Is this a point of puzzlement to you?

[rcwitness]

What are the chances of an atheist seeing God in the Mass?

100% … they just happen to deny Him still, because His glory is not seen, only His humility. He is revealed through the Liturgy of the Word and Eucharist.

“Behold, the Lamb of God who takes away the sins of the world.”
And
“The Word of the Lord.”

In the Mass, He calls us to partake in the Communion of the flesh and blood that overcame the world, because the Father placed His seal on Him. We don’t realize this reality through the senses of our flesh and blood, but through the Spirit who calls us to His Son.

Mass means “sent”. We gather to receive our Lord’s food, and are sent to “be Christ” to others. We are nourished at the table of Scripture and Eucharist. We proclaim the death of the Lord, until He comes again.

 

[Wannano]

Yes, I don’t doubt there are “pockets” everywhere, where miracles of faith occur. This is not exclusive to the Catholic Church. Though, it’s not done as a sign, but rather answers to prayers. And it’s also just rumors. It may occur, or it may not. There are counterfeit performances. I would have to see some real stories to be convinced they are genuine healings done as a sign of God confirming a Communities justification in being independent of the See of Rome.

 

[rcwitness]

… personally, I am not sure I believe that God is concerned about what denomination we identify with

I do not identify with this sentiment…

 

[jericho777]

I’m not denying miracles through various Christians. What about the other things I mentioned?

Yes demons cast out. What else? Cancer, diabetes, bipolar, Alzheimer. And many more.

 

[rcwitness]

Yes demons cast out. What else? Cancer, diabetes, bipolar, Alzheimer. And many more.

This was my comment:
Well you tell me which Protestant Church is healing illnesses, casting out demons, …**and the “whole Church” is in fear of, and one chief steward goes “here and there among them all” **…and I’ll join that same day.

 

[rcwitness]

Yes demons cast out. What else? Cancer, diabetes, bipolar, Alzheimer. And many more.

Btw, I don’t take lightly these things. Are they truly happening? Where are you?

 

[Wannano]

Be careful what you call “more Protestant” my friend. Do you really believe Martin Luther would consider himself more Protestant, or more Catholic in these modern times? Would he identify with the Catholic faith more than, say your typical “Independent church”?

[/quote]
[/QUOTE]

 

[jimkhong]

What are the chances of an atheist seeing God in the Mass?

I presume that this is a sincere question and I do not think you are just looking to be argumentative.

First, my statement is that an atheist can see something beautiful in the Mass. I didn’t say it is necessarily God.

I hope that we can agree that the Mass is so rich that there are so many aspects that is present in there, not all of them religious. It will be strange for something so fundamentally part of human society to be devoid of human social aspects and only contain overtly religious aspects. Nevertheless as Catholics who believe in the sovereignty of God, I hope we could also agree those non-religious aspects are there because God put them there.

Take a very mundane everyday example. A young man goes to Mass last Sunday to see his girlfriend. He is only interested in her and see nothing else of the Mass. Now, we do not know what God’s plans are for this young man to be there at Mass. Maybe God intend for a conversion of that young man at Mass. Maybe God’s plan leads somewhere else. We won’t know but what we do know is that that young man is at Mass because of God’s will.

So, whatever any non-religious aspects of Mass is likely there because of God.

Also, we all see different things even when we are looking at the same thing. Three persons look up at the stars. One saw poetry, One saw fusion reactions happening deep in solar furnaces orbited by planets, One saw the grandeur of God’s creation. I don’t think we can argue that any of them is wrong. They can all be right, depending on the context. However, talking about the grandeur of Creation when someone is trying to figure out how to set up his telescope is probably just out of context. Similarly, trying to explain why the ambo is at the right of the altar when someone is presenting an academic paper on the role of Catholic attendance of the Mass in the Troubles in Northern Ireland in the 1970’s is probably also out of context. Of course there is always that person who look at the stars and see some cosmic force unknown to the rest of us which will determine how your day will go tomorrow. He/she may be right (who knows ) but mainstream science and religion will respectfully disagree.

