Is this a correct teaching of our faith?

[for_eternity]

I have a question about sinning. A very knowledgeable man in the Catholic faith that I know told me that if a person is in danger of his or her life, or of being physically hurt in some way, and is forced into an act that is sinful- then they will not be blamed for that sin, and do not need to confess it, because it was beyond their will to avoid it. I heard this and thought that makes sense to me, someone should not be blamed for something that was out of their control…

But then I started reading on a thread talking about these chips that people may be forced to have under their skin in the not so distant future, and how many people believe this could be the sign of the beast. It clearly states in the book of revelation how we are to avoid the mark of the beast, and our salvation depends on this. That we may have to martyr ourselves for the sake of God.

Now if it makes this point so clearly in the bible about how many will have much suffering, loss, and death because they will not take the mark of the beast, shouldn’t this same thinking hold true in the prior circumstance? It doesn’t say anything in the bible like it is O.k. to take the mark of the beast if it means saving your life. Was this man that told me that wrong? When I compare it with the latter, it seems a bit too lineant. Are we held accountable for sins we commit that we are forced into? It says in the bible that God will not allow temptation towards you beyond what he gives you means to handle. That you should run. That seems to apply for the latter, but does it also apply to the first circumstance?

I guess I’m really just trying to figure out if what this man told me is a correct catholic teaching.

 

[RyanL]

Good question.

In order for a sin to be mortal, three conditions must apply:
a. Grave matter - a sin must be sufficiently serious as to be a mortal sin (typically, the ten commandments are the best guide).
b. Full knowledge that what you’re doing is a “grave matter”.
c. Full consent of the will (you cannot be forced into a grave sin).

Your friend is correct in that you have not satisfied element “c”. In fact, I would question if element “a” or “b” apply here either, if you’re just talking about getting a chip implanted (for…say…medical identification, like that you have diabetes or epilepsy).

That said, if “a” and “b” are satisfied, and you* know* that this is the “mark of the beast”, you are bound not to get it. If you are held down and they implant it without your consent, you are not to blame. If they threaten you with death if you don’t take it…well…I can’t think of a single Christian martyr who didn’t have the option of the “easy way out”.

Finally, I recommend picking up the book “Will Catholics be Left Behind” (ignatius.com/ViewProduct.aspx?SID=1&Product_ID=260&AFID=12& ). I recommend it because this particular question of yours smacks of Tim Lehay and the not-Catholic teaching of the “Rapture” (as viewed in the Protestant dispensationalist interpretation). If you still have questions after reading this book, I’ll be mighty surprised! For a good treatment of Revelations, I recommend “The Lamb’s Supper” by Dr. Scott Hahn. If you’ve never heard of him, you’re in for a real treat!

May the peace of our Lord Jesus Christ be with you always,
RyanL

 

[marmee79]

Microchip in the arm a sign of the beast? Has it come to that? We creatures have all sorts of stints implanted in our bodies to live. Live daily and quit worrying about someone making you sin. God knows your heart.

Marmee 79

 

[marty1818]

I agree with Ryan. Another good book is the Rapture Trap by Paul Thingpen.

matt

 

[UKcatholicGuy]

RyanL:

Good question.

In order for a sin to be mortal, three conditions must apply:
a. Grave matter - a sin must be sufficiently serious as to be a mortal sin (typically, the ten commandments are the best guide).
b. Full knowledge that what you’re doing is a “grave matter”.
c. Full consent of the will (you cannot be forced into a grave sin).

Not trying to nitpick, but I just wanted to clarify the “full knowledge” requirement. Full knowledge does not mean knowledge that an act is grave matter, but only that it is sinful.

From the Catechism p. 1859:

Mortal sin requires full knowledge and free consent. It presupposes knowledge of the sinful character of the act, of its opposition to God’s law.

 

[Scott_Waddell]

UKcatholicGuy:

Not trying to nitpick, but I just wanted to clarify the “full knowledge” requirement. Full knowledge does not mean knowledge that an act is grave matter, but only that it is sinful.

