’ve accused you and your Church of having the arrogance to claim to be his lone spokesperson.

Here is a misunderstanding, for starters. The Church does not claim to be God’s “lone spokesperson” and neither do I or did I. What it claims is the fullness of truth subsists within it. And what does that mean? It means that everything anyone needs to know/do for salvation is within the Catholic Church. It doesn’t mean that other Christian ecclesial bodies have no truth, or even non-Christian religions, for that matter. Man knows there are basics truths and ethics, that’s called natural law, so everyone has some idea of truth. As for non-Catholic Christian bodlies, they too have much truth in them, but not the fullness of truth. That’s what we are saying.

I believe we’ve hit our philosophical fork in the road. It’s struck me while reading several other threads also.
Your logic (I should say the Church’s logic) is that the Holy Spirit has guided the hands of the Bible writers, philosophers, Popes, etc., and as such, the Church has unquestionable teaching. But without belief in the Trinity, this structure simply falls apart. The writers of the Bible books become well-intentioned believers, retelling stories about a man that they admire, embellishing them as they see fit. And they are just as fallible as you and I. So no matter how many times you quote a Gospel to prove your point, it doesn’t reinforce the point any better. I think this is where frustration grows, not only for non-Catholics like me, but for believers like you and many other posters. I’m guessing that there are several of you who sometimes think, “Wow, how many Biblical passages do we have to cite for these people before they believe us?” Am I right….?