My point is that we all choose the context by which we view something and that often determines what we see. Right or wrong. An atheist will look at the Mass through the lens of atheism and if open, sees something beautiful and will interpret that something beautiful as something secular based on his/her experience of atheism. No different from an Orthodox Jew interpreting everything that happens around him as God’s action to preserve his people because that is his experience.

The atheist will end up describing that same thing we see in very different terms to us. Now, lets assume that there is nothing factually incorrect in that view - they do not see an intention that is explicitly contrary to Church teaching (eg., seeing something beautiful in bread & wine turning into a physical body & blood) We have a choice of at least two reactions. Reject it and insist that everyone can only see everything using the same lens that God has given us. Or to revel in the richness of God’s experience and see if this new view has anything to add to the richness of our own experience. I will choose the latter and God in his wisdom may lead someone else to choose the former. That is the same richness in the wealth of differing views that can hopefully lead me to understand my own understanding better.

 

[jimkhong]

Thank you, much to think about in your post

GBY

Thanks. Understanding another point of view does not mean we have to agree with it but sometimes understanding another point of view helps us to understand our own point of view. Sometimes, hearing another point of view forces us to rethink what we really believe in and either we adjust our beliefs to something more appropriate or we adjust our language & clarify our thoughts. I know it has definitely helped me.

Sorry about the sermon but some of the arguing going on seems to miss this point. There is so much in the world to learn and yet sometimes we seem to be so afraid to open ourselves up to it. One principle that have guided me on this journey was a criteria for inter-religious dialogue given by an Muslim writer I came across when I was young:

Inter-religious dialogue is like opening windows to other people’s homes. But windows imply walls and we must all know where our walls are.

Wise words and knowing my walls (and adjusting/upgrading them when needed) has given me the security to go into the unknown and understand & sometimes accept differing points of view without any damage to my faith and belief/values system.

 

[Wannano]

Thanks. Understanding another point of view does not mean we have to agree with it but sometimes understanding another point of view helps us to understand our own point of view. Sometimes, hearing another point of view forces us to rethink what we really believe in and either we adjust our beliefs to something more appropriate or we adjust our language & clarify our thoughts. I know it has definitely helped me.

Sorry about the sermon but some of the arguing going on seems to miss this point. There is so much in the world to learn and yet sometimes we seem to be so afraid to open ourselves up to it. One principle that have guided me on this journey was a criteria for inter-religious dialogue given by an Muslim writer I came across when I was young:

Wise words and knowing my walls (and adjusting/upgrading them when needed) has given me the security to go into the unknown and understand & sometimes accept differing points of view without any damage to my faith and belief/values system.

 

[rcwitness]

Thanks. Understanding another point of view does not mean we have to agree with it but sometimes understanding another point of view helps us to understand our own point of view…

Maybe I was looking at the Mass, as the Church intends us to receive it as. The Church calls this “event” and “celebration” as the source and summit of the Christian life. To reduce the Mass to “not necessary to agree with” is less than accurate.

Yes, we can acknowledge aspects of human nature and material beauty in any human institution. But these are trivial matters compared to the reason for the Mass. The reason cannot be discarded, but rather, we lift up our hearts to be healed and strengthened by the Lord, who invites us to participate with faith at this Sacred Table.

 

[PJM]

What are the chances of an atheist seeing God in the Mass?

SLIM, BUT NOT impossible

 

[PJM]

SLIM, BUT NOT impossible

Certainly better than NOT being at Mass

GBY

 

[dronald]

Since you asked I’ll pose a question!

What’s the difference between going to Mass just to avoid the mortal sin and not going to Mass at all? Wouldn’t both show a heart that is not right with God and needs repentance?

At my Church, if your hearts not in it while your there then you’re missing the point. God wants our hearts, not our attendance; though our attendance can be evidence of where our heart is.

 

[PJM]

**quote **
Originally Posted by Wannano View Post
… personally, I am not sure I believe that God is concerned about what denomination we identify with end quote

I do not identify with this sentiment…

Nor do I, nor ought we.

