Is this a litergical abuse?

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6glargento

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I’ve grown up in my parish my whole life and never questioned the way that the mass was done, but after comparing it to other church’s masses i noticed a few things.

-our church has no stained glass windows
  • it is shaped like an octagonal pyramid
-there is no crucifix on the alter, only a cross with jesus standing infront of it.
  • im pretty shure that they use guitars
  • the songs are very childish and sound very protestant. some songs were written by reformers like john wesley, some songs encourage us to clap our hands and stomp our feet.
  • at the “lamb of God” the choir says:
    “jesus lamb of God…Jesus bread of life…Jesus saving God”
  • the priet sometimes adlibs things such as instead of saying “this is the lamb of God who takes away the sins of the world, happy are we who are called to his supper”
-tabernacle is off to the side in an enclosed chapel
  • alter servers look sloppy, with casual clothes and tennis shoes under their garments
he said “this is the bread of life who died for us and rose again” or something like that.

looking back, things were much worse, there used to be holding hands at the our father and litergical dancers on occasions
(i think that they still do this at the grade school masses) They also have more “feel good” songs.

Would this be considered litergical abuses?
 
Liturgical abuse may be priest changing prayers. No crucifix by altar. The rest sounds like sloppiness or lack of reverence.
 
6glargento, let me give you a piece of advice. Most of the things you have described are fairly minor, and some of them are no more than matters of personal taste. If you let yourself get caught up in looking for liturgical abuses, you will miss the whole point of being at Mass. The greatest thing that ever happened in the history of the world is unfolding before you - don’t ruin it for yourself by becoming the “liturgy police.”

Some abuses are so serious that they jeopardize the validity of the Mass, and of course they should be addressed and corrected. Perhaps a better approach to the more minor things would be to outweigh them with the love you bring to the Mass.

Betsy
 
I agree wholeheartedly with what Betsy said. 👍

Those things that are a matter of personal taste, such as music, may mean attending a different Mass at your parish. My parish has everything from Life Teen, to a traditional choir, and all are reverently done. People simply choose the one that suits their taste.
 
6glargento said:
I’ve grown up in my parish my whole life and never questioned the way that the mass was done, but after comparing it to other church’s masses i noticed a few things.

-our church has no stained glass windows
Not essential, not an abuse.
  • it is shaped like an octagonal pyramid
    Sounds ghastly, but unfortunately, allowable, not an abuse.
-there is no crucifix on the alter, only a cross with jesus standing infront of it.
**Depends. Is there a processional Crucifix placed in the sanctuary near the altar during the Mass? If so, I think the church is allowed to have a risen Christ figure in the sanctuary. A Crucifix is suppose to be present at least for the celebration of the Mass.

** - im pretty shure that they use guitars **Not an abuse…not to my taste, either, but not an abuse. **
  • the songs are very childish and sound very protestant. some songs were written by reformers like john wesley, some songs encourage us to clap our hands and stomp our feet. **Again, maybe. If it promotes outright heresy, then it goes beyond abuse. If it downplays the True Nature of the Holy Eucharist, then I’d say it’s an abuse. John Wesley wrote some beautiful songs and I’d take him over David Haas, or Schute or most anything put out by Oregon Catholic Press. One point: John Wesley wasn’t a reformer. He was born and raised and died an Anglican in good standing, long after the reformation. **
  • at the “lamb of God” the choir says:
    “jesus lamb of God…Jesus bread of life…Jesus saving God”**Abuse. The words of this prayer aren’t supposed to be altered. **
  • the priet sometimes adlibs things such as instead of saying “this is the lamb of God who takes away the sins of the world, happy are we who are called to his supper”** Abuse.**
-tabernacle is off to the side in an enclosed chapel **Not an abuse. This was traditional in European cathedrals and the Church allows the Blessed Sacrament to be place in Its own chapel. **
  • alter servers look sloppy, with casual clothes and tennis shoes under their garments **Bad idea, but not an abuse. **
he said “this is the bread of life who died for us and rose again” or something like that. **I believe that’s an abuse, though there may be a rubric that allows “similar words.” **

looking back, things were much worse, there used to be holding hands at the our father and litergical dancers on occasions
(i think that they still do this at the grade school masses) They also have more “feel good” songs.