From the Catechism p. 1859:

Right. And if I am not mistaken, the CCC also mentions that there are some natural laws written on the heart that one cannot claim intellectual ignorance of.

Scott

 

[for_eternity]

Ryan- I have not heard of or read anything by Tim Lehay. Actually the book I came across was in a Catholic gift/book store. It was written by John Leary, “Prepare for the Great Tribulation and the Era of Peace”. If anyone knows anything about this mans reputation I would welcome any feed back . The only other place I’ve heard about these chips corolating with the mark of the beast was actually on this CAF. Some very knowledgable people that I have respect for their posts/opinion they’ve made, seem to think this is an issue that we should think about. That’s the only reason I brought this up.

Someone just last week recommended to me the book by Scott Hahn you mentioned and I ordered it the other day. Thanks for your help.

Marmee- I do live daily, and am not being overly pessimistic. But I think it very important that we know in actulality what is a sin and what isn’t. I was still unclear about this particular issue, that’s why I asked. I’ve very recently realized the grave importance of the sacrament of reconciliation. I’m trying my best to live my life in a way that I can reduce my sins to the minimal possible for me, that is why I am concerned about this.
Thanks for the replys/help. I appreciate people’s (name removed by moderator)ut on this- good or bad

 

[RyanL]

UKcatholicGuy:

Not trying to nitpick, but I just wanted to clarify the “full knowledge” requirement. Full knowledge does not mean knowledge that an act is grave matter, but only that it is sinful.

From the Catechism p. 1859:

UK,
Thank you for the correction! It is my desire to know the mind of the Church, and I welcome guidance and instruction.

I knew I should have quoted the CCC on this! Silly me…

Also, the Tim Lehay bit I was talking about was the “Left Behind” series. They’ve sold millions of books within the last few years, and it’s gotten a lot of folks talking about things they haven’t personally looked into (like whether or not the Rapture is biblical). Hope I didn’t offend. Unfortunately, I’m not familiar with the book/author you cited - hopefully someone else is.

Blessings,
RyanL

 

[Rand_Al_Thor]

marmee79:

Microchip in the arm a sign of the beast? Has it come to that? We creatures have all sorts of stints implanted in our bodies to live. Live daily and quit worrying about someone making you sin. God knows your heart.

Marmee 79

I believe the microchip they are referring to is one that will have all your information in it for financial reasons. This makes sense, because Revelation clearly states that “no one will be able to buy or sell without it”.

 

[Island_Oak]

for eternity:

I have a question about sinning…
But then I started reading on a thread talking about these chips that people may be forced to have under their skin in the not so distant future, and how many people believe this could be the sign of the beast. It clearly states in the book of revelation how we are to avoid the mark of the beast, and our salvation depends on this.

I am no expert on Revelations, the mark of the Beast, encoded microchips or other such fodder for fantasy–though I have encountered those who believe cleft lips are the “mark of the Beast” if you can stand that one–but on a more worldy level–I have a hard time imagining wide scale “forced” implantation of microchips in the populace. It violates the letter and spirit of the Consitituion including in particular the first and 4th Amendments. We can’t universally force people to submit to vaccinations, nor quarantine those with AIDS–both demonstrated public health risks–how do you imagine that non-toxic information encoded on a chip will be deemed so essential as to up-end that legal protection? I know many disillusioned with one issue or another before the courts will take aim at this, but change IS slow to evolve and you’re talking quantum leaps of logic here.

 

[Friar_David_O.Carm]

RyanL:

Good question.

In order for a sin to be mortal, three conditions must apply:
a. Grave matter - a sin must be sufficiently serious as to be a mortal sin (typically, the ten commandments are the best guide).
b. Full knowledge that what you’re doing is a “grave matter”.
c. Full consent of the will (you cannot be forced into a grave sin).

Your friend is correct in that you have not satisfied element “c”. In fact, I would question if element “a” or “b” apply here either, if you’re just talking about getting a chip implanted (for…say…medical identification, like that you have diabetes or epilepsy).

