Is this a marriage or a same sex fraud?

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The husband was born female. He went through psych eval and counseling, was given hormone therapy, and had the sex change surgery. He is a physical male complete with constructed penis and testicle implants. He, presumably, can have sex in the normal male-female way although he cannot naturally procreate as a male. And he is legally a male, now, complete with birth certificate, SS card, and ID saying his gender is male. With that documentation he could legally marry a female, which he did.

On the one hand, physically they are an opposite sex couple legally married. On the other hand, one was born a different sex. So, is this marriage a fraud or a marriage?
Abraham Lincoln was fond of asking, “If you call a dog’s tail a leg, how many legs does a dog have?” “Five,” his audience would invariably answer. “No,” he would politely respond, “the correct answer is four. Calling a tail a leg does not make it a leg.”

Many of our fellow citizens, like Lincoln’s audience, appear to fall for the notion that a change of name causes a change in essence.
 
…it does not bother me that they call themselves married, vow themselves to each other, or commit to the caretaking of each other. It only bothers me that they do spiritual harm to themselves by having sex with each other. Isn’t that what we should actually be focusing on, instead of semantics over a word God didn’t use? 🤷
What I find odd is that the State should deem “man+woman” and (say) “man+man” as just the same thing, attracting the same level of State acclaim, endorsement and support, despite their fundamental differences. In this regard, I think we understand “marriage” to be a sexual union, and that fact is what makes “man+woman” a rather unique class of union.
 
What I find odd is that the State should deem “man+woman” and (say) “man+man” as just the same thing, attracting the same level of State acclaim, endorsement and support, despite their fundamental differences. In this regard, I think we understand “marriage” to be a sexual union, and that fact is what makes “man+woman” a rather unique class of union.
Only a few states tie sex into marriage. The majority of states have no sexual requirement to marriage; civilly, it is only meant as an actuarial institution to improve the health of society by encouraging commitment between partners. This is not a capability exclusive to heterosexuals.
 
Only a few states tie sex into marriage. The majority of states have no sexual requirement to marriage; civilly, it is only meant as an actuarial institution to improve the health of society by encouraging commitment between partners. This is not a capability exclusive to heterosexuals.
I don’t doubt that the statutes don’t mention the couple might be having sex. But it would require one to step outside reality to suggest that marriage is not understood by essentially all people to be a sexual union.

Can you point to the pre-amble of any State’s marriage act (not one re-drafted in recent times!) that declares the nature or purpose of marriage to be for actuarial purposes? This is not an idea I’ve heard before, but I can see merit in it. It just sounds like an idea that came along “later”…

The “idea” that the State’s interests might be served by facilitating relationships of mutual care may well have merit. That the State chooses to declare these to be “just the same thing” (even when limited to the State’s perspective on the matter) as Marriage continues to irk me. I readily admit that that may simply be a consequence of an entrenched understanding of the word marriage and of history.
 
Only a few states tie sex into marriage. The majority of states have no sexual requirement to marriage; civilly, it is only meant as an actuarial institution to improve the health of society by encouraging commitment between partners.
When you refer to intent (“it is only meant as”), are you talking about the intent of people who made changes to legislation, or made court rulings that overturned previous common law and created new precedents? Such changes take time, so we are reaching back into history, and I have to admit complete ignorance of the history of the kind of civil marriage that you are talking about.

Could you please identify some sources of information on that history? I am interested in particular in the history of the social and political movements that influenced legislators, judges, and the general public.
This is not a capability exclusive to heterosexuals.
A gay man and a lesbian woman can have a partnership. If there is not necessarily any sexual aspect to their commitment to each other, then they can have a different-sex civil marriage.

Similarly, if there is not necessarily any sexual aspect to marriage, then we could imagine a heterosexual Wilbur Wright and a heterosexual Orville Wright having a marriage. They certainly pursued their hobby of trying to achieve heavier-than-air flight together. Both members of the partnership happened to be men. Therefore, if their partnership had been a civil marriage, then it would have been a same-sex civil marriage.

If there were a history of same-sex civil marriages between heterosexual partners, then why would there be any connection between same-sex marriage and a movement advertising itself as seeking equality in civil rights, including in particular LGBT civil rights?
 
When you refer to intent (“it is only meant as”), are you talking about the intent of people who made changes to legislation, or made court rulings that overturned previous common law and created new precedents? Such changes take time, so we are reaching back into history, and I have to admit complete ignorance of the history of the kind of civil marriage that you are talking about.

