Is this a marriage or a same sex fraud?

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I just read a story of a married couple in Mississippi and I wanted to get your thoughts.

The husband was born female. He went through psych eval and counseling, was given hormone therapy, and had the sex change surgery. He is a physical male complete with constructed penis and testicle implants. He, presumably, can have sex in the normal male-female way although he cannot naturally procreate as a male. And he is legally a male, now, complete with birth certificate, SS card, and ID saying his gender is male. With that documentation he could legally marry a female, which he did.

On the one hand, physically they are an opposite sex couple legally married. On the other hand, one was born a different sex. So, is this marriage a fraud or a marriage?

ETA a link to the article.
xojane.com/family/a-homophobic-attack-on-a-womans-marriage
 
Fraud. This is not a real marriage. Pope Benedict was clear that a sex change operation does not change the person’s sex. The “husband” was born a female and his chromosomes are XX hence he is still considered a female. She could never become a male. This couple is living a lie pretending that she is a he but reality is that she is a female pretending to be male. To the eyes of the church there is no marriage here
 
Though I want to mention that after reading the article, the cousin’s attitude is out of line. It is true that it is not a real marriage and that he is in reality a she but the cousin’s attitude is not charitable. I agree that the cousin should have stated to her that it is not a real marriage but the whole Facebook post and contacting organizations is way out of line. We need to tell the truth in a charitable way. What the cousin is doing is not the right way to handle this issues.
 
marymary1975 said:
Fraud. This is not a real marriage. Pope Benedict was clear that a sex change operation does not change the person’s sex. The “husband” was born a female and his chromosomes are XX hence he is still considered a female. She could never become a male. This couple is living a lie pretending that she is a he but reality is that she is a female pretending to be male. To the eyes of the church there is no marriage here
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They are civally married, so it is not a sacramental marriage in the eyes of the Church. It’s a real marriage for the couple in the eyes of the law.
 
kozlosap said:
They are civally married, so it is not a sacramental marriage in the eyes of the Church. It’s a real marriage for the couple in the eyes of the law.
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It is a legal marriage but is not a real marriage. The fact that something is legal does not make it real. It is as real as any marriage between two people of the same sex. It may be approved by law but in reality it is a woman pretending to be a man and pretending to have a heterosexual marriage so it is a fraud.
 
marymary1975 said:
It is a legal marriage but is not a real marriage. The fact that something is legal does not make it real. It is as real as any marriage between two people of the same sex. It may be approved by law but in reality it is a woman pretending to be a man and pretending to have a heterosexual marriage so it is a fraud.
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Exactly. They might as well have gotten a court order requiring people to recognize them as Napoleon and Josephine.
 
Exactly.

It’s actually several frauds piled on top of each other.
 
I’m surprised that medical science can actually accomplish such a feat. I thought they could get close, but not really.

Waaaait a minute…is that Leonardo DiCaprio in the pic?
 
Lipstick on a pig.

In 1000 when they do a DNA test on her, they will conclude that she was a female.

Your mental state of being does not dictate physical realities. You can have wings grafted to your body and a beak implant but you won’t really be a bird. Men and women may both be human, but, they are not the same things.

So, while legal, their marriage could never be recognized by the Church IF it new the medical history of the woman (who claims to be a man.)
 
on_the_hill said:
I’m surprised that medical science can actually accomplish such a feat. I thought they could get close, but not really.

Waaaait a minute…is that Leonardo DiCaprio in the pic?
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The medical tech has been available and widely used for many years. I have a friend who is convinced he is a she. He’s been trying to finance the sex change operation for about a decade. He wants to go overseas. It’s much cheaper in a few countries than it is here. It is about 20k US dollars to have the entire procedure completed overseas including recovery stay at the hospital and a recovery period of a few days to a week in a resort.

It’s actually fascinating. The procedure, I mean. The hormones cause breast tissue to grow and the man to lose some masculine characteristics while gaining some female characteristics. The actual turning of a vagina into a penis and testicles or vice versa is even more fascinating. Assuming the procedure and hormones are all handled correctly, the patient is able to function sexually even though they cannot reproduce naturally.

