Is this a liturgical abuse?

[ziapueblo]

Greetings,

I was out of town and visiting a parish (Roman rite) and the priest invited the children to come up to the alter during the Eucharist Prayer. Now, the priest alone recited the prayer but the children were surrounding the alter. Is that okay?

Second, during the sign of peace, the priest left the alter and went up and down the aisle shaking hands. I thought that the priest could only give the sign of peace to those in and around the alter. Is that true?

Thanks for you time.

God bless,
ZP

 

[NPC]

I was out of town and visiting a parish (Roman rite) and the priest invited the children to come up to the alter during the Eucharist Prayer. Now, the priest alone recited the prayer but the children were surrounding the alter. Is that okay?

No - it’s not ok. There’s a good article HERE from EWTN explaining why it’s not an acceptable practice. A reply given by Fr John Hardon to the same question is given HERE - a more succinct version of the EWTN response. I suppose the bottom line is that there is a real danger that such arrangements, well intended though they may be, can cause confusion as to what exact role the laity and the priest should have in the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass. Similar abuses occur, for example, where the priest would invite the congregation to raise their hands during the Consecration - as if they’re concelebrating the Holy Mass or as if they have power to confect the sacrament…it’s all down to blurred boundaries or blatantly overstepping boundaries.

Second, during the sign of peace, the priest left the alter and went up and down the aisle shaking hands. I thought that the priest could only give the sign of peace to those in and around the alter. Is that true?

You are correct. Redemptionis Sacramentum says this regarding the sign of peace:

[72.] It is appropriate “that each one give the sign of peace only to those who are nearest and in a sober manner”. “The Priest may give the sign of peace to the ministers but always remains within the sanctuary, so as not to disturb the celebration. He does likewise if for a just reason he wishes to extend the sign of peace to some few of the faithful”.

There is no confusion there - he ALWAYS remains within the sanctuary.

 

[curlycool89]

You are correct. Redemptionis Sacramentum says this regarding the sign of peace:

There is no confusion there - he ALWAYS remains within the sanctuary.

Although, because of the recent H1N1 outbreak I’ve seen a lot of priests have to leave the sanctuary to use the hand sanitizer.

 

[FrCorey]

Greetings,

I was out of town and visiting a parish (Roman rite) and the priest invited the children to come up to the alter during the Eucharist Prayer. Now, the priest alone recited the prayer but the children were surrounding the alter. Is that okay?

Second, during the sign of peace, the priest left the alter and went up and down the aisle shaking hands. I thought that the priest could only give the sign of peace to those in and around the alter. Is that true?

Thanks for you time.

God bless,
ZP

not good, sounds a little charismatic to me.

 

[NPC]

Although, because of the recent H1N1 outbreak I’ve seen a lot of priests have to leave the sanctuary to use the hand sanitizer.

The myth of the H1N1 epidemic… had us all in such a tizzy.

Perhaps someone else would know what the regulations are for this. At very least, I would imagine that it’s undesirable for the priest to leave the sanctuary - even for hand sanitiser. Anyway, surely it wouldn’t be too difficult for there to be a bit of sanitiser nearby in the sanctuary area, or for an EMHC to bring some to the celebrant?

 

[NewEnglandPriest]

I was out of town and visiting a parish (Roman rite) and the priest invited the children to come up to the alter during the Eucharist Prayer. Now, the priest alone recited the prayer but the children were surrounding the alter. Is that okay?

Its not allowed. Its a practice that used to be fairly popular but has by and large gone by the wayside.

Second, during the sign of peace, the priest left the alter and went up and down the aisle shaking hands. I thought that the priest could only give the sign of peace to those in and around the alter. Is that true?

Its not only not allowed but at a Sunday Mass there’s no conceivable reason why the priest would need to do this. Funeral Masses on the other hand are a horse of a different color.

 

[Angel_Bradford]

The myth of the H1N1 epidemic… had us all in such a tizzy.

Perhaps someone else would know what the regulations are for this. At very least, I would imagine that it’s undesirable for the priest to leave the sanctuary - even for hand sanitiser. Anyway, surely it wouldn’t be too difficult for there to be a bit of sanitiser nearby in the sanctuary area, or for an EMHC to bring some to the celebrant?

We put one bottle on the creedance table and another on the opposite side with the altar servers.

 

[foundmyfaith]

As an ICU nurse who has taken care of many young people on ventilators with H1N1, I contest the use of the word ‘myth’. However, I am sure they can just keep the hand sanitizer close by.

 

[NPC]

As an ICU nurse who has taken care of many young people on ventilators with H1N1, I contest the use of the word ‘myth’. However, I am sure they can just keep the hand sanitizer close by.

I used the word “myth” to refer to the pandemic (I called it an epidemic by mistake) not to the reality of the H1N1 virus. The hype that was generated about the inevitable devastating effects of it simply did not materialise. I don’t wish to trivialise the matter as I know people have indeed died from the virus, but when one considers the hundreds of thousands of people who die from “standard” 'flu each year, the number who have had serious complications from H1N1 is very small.

