Is this a liturgical abuse?

[NorthTexan88]

This seems to happen at Mass every Sunday, but are the following liturgical abuses:

1. Everyone in the sanctuary forming a giant interlocking chain
2. everyone raising their hands when the priest does
3. Priest joking with the choir ( er guitar and drum player)
4. Music being played at a pretty loud volume while the host is being consecrated ( it’s impossible to concentrate for me)

*Will the new Mass translation be a little more strict?

*Do you think too much modernism has crept into the church? I can’t help but feel whenever I go to Mass I’m at a semi- penticostal liturgical Protestant/Catholic hybrid church? I try to remember why I’m there but I always leave feeling discouraged. Our only “reverent” Mass is at 8:30 but even that one is stretching it. What should I do?

One reason why I am trying to start a Latin Mass community in our area

 

[Corki]

1. Definately an abuse. There is to be no musical accompaniment to the Consecration.

I’ll let others take the rest.

 

[promethius]

1. Everyone in the sanctuary forming a giant interlocking chain

When? Outside the mass? Not an issue as long as it’s not for profane reasons. In the mass? Well, what part of the mass are you talking about?

1. everyone raising their hands when the priest does

Again, you’re not very specific. If the priest asks for a show of hands during a homily, and puts his own hand up, I’d fully expect people to raise their hands. If we’re talking about mimicking the handmotions of the consecration, I’d say that this should not be done.

1. Priest joking with the choir ( er guitar and drum player)

Before the mass? During or as part of the homily? Allowable. In the middle of the consecration, not so allowable.

1. Music being played at a pretty loud volume while the host is being consecrated ( it’s impossible to concentrate for me)

Again, you don’t specify if this is part of the sanctus, the great amen, etc… or if it’s played while the priest is speaking the Eucharistic prayers. So without knowing more, we can’t begin to say. If the consecration is being set to background music, this is not allowed.

*Will the new Mass translation be a little more strict?

Assuming the above occure at the most restrictive portions of the mass, as listed in my responses, then it doesn’t really matter if the new translation is more strict, because this priest would already be violating EXISTING restrictions in the GIRM.

*Do you think too much modernism has crept into the church?

No. If I thought that the church itself could be conquered by the world, then I wouldn’t be catholic. I think, however, too many conservative catholics have abandoned the liturgy of the OF to liberal priests while attending exclusively the EF form of the mass… more or less removing the anchor of the community which would have prevented most of these abuses.

I can’t help but feel whenever I go to Mass I’m at a semi- penticostal liturgical Protestant/Catholic hybrid church? I try to remember why I’m there but I always leave feeling discouraged. Our only “reverent” Mass is at 8:30 but even that one is stretching it. What should I do?

I would suggest you read “The Lamb’s Supper: Mass as Heaven on Earth” by Scott Hahn. If your understanding of the mass is that it’s sacred character depends on the actions of people, then you need to increase you theological perspective of the liturgy. Regardless of taste in music, etc, there is ALWAYS a sacred character to the worship of the Mass that distinguishes it completely from anything you describe.

One reason why I am trying to start a Latin Mass community in our area

Depending on implementation and the spiritual maturity of your community, this is either a very good, or a very bad idea.

 

[I_Thirst]

What should I do?

Go to 8:30am Mass, or offer it up when you go to other Masses (and pray to Mary that you may imitate her humility), or find another parish.

 

[Samuel63]

I have a better idea. Start reading up on what is proper in a mass. Document abuse one at a time with first a kind letter to the pastor (e-mail will do) that cites the abuse, the church document that is governing, and ask for change. Be as kind and professional as you can.

Nothing will happen, in terms of real change. Write the bishop next. Again, nothing will happen. Write the Congregation of The Doctrine of The Faith next. They have an e-mail address - cdf@cfaith.va.

The goal here is to remain steadfast agains abuse. Load the vatican files with who is participating in abuse, and which bishops are allowing it. We finally have a vatican administration that is taking notice.

For reference use the General Instruction of The Roman Missal, Redemptionis Sacramentum, Mass Confusion (by Jimmy Akin), and Mass Revision (by Jimmy Akin).

Google this string - +catholic +liturgical +abuse.
You will see the common points of abuse.

Fight the good fight to the finish!

 

[Pfaffenhoffen]

This seems to happen at Mass every Sunday, but are the following liturgical abuses:

1. Everyone in the sanctuary forming a giant interlocking chain
2. everyone raising their hands when the priest does
3. Priest joking with the choir ( er guitar and drum player)
4. Music being played at a pretty loud volume while the host is being consecrated ( it’s impossible to concentrate for me)

*Will the new Mass translation be a little more strict?

*Do you think too much modernism has crept into the church? I can’t help but feel whenever I go to Mass I’m at a semi- penticostal liturgical Protestant/Catholic hybrid church? I try to remember why I’m there but I always leave feeling discouraged. Our only “reverent” Mass is at 8:30 but even that one is stretching it. What should I do?

One reason why I am trying to start a Latin Mass community in our area

After Vatican II. ther have been experiments. when there are experiments, there comes good and bad things.
This mass seemed intended for Punks !!!