Could you please identify some sources of information on that history? I am interested in particular in the history of the social and political movements that influenced legislators, judges, and the general public.
I meant legislatively. I was referring specifically to United States law, where child support, tax benefits, and post-separation visitation of children are all rights/privileges extended to parents regardless of current or former marital status. In fact, the only distinctions that marriage provides are:

a) financial benefits in the case of a partner who holds down a home while the other has a much larger salary, in order to provide for a family regardless of children or, if they do have children, regardless of whether they procreate or adopt. This includes inheritance rights, estate tax exclusions, alimony benefits in the case of separation, and tax return benefits, among other things.

b) legal rights so that they may partake in the other’s best interest in cases of emergency, whether financial, medical, or otherwise. This includes hospital visitation rights, power-of-attorney rights, and medical authority rights, among other things.

Notice how none of these benefits benefit children, only the partners in the marriage. United States marriage law only intends to benefit the spouses, not the children. In fact, most states do not even require consummation of a marriage for it to be valid. Most states in the United States recognize celibate marriages (whether same-sex or heterosexual) to be valid.
A gay man and a lesbian woman can have a partnership. If there is not necessarily any sexual aspect to their commitment to each other, then they can have a different-sex civil marriage.
What most Catholics seem to forget when they go down this path of reason, is that one’s sexual orientation does not define simply the physical interest but the emotional aspect as well. Due to our complex “pheromonal” (for they are not truly pheromones) response, our ability to connect on an interpersonal level with someone is also dependent on our sexual orientation. Sure, we can be close friends with anyone, but it is extremely difficult for one to imagine having the ultimate trust and caretaking one can have with a partner they are attracted to. This is primarily the reason most gays and lesbians (but certainly not all; I’ve heard of many gays/lesbians who married the opposite sex even so) scoff at the idea that they can achieve the same closeness in a heterosexual marriage.

Notice that none of this is dependent on sex, and neither is civil marriage (though religious marriage, defined as the original Hebrew word written in the Old Testament to describe the semi-permanent bond between man and woman, certainly is). Hence why the religious are also badly losing the civil debate over the issue.
Similarly, if there is not necessarily any sexual aspect to marriage, then we could imagine a heterosexual Wilbur Wright and a heterosexual Orville Wright having a marriage. They certainly pursued their hobby of trying to achieve heavier-than-air flight together. Both members of the partnership happened to be men. Therefore, if their partnership had been a civil marriage, then it would have been a same-sex civil marriage.
Certainly this could’ve been the case. I mean, if there weren’t such a societal homophobic stigma with regards to men, I’d imagine that it would be more common to see male friends uninterested in religious marriage still getting civilly married in order to take advantage of the ability to protect a close friend of theirs. Although this of course would still involve an emotional connection lesser than they would achieve with a woman (assuming the Wrights were heterosexual), just as a gay man would achieve a stronger one.
If there were a history of same-sex civil marriages between heterosexual partners, then why would there be any connection between same-sex marriage and a movement advertising itself as seeking equality in civil rights, including in particular LGBT civil rights?
Well there’s not really a history of same-sex civil marriages in the country. America has been well too homophobic throughout her history for anything close to that to exist. However, there is a long history of members of the same sex, particularly in the case of homosexuals, taking care of one another through life and helping manage it easier, especially in the days of massive anti-gay persecution by society and police in the United States. And certainly in the United Kingdom during the Victorian era, married women would be physically intimate with each other while their husbands were at work, in order to maintain an emotional bond, with no sexual tie-in attached whatsoever. Intimacy has always been nurtured between members of the same sex except in heavily homophobic cultures, particularly Puritan cultures. We are merely seeing the results of a Puritan society that says “do not be intimate at all with anyone or be in a straight marriage.” When faced with that [incredibly false] choice, it’s no wonder people are associating “marriage” with “emotional intimacy and trust between partners” and thus making an error [though logically consistent with Puritan culture] in concluding that marriage should be extended to both same-sex and opposite-sex committed partners.
 
…, as someone who submits to Church teaching.
Certainly this could’ve been the case. I mean, if there weren’t such a societal homophobic stigma with regards to men, I’d imagine that it would be more common to see male friends uninterested in religious marriage still getting civilly married in order to take advantage of the ability to protect a close friend of theirs. Although this of course would still involve an emotional connection lesser than they would achieve with a woman (assuming the Wrights were heterosexual), just as a gay man would achieve a stronger one.