 

[ziapueblo]

Everyone,

Thanks so much for your replies! We were visiting my brother when we attended this parish. He wants to do something about this because it’s been going on for some time now, so I guess the question is, how is this to be done? I’m sure it’s not polite to “break rank” so an email or letter to the priest? If that does not work then contact the bishop?

Thanks,
ZP

 

[buffalo]

No!

 

[puzzleannie]

not good, sounds a little charismatic to me.

this is not about charismatic spirituality and what OP describes is not normal practice at Masses in the Charistmatic renewal. stick to the topic

as far as what do we do about it, we don’t do anything, not our parish, not our diocese. there is a well establsihed procedure linked here, lay witness protocol. First the parishioner addresses the priest directly, civilly non-confrontationally and simply asks the reasons for the practices. If that results in no change the parishioners document the abuses, report them to the bishop in a succinct terse, signed letter and leave it to him. If it continues to the extent that it disturbs your ability to fully participate at Mass, find another parish. Be very sure of your ground before lodging a complaint. “I am not used to it and it looks charistmatic” is not a valid complaint. “the GIRM says X and the priest violates that” is a valid complaint.

 

[NewEnglandPriest]

Everyone,

Thanks so much for your replies! We were visiting my brother when we attended this parish. He wants to do something about this because it’s been going on for some time now, so I guess the question is, how is this to be done? I’m sure it’s not polite to “break rank” so an email or letter to the priest? If that does not work then contact the bishop?

First step is to write a very polite letter to the pastor explaining that you and others find such deviations distracting. If there’s no change you can then write a similarly gentle letter to the bishop’s office.
Things may change, they may not.

 

[benedictgal]

This is what Redemptionis Sacramentum notes concerning liturgical abuse:

[10.] The Church herself has no power over those things which were established by Christ Himself and which constitute an unchangeable part of the Liturgy.23 Indeed, if the bond were to be broken which the Sacraments have with Christ Himself who instituted them, and with the events of the Church’s founding,24 it would not be beneficial to the faithful but rather would do them grave harm. For the Sacred Liturgy is quite intimately connected with principles of doctrine,25 so that the use of unapproved texts and rites necessarily leads either to the attenuation or to the disappearance of that necessary link between the lex orandi and the lex credendi.26

[11.] The Mystery of the Eucharist “is too great for anyone to permit himself to treat it according to his own whim, so that its sacredness and its universal ordering would be obscured”.27 **On the contrary, anyone who acts thus by giving free rein to his own inclinations, even if he is a Priest, injures the substantial unity of the Roman Rite, which ought to be vigorously preserved,28 and becomes responsible for actions that are in no way consistent with the hunger and thirst for the living God that is experienced by the people today. Nor do such actions serve authentic pastoral care or proper liturgical renewal; instead, they deprive Christ’s faithful of their patrimony and their heritage. For arbitrary actions are not conducive to true renewal,29 but are detrimental to the right of Christ’s faithful to a liturgical celebration that is an expression of the Church’s life in accordance with her tradition and discipline. In the end, they introduce elements of distortion and disharmony into the very celebration of the Eucharist, which is oriented in its own lofty way and by its very nature to signifying and wondrously bringing about the communion of divine life and the unity of the People of God.**30 The result is uncertainty in matters of doctrine, perplexity and scandal on the part of the People of God, and, almost as a necessary consequence, vigorous opposition, all of which greatly confuse and sadden many of Christ’s faithful in this age of ours when Christian life is often particularly difficult on account of the inroads of “secularization” as well.31

[12.] On the contrary, it is the right of all of Christ’s faithful that the Liturgy, and in particular the celebration of Holy Mass, should truly be as the Church wishes, according to her stipulations as prescribed in the liturgical books and in the other laws and norms. Likewise, the Catholic people have the right that the Sacrifice of the Holy Mass should be celebrated for them in an integral manner, according to the entire doctrine of the Church’s Magisterium. Finally, it is the Catholic community’s right that the celebration of the Most Holy Eucharist should be carried out for it in such a manner that it truly stands out as a sacrament of unity, to the exclusion of all blemishes and actions that might engender divisions and factions in the Church.32

What the OP reported concerning the kids gathering around the altar is a serious abuse. In fact, LifeTeen had been practicing this kind of activity until the Congregation for Divine Worship and the Discipline of the Sacraments told them to cease and desist back in 2004.

During the sign of peace, the priest needs to stay in the sanctuary. The only time he can impart the sign of peace outside of the sanctuary is during the Funeral Mass.

 

[John_Lilburne]

From the 2002 General Instruction of the Roman Missal (GIRM) approved for the USA, which can be accessed from romanrite.com/girm.html :
“154. … The priest may give the sign of peace to the ministers but always remains within the sanctuary, so as not to disturb the celebration. In the dioceses of the United States of America, for a good reason, on special occasions (for example, in the case of a funeral, a wedding, or when civic leaders are present) the priest may offer the sign of peace to a few of the faithful near the sanctuary. …”.