That said, if “a” and “b” are satisfied, and you* know* that this is the “mark of the beast”, you are bound not to get it. If you are held down and they implant it without your consent, you are not to blame. If they threaten you with death if you don’t take it…well…I can’t think of a single Christian martyr who didn’t have the option of the “easy way out”.

Looking at it this way, you might not be guilty of a grave sin, but you are guilty of sin none the less.

 

[for_eternity]

Island Oak:

I have a hard time imagining wide scale “forced” implantation of microchips in the populace. It violates the letter and spirit of the Consitituion including in particular the first and 4th Amendments. We can’t universally force people to submit to vaccinations, nor quarantine those with AIDS–both demonstrated public health risks–how do you imagine that non-toxic information encoded on a chip will be deemed so essential as to up-end that legal protection? I know many disillusioned with one issue or another before the courts will take aim at this, but change IS slow to evolve and you’re talking quantum leaps of logic here.

If you read John Leary’s book… Prepare for the Great Tribulation and the Era of Peace Volume XXXI. He explains in great detail how this could happen. What is said seems to make sense, and he says it much more eloquently than I’m able to. (if you want me to quote some things from the book, let me know and when I have more time I will.) I am still willing to listen to any (name removed by moderator)ut any one has to offer on this man. I just know I read this book and it really gave me something to think about. I stumbled across it kind of oddly. I had no idea from looking at the cover that it talked so much about these chips. But ironically it was shortly after having read threads about them on this forum. What he says in here, corresponds to what has also been said on this forum.

I am a bit leary about reading books about faith from authors that either are not saints or do not have the Imprimatur. It states in this book that the Imprimatur is not required in private revelations. So I guess what that’s saying is you can take this for what you want. A person won’t be able to prove if these revelations are true, but after reading what he wrote in this book in the year 2003, it does seem like things are unfolding as was shown to him.

Really, the main reason I started this thread was just to use this possible chip theory as a comparison to the much more minor (in some instances) issues that happen every day concerning this same thinking… Is it still our responsibility to get out of a situatioin, no matter how dire, to stop from sinning- whether that mean physical harm, mental/emotional distress, or death? Some people say that if it endangers your life, or endangers you of some sort of physical persecution, than you are not at fault- but in this implanted chip instance that some believe to be fortold symbolically in the bible that doesn’t seem to be the case. That’s why I was wondering about this particular teaching of our faith.

 

[marmee79]

for eternity:

Marmee- I do live daily, and am not being overly pessimistic. But I think it very important that we know in actulality what is a sin and what isn’t. I was still unclear about this particular issue, that’s why I asked. I’ve very recently realized the grave importance of the sacrament of reconciliation. I’m trying my best to live my life in a way that I can reduce my sins to the minimal possible for me, that is why I am concerned about this.
Thanks for the replys/help. I appreciate people’s (name removed by moderator)ut on this- good or bad

I too believe that the sacrament of penance is one of the greatest gifts our Church has established through Christ. I have a confessor and I use the same one most of the time. I have been told that I had developed scruples. I thought that this was a good thing but it isn’t because then I became a victims of my vices always keeping count predetermining my every move or evaluating itand I couldnt keep a clear mind or focus on the pure heart our Lord so wants us too have. Sometimes though we also have to die to our virtues and I think that I developed scruples because I was so judgmental of others and the Lord turned it around and said look at the splinter in your own eye first.
I have been called a lot of things crazy, :>) but in my opinion the mark of the beast is real ( I think I am contridicting myself )but I believe it is given by the government and I don’t know if it is forced because I think it could be like a welfare chip you know or an options card and how do those people protect themselves. Did they choose to get laid off? Or live the luxiourious life our government gives welfare recepients. (sarcasm) our government is so screwed. Thank goodness we have Mother Church.
I use too worry about it me and my girlfriends would set around and talk about how the end was going to be like in the 1800’s and we would be forced to take the mark just to put food on the table to keep our children alive. You can only do your best and I hope you don’t think I was critizing you. My priest friend tells me to live today so when your maker comes you’ll be ready.
And I agree we need to know what sins are what. But we live by faith not by sight. If your breaking the law in the catecishm it says it’s a sin . But the gravity is taken with you to the confessional as the priest in Jesus place, absolves or passes judgement. Luckily we don’t have to judge the persons heart and we have confession.YOu should find yourself a spirtual director and good confessor. It is very humbling. Karl Meniger wrote a book called Whatever Happened to Sin. good educational reading.
I probabaly wont write you back cause I just am not really into this type of thing but every once in a while I sound off loosely. I leave you with this thought.
.....Act justly .....love tenderly ....walk humbly with your God. Micah 6:8