Well there’s not really a history of same-sex civil marriages in the country. America has been well too homophobic throughout her history for anything close to that to exist. However, there is a long history of members of the same sex, particularly in the case of homosexuals, taking care of one another through life and helping manage it easier, especially in the days of massive anti-gay persecution by society and police in the United States. And certainly in the United Kingdom during the Victorian era, married women would be physically intimate with each other while their husbands were at work, in order to maintain an emotional bond, with no sexual tie-in attached whatsoever. Intimacy has always been nurtured between members of the same sex except in heavily homophobic cultures, particularly Puritan cultures. We are merely seeing the results of a Puritan society that says “do not be intimate at all with anyone or be in a straight marriage.” When faced with that [incredibly false] choice, it’s no wonder people are associating “marriage” with “emotional intimacy and trust between partners” and thus making an error [though logically consistent with Puritan culture] in concluding that marriage should be extended to both same-sex and opposite-sex committed partners.
 
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Stephen168:
Did you have a point to rebut? Because your post has literally no response. Based on your boldings, I am going to assume I know what you are saying, and offer my rebuttal.

I fail to see how someone cannot condemn, let alone recognize, homophobia and be consistent with Church teaching. In fact, I will go further and say I fail to see how someone can be consistent with Church teaching and simultaneously deny or endorse homophobia. Homophobia is a direct violation of Church moral teachings.
 
…, as someone who submits to** Church teaching**.
USCCB Marriageuniqueforareason.org

USCCB said:
3. What is marriage?
Marriage is the lifelong partnership of mutual and exclusive fidelity between a man and a woman ordered by its very nature to the good of the spouses and the procreation and education of children (see CCC, no. 1601; CIC, can. 1055.1; GS, no. 48). The bond of marriage is indissoluble – that is, it lasts “until death do us part.” At the heart of married love is the total gift of self that husband and wife freely offer to each other. Because of their sexual difference, husband and wife can truly become “one flesh” and can give to each other “the reality of children, who are a living reflection of their love” (FC, no. 14).

Marriage between a baptized man and a baptized woman is a sacrament. This means that the bond between husband and wife is a visible sign of the sacrificial love of Christ for his Church. As a sacrament, marriage gives spouses the grace they need to love each other generously, in imitation of Christ.

4. Why can’t marriage be “redefined” to include two men or two women?
The word “marriage” isn’t simply a label that can be attached to different types of relationships. Instead, “marriage” reflects a deep reality – the reality of the unique, fruitful, lifelong union that is only possible between a man and a woman. Just as oxygen and hydrogen are essential to water, sexual difference is essential to marriage. The attempt to “redefine” marriage to include two persons of the same sex denies the reality of what marriage is. It is as impossible as trying to “redefine” water to include oxygen and nitrogen.
Well there’s not really a history of same-sex civil marriages in the country. America has been well too homophobic throughout her history for anything close to that to exist.
 
USCCB Marriageuniqueforareason.org
USCCB:
…] The bond of marriage is indissoluble – that is, it lasts “until death do us part.”
I think this highlights one of the other differences in the requirements for Civil and Sacramental marriages. While a civil marriage can be sacramental there doesn’t seem to be concern with having civil marriages conform to the conditions of Catholic sacramental marriage.
 
I think this highlights one of the other differences in the requirements for Civil and Sacramental marriages.
You are wrong
  1. What is marriage?
    Marriage is the lifelong partnership of mutual and exclusive fidelity between a man and a woman ordered by its very nature to the good of the spouses and the procreation and education of children. The bond of marriage is indissoluble – that is, it lasts “until death do us part.”
Marriage between a baptized man and a baptized woman **is **a sacrament.
While a civil marriage can be sacramental there doesn’t seem to be concern with having civil marriages conform to the conditions of Catholic sacramental marriage.
Correct, except your reason is wrong.
 
You are wrong
Civil marriages can be terminated before end of life. A civil marriage may be life long, but there’s not an obligation for it to be life long. Two people in civil marriage can terminate the marriage and acquire a new civil marriage with some one else.

Is your understanding of this different?
 