Would this be considered litergical abuses?
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I don’t think the hand-holding is an abuse unless it’s being officially required by the celebrant. Liturgical dancing has been
“forbidden” by the USCCB (if you can believe it), but bishops don’t have to obey their own conferences. Cardinal Mahoney allows it, sad to say, in his see. Technically abuse?
 
baltobetsy said:
6glargento, let me give you a piece of advice. Most of the things you have described are fairly minor, and some of them are no more than matters of personal taste. If you let yourself get caught up in looking for liturgical abuses, you will miss the whole point of being at Mass. The greatest thing that ever happened in the history of the world is unfolding before you - don’t ruin it for yourself by becoming the “liturgy police.”

Some abuses are so serious that they jeopardize the validity of the Mass, and of course they should be addressed and corrected. Perhaps a better approach to the more minor things would be to outweigh them with the love you bring to the Mass.

Betsy
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Sometimes, the number of small abuses or non-observances can actually interefere with our reverent attendance on the Mass. I hate it when the liturgy police sit in my head, but there are times when I’m glad I know what I know; otherwise, I’d be lead down a primrose path to a liturgy that passes gradually from questionable to illicit to downright abusive to possibly heretical and invalid.
 
Michael_Welter said:
Those things that are a matter of personal taste, such as music, may mean attending a different Mass at your parish. My parish has everything from Life Teen, to a traditional choir, and all are reverently done. People simply choose the one that suits their taste.
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Well, no, at the risk of starting yet another huge war on this subject, music is NOT simply a matter of taste. There are some things that are objectively inappropriate for Mass, no matter how many people like them. If the Protestant tunes have content that is inconsistent with Catholic teaching, then it is definitely counterindicated.

I don’t understand why we should not care about liturgical abuses. We have a right to the proper celebration of the Mass, and I can’t understand why we discard this so casually. I also want to know what makes people think God doesn’t mind disobedience to the lawful authority of His Church and the norms she has set down for worship.
 
Victorious said:
Well, no, at the risk of starting yet another huge war on this subject, music is NOT simply a matter of taste. There are some things that are objectively inappropriate for Mass, no matter how many people like them. If the Protestant tunes have content that is inconsistent with Catholic teaching, then it is definitely counterindicated.
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Oh, I completely agree. I wasn’t talking about lyrics, I was talking about musical style. Some people like Gregorian Chant, others like traditional choir music, while others like contemporary praise and worship music. The style is not an abuse, it’s a matter of personal preferrence.
 
Michael_Welter said:
Oh, I completely agree. I wasn’t talking about lyrics, I was talking about musical style. Some people like Gregorian Chant, others like traditional choir music, while others like contemporary praise and worship music. The style is not an abuse, it’s a matter of personal preferrence.
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Well, I include style as well as anti-Catholic content. Some kinds of music are objectively irreverent, no matter the intentions of the people who perform it. Kazoos are wholly inappropriate for Mass. Hip hop is right out. Ixnay on grunge metal. None of these things can be rehabilitated for purposes of liturgical use.
 
Pax tecum!
6glargento said:
I’ve grown up in my parish my whole life and never questioned the way that the mass was done, but after comparing it to other church’s masses i noticed a few things.

-our church has no stained glass windows** As JKirk said, not an abuse, though I do prefer images in the church.**
  • it is shaped like an octagonal pyramid Ugly as all get-up, but not an abuse.
-there is no crucifix on the alter, only a cross with jesus standing infront of it.** The crucifix need not be on the altar, or even directly above it (though I think it best for it to be in one of those two places), and like JKirk said, I believe a risen Christ image is technically acceptable, though a better spot for that image would be somewhere outside the sanctuary.**
  • im pretty shure that they use guitars Not an abuse, although electric guitars and drums and such are not appropriate for Mass.
  • the songs are very childish and sound very protestant. some songs were written by reformers like john wesley, some songs encourage us to clap our hands and stomp our feet. As others have said, it depends on the lyrics. Even the St. Michael Hymnal (a very traditional hymnal) has at least one hymn by Martin Luther in it.
  • at the “lamb of God” the choir says:
    “jesus lamb of God…Jesus bread of life…Jesus saving God”** I have heard answers that went both ways on this question. I would say it is an abuse, however, because in the GIRM, the only two places where the priest is allowed to use “similar wording” is the introduction to the Mass at the beginning and the initiation of the Our Father. I know the Agnus Dei is a prayer said by all the congregation, so I don’t know if it technically is covered by the GIRM dictates on the priest not being allowed to change it, but it should fall under the same category.**
  • the priet sometimes adlibs things such as instead of saying “this is the lamb of God who takes away the sins of the world, happy are we who are called to his supper” Abuse. Vatican II said that no one, not even priests, can altar the words of the Mass.
-tabernacle is off to the side in an enclosed chapel As JKirk explained, this is ok, though I like the tabernacle in a central location.
  • alter servers look sloppy, with casual clothes and tennis shoes under their garments Not an abuse, but they should be encouraged to dress nicer.
he said “this is the bread of life who died for us and rose again” or something like that. Abuse–same answer as I gave by citing Vatican II.