 

[Island_Oak]

for eternity:

If you read John Leary’s book… Prepare for the Great Tribulation and the Era of Peace Volume XXXI. He explains in great detail how this could happen. What is said seems to make sense, and he says it much more eloquently than I’m able to.

You are spending way too much time in fantasy land. Perhaps the mystical is too much for you to digest at this stage of your life/faith. It may even be a negative distraction from the tasks of your real life. Keep your feet on the ground–people have been afraid of the sky falling and discerning symbolic warnings for thousands of years. This is certainly NOT a pressing threat to your current existence–and in fact you encounter many more tangible threats to your purity and relationship with God in your daily routine. Discern these challenges and be vigilant against them.

 

[for_eternity]

Island Oak:

You are spending way too much time in fantasy land. Perhaps the mystical is too much for you to digest at this stage of your life/faith. It may even be a negative distraction from the tasks of your real life…

It’s fine to share opinions, but you talk as if you know me and presume to know where I am in my faith by a few posts I make. Please don’t assume. I do not care to share many of the things that have happened in my life to bring me to believe in these mystical occurances, but I will tell you that you do not understand where I am in my faith life. It’s easy to presume, and easy to forget that we do not know these people who post here or their past experiences, but it’s always a good idea to try to be charitable. If I misunderstood your post, please forgive me.

God bless you

 

[puzzleannie]

for eternity:

I

But then I started reading on a thread talking about these chips that people may be forced to have under their skin in the not so distant future, and how many people believe this could be the sign of the beast. It clearly states in the book of revelation how we are to avoid the mark of the beast, and our salvation depends on this. That we may have to martyr ourselves for the sake of God.
.

it does NOT state clearly in the book of Revelation that the mark of the beast consists of microchips planted under the skin, barcodes, the internet, or any other artifact of modern technology. Anyone who claims that Catholic teaching identifies the so-called mark of the beast this way is lying, so I would hold everything else this person tells you in suspicion until you clear it with someone with teaching authority-your pastor or bishop.
The 3 conditions for an act to be a sin are that first it be objectively sinful and of grave matter, that you know the act is sinful and its gravity, and that you act deliberately and willfully to do the sin, not under compulsion. If any of those conditions are missing the act is either not sinful or your culpability is diminished.

 

[Island_Oak]

for eternity:

It’s fine to share opinions, but you talk as if you know me and presume to know where I am in my faith by a few posts I make. Please don’t assume…

You reveal yourself by your communication–written, verbal or physical–and people naturally make judgments about you based on them. Something to consider before you assume you are operating in a vacuum. I meant no offense–only that you seem to have followed biblical mysticism and symbolism to an unusual conclusion. I was suggesting that particularly when the focus is demonic symbolism, this can become an unhealthy distraction.

 

[for_eternity]

puzzleannie:

it does NOT state clearly in the book of Revelation that the mark of the beast consists of microchips planted under the skin, barcodes, the internet, or any other artifact of modern technology. Anyone who claims that Catholic teaching identifies the so-called mark of the beast this way is lying, so I would hold everything else this person tells you in suspicion until you clear it with someone with teaching authority-your pastor or bishop.
.

It doesn’t say specifically that there will be a microchip, but when is the bible ever that specific really? The mark of the beast is how it is put. So saying that therefor this man is lying might not be a fact that you can prove.

The book was edited by his spiritual director, and went through by the bishop prior to printing. He was told by the bishop that there were things he needed to omit and did, but is not allowed to go into further detail about the nature of what it was. So basically this book was gone over, it isn’t something that was just written on a whim.