Which is why I am confussled. Part of why a marriage must contain a man and a woman is that homosexuals cannot have intercourse. Saying “gay sex” is silly. They aren’t having sex. They are doing something, but it’s not sex. Sex means intercourse. “Gay sex” is a term we use because we lack a term that doesn’t involve the word sex and conveys a physically intimate act that somewhat simulates sex among homosexuals. I firmly believe we need a word that is widely understood to describe “gay sex”, but doesn’t call it sex. Anyways, off my tangent and back to the thread…

In this case, the couple CAN have intercourse since the former woman now has a penis. Which is why it’s so…urgh.
 
MJJean said:
…
Which is why I am confussled. Part of why a marriage must contain a man and a woman is that homosexuals cannot have intercourse. …

In this case, the couple CAN have intercourse since the former woman now has a penis. Which is why it’s so…urgh.
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How to say this???

When someone’s body has been surgically manipulated to cause the body parts to perform unnatural functions, that’s not genuine human intercourse. For that reason, even though the physical characteristics might (mostly) be there, it is still not a human body behaving in the way God created that body to behave. That’s why such behavior cannot constitute the marital act.
 
“testicle implants” not testicles. The validity of Catholic marriages is linked to the couple’s openness to children… and implants won’t do it.
 
Erich said:
“testicle implants” not testicles. The validity of Catholic marriages is linked to the couple’s openness to children… and implants won’t do it.
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Someday, they might be effective (it’s actually a likely possibility). But that still won’t change anything.

The point is not “they don’t work” but rather “that’s against God’s created order.” It’s an important distinction.
 
FrDavid96 said:
Someday, they might be effective (it’s actually a likely possibility). But that still won’t change anything.

The point is not “they don’t work” but rather “that’s against God’s created order.” It’s an important distinction.
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It is not in fact possible for women to produce sperm, or men eggs, regardless of what medical advancements are made.
 
Paleocon said:
It is not in fact possible for women to produce sperm, or men eggs, regardless of what medical advancements are made.
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It might be possible someday. Researchers are actually working on doing this.

That is not the point though—whether or not it is possible (yes, it’s immoral but that’s a different topic for a different thread). The point is that even if it does become possible, it would always be a violation of God’s creation. Therefore, no amount of surgical manipulation (no matter how far it goes) could ever cause the type of situation being discussed here to be a genuine marriage.
 
FrDavid96 said:
It might be possible someday. Researchers are actually working on doing this.

That is not the point though—whether or not it is possible (yes, it’s immoral but that’s a different topic for a different thread). The point is that even if it does become possible, it would always be a violation of God’s creation. Therefore, no amount of surgical manipulation (no matter how far it goes) could ever cause the type of situation being discussed here to be a genuine marriage.
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The only way it would be possible would be if they used stem cells from someone of the target gender.
 
Paleocon said:
The only way it would be possible would be if they used stem cells from someone of the target gender.
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You are missing the entire point.

If it becomes possible (and I’m not going to waste more time on “the only way it would be possible…”) that will not change things to make these situations into genuine marriages.

Do you understand the point here? If we take the position that “it’s not a marriage because X is not physically possible” then when “X” does become physically possible that means that it could be a marriage–and that would be an untruth.

It is not about whether or not “X” (whatever that might be) is possible today, or might be possible in the future. It’s about whether or not “X” violates God’s created order.

If it violates God’s created order, then it’s not a legitimate marital act.
 
FrDavid96 said:
You are missing the entire point.

If it becomes possible (and I’m not going to waste more time on “the only way it would be possible…”) that will not change things to make these situations into genuine marriages.

Do you understand the point here? If we take the position that “it’s not a marriage because X is not physically possible” then when “X” does become physically possible that means that it could be a marriage–and that would be an untruth.

It is not about whether or not “X” (whatever that might be) is possible today, or might be possible in the future. It’s about whether or not “X” violates God’s created order.

If it violates God’s created order, then it’s not a legitimate marital act.
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I agree. I was just pointing that the idea that “all things are possible through science” is a false one.
 
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