 

[puzzleannie]

)

1. Music being played at a pretty loud volume while the host is being consecrated ( it’s impossible to concentrate for me)

*Will the new Mass translation be a little more strict?

this is an abuse there is supposed to be no music whatever at the consecration

the new Mass translation has to do with the words of the prayers, and nothing to do with music and rubrics (except of course the new musical settings for prayers that have changed)

you don’t need a Latin Mass you merely need a priest who is willing to say Mass according to the norms.

 

[TheMc]

you don’t need a Latin Mass you merely need a priest who is willing to say Mass according to the norms.

On paper, you are totally right. But sometimes it’s easier just to take the path of least resistance, and know that it will be done right.

 

[TheMc]

When? Outside the mass? Not an issue as long as it’s not for profane reasons. In the mass? Well, what part of the mass are you talking about?

?!?!

The sanctuary is sacred! This should never be done, during Mass or outside of Mass!!

 

[Mrs_Sally]

I have a better idea. Start reading up on what is proper in a mass. Document abuse one at a time with first a kind letter to the pastor (e-mail will do) that cites the abuse, the church document that is governing, and ask for change. Be as kind and professional as you can.

Nothing will happen, in terms of real change. Write the bishop next. Again, nothing will happen. Write the Congregation of The Doctrine of The Faith next. They have an e-mail address - cdf@cfaith.va.

The goal here is to remain steadfast agains abuse. Load the vatican files with who is participating in abuse, and which bishops are allowing it. We finally have a vatican administration that is taking notice.

For reference use the General Instruction of The Roman Missal, Redemptionis Sacramentum, Mass Confusion (by Jimmy Akin), and Mass Revision (by Jimmy Akin).

Google this string - +catholic +liturgical +abuse.
You will see the common points of abuse.

Fight the good fight to the finish!

I agree that we should do all in our power to help foster a reverant orthodox Mass. However, most of what the OP describes is not an “abuse”.

A better approach may be to talk to the pastor directly about the one real abuse - the music during the consecration. That may be dramatic and the priests/choir’s way of highlighting the consecration, but it is not allowed.

Only after a conversation with the pastor would I begin sending emails or any kind of letter.

As for the other practices - holding hands, raising hands - those are actions of the congregation and not completely under the priest’s control. Yes, he can speak about it in the homily, insert notes in the bulletin etc. But it doesn’t sound as if change will come instantly at the OPs parish.

Pray for your priest, and your fellow parishioners. Be an example of reverance. Work for change, but charitably.

 

[TheMc]

Posted by Mrs Sally:
*I agree that we should do all in our power to help foster a reverant orthodox Mass. However, most of what the OP describes is not an “abuse”. [How do you define abuse? It seems to me that if it shouldn’t be done, it’s an abuse. It may be a small abuse (such as the candle bearers going behind the crossbearer instead of next to him) or a large abuse (such as breaking the host at the time of consecration). But they are still both abuses.]

A better approach may be to talk to the pastor directly about the one real abuse - the music during the consecration. That may be dramatic and the priests/choir’s way of highlighting the consecration, but it is not allowed.

Only after a conversation with the pastor would I begin sending emails or any kind of letter.

As for the other practices - holding hands, raising hands - those are actions of the congregation and not completely under the priest’s control. [But I think it’s a reasonable assumption that they are doing it under his support, after reading the other points.] Yes, he can speak about it in the homily, insert notes in the bulletin etc. But it doesn’t sound as if change will come instantly at the OPs parish.[Especially if the pastor himself is against the change.]

Pray for your priest, and your fellow parishioners.[Yes. Most definitively. It’s clearly needed.] Be an example of reverance. Work for change, but charitably. [Always.]*

 

[zab]

On paper, you are totally right. But sometimes it’s easier just to take the path of least resistance, and know that it will be done right.

I can attend Mass at my parish in the OF and know that it will be done right, too. My pastor happens to celebrate the EF in our parish a few times a month, and I can trust that he is doing things right there also. But if I attend an EF Mass at a parish where I do not know the priest, how can I tell if he is doing anything wrong or not? You are pitting one form against another by implying that you will always find the Latin Mass being said the correct way but you can’t be sure about the Mass in the OF.

 

[Mrs_Sally]

Actions of the congregation cannot be considered liturgical abuses since they are not celebrating the Mass.

Just as we distinguish between mortal and venial sin, I think it is prudent to distinguish between abuse and a sloppy liturgy. When true abuse has been identified and corrected, then we can worry about poor liturgical practice (for example, your candle bearers) that doesn’t rise to the level of true abuse (ie, pouring the wine (Blood of Christ) after the consecration).

Usually the behavior of the congregation will follow the lead of the priest and become more reverent.

Certainly abuses need to be corrected, but it is generally more successful to make changes in increments, with a goal in mind, than wholesale. First, wholesale changes can sweep in other abuses, but most often they merely serve to confuse people and cause dissension, confusion, and pain where none was intended.

 

[roadsend]

Actions of the congregation cannot be considered liturgical abuses since they are not celebrating the Mass.