looking back, things were much worse, there used to be holding hands at the our father and litergical dancers on occasions
(i think that they still do this at the grade school masses) They also have more “feel good” songs. Holding hands during the Our Father is not techincally an abuse because the GIRM does not speak on it and the Congregation for Divine Worship has not yet spoken definitively on it, but Cardinal Arinze has, if not in specifics, discouraged it. Liturgical dance, however, is definitely an abuse.
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In Christ,
Rand
 
Michael_Welter said:
I agree wholeheartedly with what Betsy said. 👍

Those things that are a matter of personal taste, such as music, may mean attending a different Mass at your parish. My parish has everything from Life Teen, to a traditional choir, and all are reverently done. People simply choose the one that suits their taste.
Click to expand...
I third what Betsy said. You gain nothing by playing “liturgical police.”

The OPs description sounds like the typical contemporary Catholic church. Thank God for my 50+ year old parish and pastor (60+).
 
LeahInancsi said:
I third what Betsy said. You gain nothing by playing “liturgical police.”
The OPs description sounds like the typical contemporary Catholic church. Thank God for my 50+ year old parish and pastor (60+).
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Except abiding by what the Church intends—and within this- help a parish align itself to the norms of the Church.
 
The organ is the prefered instrument for Mass (from the Second Vatican Council document). Style does matter because some styles make one focus on oneself ond ones emotions and thus hinder the union with God that we have at Holy Mass.
Rock and the kitsch stuff like Glory and Praise and the Marty Haugen ilk belong in the hindrance category.

Abuses do matter and irreverence has a way of rubbing off on those who attend such Masses on a regular basis.

I notice it in myself and I find it very frustrating to be so weak and to slip off into forgetfulness of what is really going on at Mass and to be unable to concentrate on our Lord and His presence due to the silly songs and the antics of the priest or his banter and his trying to engage us as if we were an audience or a class. And the priest is a young and very orthodox one as far as a Novo Ordo priest knows how to be.

These folks who can concentrate and not lose their reverence for God by going to these sloppy or worse Masses must be the new saints of our age. I think they must be right up there with the Blessed Mother.
I just beg their prayers for us weak ones who run to the nearest traditional Mass to shore up our faith and that of our children who are much more susceptible than we adults to the bad witness of an abusive Mass.
 
Personally, I don’t particularly care is the priest does something that seems odd or even if it is only a minor infraction of liturgical law. However, I don’t like it if the priest involves me, by, for example, ordering everyone to stand during the eucharistic prayer or by ordering everyone to hold hands during the Our Father, some of the things I have experienced. Moreover, such things can cause division in the parish, as well as turmoil or confusion in those present during the mass, which can distract the people there during worship, which, after all, is the leading reason why the people are there.

QUOTE=LeahInancsi;1555742]I third what Betsy said. You gain nothing by playing “liturgical police.”
 
6glargento said:
I’ve grown up in my parish my whole life and never questioned the way that the mass was done, but after comparing it to other church’s masses i noticed a few things.

-our church has no stained glass windows
  • it is shaped like an octagonal pyramid
-there is no crucifix on the alter, only a cross with jesus standing infront of it.
  • im pretty shure that they use guitars
  • the songs are very childish and sound very protestant. some songs were written by reformers like john wesley, some songs encourage us to clap our hands and stomp our feet.
  • at the “lamb of God” the choir says:
    “jesus lamb of God…Jesus bread of life…Jesus saving God”
  • the priet sometimes adlibs things such as instead of saying “this is the lamb of God who takes away the sins of the world, happy are we who are called to his supper”
-tabernacle is off to the side in an enclosed chapel
  • alter servers look sloppy, with casual clothes and tennis shoes under their garments
he said “this is the bread of life who died for us and rose again” or something like that.

looking back, things were much worse, there used to be holding hands at the our father and litergical dancers on occasions
(i think that they still do this at the grade school masses) They also have more “feel good” songs.

Would this be considered litergical abuses?
Click to expand...
These things don’t seem too bad in themselves, but are often a reflection of an underlying problem that is very serious- political correctness, sappiness, weakness, saccharine-- whatever you want to call it.
 
Rand_Al_Thor said:
Not an abuse, although electric guitars and drums and such are not appropriate for Mass.
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This is, of course, your opinion, and not the position of the Church. The Church has not stated such officially.
 
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