Civil marriages can be terminated before end of life. A civil marriage may be life long, but there’s not an obligation for it to be life long. Two people in civil marriage can terminate the marriage and acquire a new civil marriage with some one else.
We can never forget that everything Hitler did in Germany was “legal” and everything the Hungarian freedom fighters did in Hungary was “illegal.” -Martin Luther King, Jr.
Your almost incessant appeal to law is not only irrational but also dangerous, but a common tantrum committed by those who will not reason.
Is your understanding of this different?
Because you asked this question, I’ll assume you didn’t read and/or understand my post.
 
Your almost incessant appeal to law is not only irrational but also dangerous, but a common tantrum committed by those who will not reason.

Because you asked this question, I’ll assume you didn’t read and/or understand my post.
I read your post, but I’ve also fully qualified and several points that I’m speaking about civil marriage (aka “legal marriage.”) The OP asked about legal marriage. I find it interesting that you seem to not want law to be considered in a discussion on legal. I can’t say that I understand why even when I put the “civil” qualifier on my statements that your trying to conflate it with sacramental marriage.

Perhaps your usage of “legal” is similar to how Christine77 has used it in this thread. For clarity I’ll state my usage: concerned with or permitted by the law. The law to which I am referring in my statements is civil law. If your usage of law differs from that than there is a difference between my intended message and what is being interpreted as my message. Hope that helps iron out potential ambiguities.
 
:rolleyes:

A homophobic culture naturally is not going to support same-sex civil marriage. That is not the same as saying that it is homophobic to oppose same-sex civil marriage. I’m sorry that you were unable to comprehend that from my post. I just assumed it was completely obvious, considering I never suggested anything to the effect you took it whatsoever.
 
And certainly in the United Kingdom during the Victorian era, married women would be physically intimate with each other while their husbands were at work, in order to maintain an emotional bond, with no sexual tie-in attached whatsoever. Intimacy has always been nurtured between members of the same sex except in heavily homophobic cultures, particularly Puritan cultures.
The above words suggest one possible meaning of the phrase “homophobic culture”:

A culture in which accusations of homosexual orientation or accusations of homosexual sexual activity prompt a physical and emotional distancing of people of the same sex from each other in an effort to prevent others from making accusations against them, or in an effort to cause those who have made such accusations to cease and desist from making such accusations.

We can compare the phrase “homophobic culture” to the word “claustrophobia.” An individual who suffers from claustrophobia might take extreme measures to avoid riding in elevators. The word “claustrophobia” describes a condition and allows people to explain what might otherwise be an incomprehensible reaction. The word “claustrophobia” is not ordinarily used as an accusation as part of an effort to create new norms of behavior or in conformity to authorities who are trying to create new norms of behavior. It merely describes an actual condition. Similarly, the phrase “homophobic culture” can be simply descriptive and explanatory.

The quote at the beginning of this message consists of the words of SMGS127, but the bolding of the word “homophobic” was added by Stephen168.
 
The above words suggest one possible meaning of the phrase “homophobic culture”:

A culture in which accusations of homosexual orientation or accusations of homosexual sexual activity prompt a physical and emotional distancing of people of the same sex from each other in an effort to prevent others from making accusations against them, or in an effort to cause those who have made such accusations to cease and desist from making such accusations.
The first time the word homophobe was used, in 1969, that was the intended meaning of the author. It has never meant that since. Homophobe as it is usually used, makes an illegitimately pejorative evaluation of certain open and debatable value positions. So it seems odd to use a pejorative to reference a position you believe in.
A homophobic culture naturally is not going to support same-sex civil marriage. That is not the same as saying that it is homophobic to oppose same-sex civil marriage. I’m sorry that you were unable to comprehend that from my post. I just assumed it was completely obvious, considering I never suggested anything to the effect you took it whatsoever.
So you are against giving a marriage license to same sex couple?
 
I see the OP asking about marriage and you are constantly appealing to law.

I’m trying to decide if you are unwilling or unable to understand post #89.
I understand it, I simply think we are not talking about the same thing. You are talking about marriage according to Catholicism. I am talking about civil (legal) marriage.
 
I understand it, I simply think we are not talking about the same thing. You are talking about marriage according to Catholicism. I am talking about civil (legal) marriage.
Marriage did not have its origins in the law. Nor are Mariage and the state’s granting of marriage licences, two independent ideas, though some prefer to view it that way.
 
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