…

So actions such as illicit music, rowdy behavior, platoons of “Eucharistic Ministers” and self-intinction even when condoned and/or encouraged by the celebrant are not liturgical abuses?
I have trouble buying that.

 

[Mrs_Sally]

So actions such as illicit music, rowdy behavior, platoons of “Eucharistic Ministers” and self-intinction even when condoned and/or encouraged by the celebrant are not liturgical abuses?
I have trouble buying that.

No, those things are under the control of the priest, so they are liturgical abuse. The music at Mass, number and training of EMHCs, and availability of the Blood of Christ for self-intiction are all at the discretion of the priest and so can be abused.

The OP mentioned hand holding and the ‘orans’ position done in the congregation. The actions of the congregation are not liturgical abuse. If the congregation is saying the rosary during the consecration, standing and swaying while singing hymns, holding hands all through Mass, none of that is liturgical abuse.

 

[roadsend]

No, those things are under the control of the priest, so they are liturgical abuse. The music at Mass, number and training of EMHCs, and availability of the Blood of Christ for self-intiction are all at the discretion of the priest and so can be abused.

The OP mentioned hand holding and the ‘orans’ position done in the congregation. The actions of the congregation are not liturgical abuse. If the congregation is saying the rosary during the consecration, standing and swaying while singing hymns, holding hands all through Mass, none of that is liturgical abuse.

I believe I see your point.
If, however, the priest condones or promotes such behaviors do you see these things rising to the level of liturgical abuse?

 

[Mrs_Sally]

I believe I see your point.
If, however, the priest condones or promotes such behaviors do you see these things rising to the level of liturgical abuse?

I believe that the congregation will takes it’s cues from the priest. If he is reverant and orthodox, they will be also. If he allows or promotes litugical ‘inventions’ or abuse, the people will tend toward actions like high fives during the sign of peace.

However, I do not believe that the actions of the congregation in the pews can be considered liturgical abuse. Disrespectful, inappropriate, obnoxious, yes. But abusive? I don’t see that.

 

[TheMc]

I can attend Mass at my parish in the OF and know that it will be done right, too. My pastor happens to celebrate the EF in our parish a few times a month, and I can trust that he is doing things right there also.

I am also blessed with a pastor who is reverent and obidient to the church, but unfortunately, that blessing is not present in most parishes (I say this from personal experience. I’ve traveled a lot, and I often just go to the nearest church, quite randomly selected, you might say).

But if I attend an EF Mass at a parish where I do not know the priest, how can I tell if he is doing anything wrong or not?

Of course, it is possible to disobey the rubrics while celebrating the EF, but the point is that any priest who is willing to take the time to learn the EF is probably going to celebrate it reverently and according to the rubrics. I might also note that this priest will probably celebrate the OF with reverence as well.

You are pitting one form against another by implying that you will always find the Latin Mass being said the correct way but you can’t be sure about the Mass in the OF.

It’s unfortunate, but that is essentially the situation today. However, I am not pitting one form against another.

I am not speaking with “book knowledge,” because in theory, both forms would be celebrated with reverence and devotion, according to the rubrics. But in real life, that is often not true. That is the issue I am speaking of here.

 

[NorthTexan88]

Thanks for all the tips everyone. One of the persons who goes to the church as well is actually planning on talking to the priest about playing music during the consecration, they have been there a lot longer than I have and we both agreed that would probably be best.

One thing I have noticed about meeting and talking to people who are my age that go to my parish (I am still in RCIA so I’m still meeting people) is that it seems to be our generation (30 and under), who are tired of all the “irreverence” during Mass, they all wish incense would be brought back. If you go to our parish’s LifeTeen Mass, you definently see young people, however, there seems to be far more older people (over 30+). I have even talked to 2 seminarians to agree that our generation is more conservative. This by no means is uniform, but it seems to be very common. I am hoping that if these are “liturgical abuses” then ours will be the generation to correct them.

One last thing I promise! And this is what I am afraid for. Our priest is fairly liberal, nice but liberal, and he even went so far as to say to our RCIA class that tradition does not really matter. I was thinking if 50 people who dont know about the Catholic Church are hearing this, then they are going to belive that it doesnt matter when it actually does. Good thing the RCIA instructor stepped in

Off my rant lol

 

[I_Thirst]

One last thing I promise! And this is what I am afraid for. Our priest is fairly liberal, nice but liberal, and he even went so far as to say to our RCIA class that tradition does not really matter. I was thinking if 50 people who dont know about the Catholic Church are hearing this, then they are going to belive that it doesnt matter when it actually does. Good thing the RCIA instructor stepped in

Off my rant lol

I recall in RCIA in my parish, they said that there was small-t tradition and big-T Tradition.
Small-t tradition were things that a local parish or culture does – holding hands at the OF, tacky hymns, etc. Big-T Tradition is Sacred Tradition, which gives us the Bible, etc.

I wonder if your priest was referring to small-t traditions?

(btw, I thought it was just another way of justifying weird liturgical practices or attitudes. YMMV.)