Regarding people going into the sanctuary:
“294. The People of God, gathered for Mass, has a coherent and hierarchical structure, which finds its expression in the variety of ministries and the variety of actions according to the different parts of the celebration. The general ordering of the sacred building must be such that in some way it conveys the image of the gathered assembly and allows the appropriate ordering of all the participants, as well as facilitating each in the proper carrying out of his function.
The faithful and the choir should have a place that facilitates their active participation.[footnote 114. Cf. Sacred Congregation of Rites, Instruction Inter Oecumenici, on the orderly carrying out of the Constitution on the Sacred Liturgy, 26 September 1964, nos. 97-98: AAS 56 (1964), p. 899.]
The priest celebrant, the deacon, and the other ministers have places in the sanctuary. Seats for concelebrants should also be prepared there. If, however, their number is great, seats should be arranged in another part of the church, but near the altar.
II. ARRANGEMENT OF THE SANCTUARY FOR THE SACRED SYNAXIS (EUCHARISTIC ASSEMBLY)
295. The sanctuary is the place where the altar stands, where the word of God is proclaimed, and where the priest, the deacon, and the other ministers exercise their offices. …”

From the footnote 114:
“98. Special care should be taken that the places for the faithful will assure their proper participation in the sacred rites with both eyes and mind. Normally there should be benches or chairs for their use but, in keeping with the Constitution art. 32, the custom of reserving places for special persons is to be suppressed.
Care is also to be taken to enable the faithful not only to see the celebrant and other ministers but also to hear them easily, even by use of modern sound equipment.”

 

[roadsend]

The myth of the H1N1 epidemic… had us all in such a tizzy.

Perhaps someone else would know what the regulations are for this. At very least, I would imagine that it’s undesirable for the priest to leave the sanctuary - even for hand sanitiser. Anyway, surely it wouldn’t be too difficult for there to be a bit of sanitiser nearby in the sanctuary area, or for an EMHC to bring some to the celebrant?

It would make more sense to simply omit the Sign of Peace under threat of a pandemic. It is an optional, not mandatory gesture.
Fiddling with hand sanitizers is an unnecessary distraction, if contact is avoided.

 

[NPC]

It would make more sense to simply omit the Sign of Peace under threat of a pandemic. It is an optional, not mandatory gesture.
Fiddling with hand sanitizers is an unnecessary distraction, if contact is avoided.

Assuming that no one has sneezed before that point and infected everyone in the church

Of course omitting the sign of peace is an option - and one step I think most priests have taken in recent months. However, the fact is that, hand sanitiser or no hand sanitiser, if one is particularly succeptible to the virus, they will catch it - chances are they’ve probably caught it before even approaching the altar rails. For those who aren’t immuno-compromised, they have nothing to worry about - no more than if they were to catch a more common influenza virus…Anyway, sorry for dragging this thread off topic - there are plenty of earlier threads about H1N1 in church…

 

[foundmyfaith]

I used the word “myth” to refer to the pandemic (I called it an epidemic by mistake) not to the reality of the H1N1 virus. The hype that was generated about the inevitable devastating effects of it simply did not materialise. I don’t wish to trivialise the matter as I know people have indeed died from the virus, but when one considers the hundreds of thousands of people who die from “standard” 'flu each year, the number who have had serious complications from H1N1 is very small.

I am sorry about that reply. I think I was slightly snarky.

H1N1 has just been tough on the entire medical community this year. So many young people have been so ill. Normally, we see people who have long-standing medical conditions and the frail elderly develop complications with the regular flu. It’s extremely difficult to watch the parents of young adults stand around the bed of a deathly ill 21 year old.

As a side note, my husband and both of my kids got H1N1. I never even sniffled. It appears I posess a heck of an immune system. All turned out well for the kids, but hubby had to be admitted to the hospital. He is fine now. Thanks, Lord!

 

[NPC]

I am sorry about that reply. I think I was slightly snarky.

H1N1 has just been tough on the entire medical community this year. So many young people have been so ill. Normally, we see people who have long-standing medical conditions and the frail elderly develop complications with the regular flu. It’s extremely difficult to watch the parents of young adults stand around the bed of a deathly ill 21 year old.

As a side note, my husband and both of my kids got H1N1. I never even sniffled. It appears I posess a heck of an immune system. All turned out well for the kids, but hubby had to be admitted to the hospital. He is fine now. Thanks, Lord!

No need whatsoever to apologise…I certainly didn’t think of your comment as “snarky”! I know it has been tough for many - especially those, like yourself, who are in the medical profession. Glad to hear your family got through H1N1, and for your escaping it!

 

[Pawel_J]

Greetings,

I was out of town and visiting a parish (Roman rite) and the priest invited the children to come up to the alter during the Eucharist Prayer. Now, the priest alone recited the prayer but the children were surrounding the alter. Is that okay?

Second, during the sign of peace, the priest left the alter and went up and down the aisle shaking hands. I thought that the priest could only give the sign of peace to those in and around the alter. Is that true?

Thanks for you time.

God bless,
ZP

I find it quite OK. I have experienced many similar examples in the parish in Germany, where I currently belong. It has been always a special Sunday mass for children and their parents. I don’t see anything wrong in it. The same refers to the priest shaking hands with people.