Nowhere in the bible, in history, or in Moral Theology can it be demonistrated that TRUTH does not matter to God:

Father John A. Hardon S.J. [a former mentor of mine] and one of the most respected Theologians of the 20th Century, taught this about truth:

“TRUTH IS THE CONDITION OF GRACE; IT IS THE SOURCE OF GRACE; IT IS THE CHANNEL OF GRACE; IT IS THE DIVINELY ORDAINED REQUIREMENT OF GRACE”

How then is this relevant to Wannano’s POSTED position?

John 14:6 "Jesus saith to him: I am the way, **and the truth [SINGULAR] **, and the life. No man cometh to the Father, but by me.

Truth can be noting other than SINGULAR per defined Issue; and not even GOD is capable of holding NOT only differing sets of Faith-truths; but often, contradictory ones as well.

What our friend is missing is that:

NO CHURCH CAN BE SEPARATED FROM IT’S OWN FREELY CHOSEN SET OF FAITH BELIEFS; AS IT IS ONE’S “FAITH BELIEFS” THAT DEFINE THAT AND ANY/ALL CHURCHES."

Hence logically and morally there can be but ONE True Church: “MY CHURCH” Mt 16:18 SINGULAR Which Christ proclaimed nearly 1,600 years before Luther and the reformation.

GBY

God Bless you

Patrick

 

[rcwitness]

Since you asked I’ll pose a question!

What’s the difference between going to Mass just to avoid the mortal sin and not going to Mass at all? Wouldn’t both show a heart that is not right with God and needs repentance?

At my Church, if your hearts not in it while your there then you’re missing the point. God wants our hearts, not our attendance; though our attendance can be evidence of where our heart is.

Celebrant Priest: “Lift up your hearts!”

Congregation: “We lift them up to the Lord!”

You are correct, it would be quite contradictory to attend Mass with an indifference of heart.

 

[PJM]

Thanks. Understanding another point of view does not mean we have to agree with it but sometimes understanding another point of view helps us to understand our own point of view. Sometimes, hearing another point of view forces us to rethink what we really believe in and either we adjust our beliefs to something more appropriate or we adjust our language & clarify our thoughts. I know it has definitely helped me.

Sorry about the sermon but some of the arguing going on seems to miss this point. There is so much in the world to learn and yet sometimes we seem to be so afraid to open ourselves up to it. One principle that have guided me on this journey was a criteria for inter-religious dialogue given by an Muslim writer I came across when I was young:

Wise words and knowing my walls (and adjusting/upgrading them when needed) has given me the security to go into the unknown and understand & sometimes accept differing points of view without any damage to my faith and belief/values system.

LOVED your quote:thumbsup:

Thanks, My wife and I co=taught CCD for about 10 years.

THAT"S where one can make a difference IMO

GBY

Patrick

 

[PJM]

Maybe I was looking at the Mass, as the Church intends us to receive it as. The Church calls this “event” and “celebration” as the source and summit of the Christian life. To reduce the Mass to “not necessary to agree with” is less than accurate.

Yes, we can acknowledge aspects of human nature and material beauty in any human institution. But these are trivial matters compared to the reason for the Mass. The reason cannot be discarded, but rather, we lift up our hearts to be healed and strengthened by the Lord, who invites us to participate with faith at this Sacred Table.

AMEN!

 

[Wannano]

**quote **
Originally Posted by Wannano View Post
… personally, I am not sure I believe that God is concerned about what denomination we identify with end quote

Nor do I, nor ought we.

Nowhere in the bible, in history, or in Moral Theology can it be demonistrated that TRUTH does not matter to God:

Father John A. Hardon S.J. [a former mentor of mine] and one of the most respected Theologians of the 20th Century, taught this about truth:

“TRUTH IS THE CONDITION OF GRACE; IT IS THE SOURCE OF GRACE; IT IS THE CHANNEL OF GRACE; IT IS THE DIVINELY ORDAINED REQUIREMENT OF GRACE”

How then is this relevant to Wannano’s POSTED position?

John 14:6 "Jesus saith to him: I am the way, **and the truth [SINGULAR] **, and the life. No man cometh to the Father, but by me.

Truth can be noting other than SINGULAR per defined Issue; and not even GOD is capable of holding NOT only differing sets of Faith-truths; but often, contradictory ones as well.

What our friend is missing is that:

NO CHURCH CAN BE SEPARATED FROM IT’S OWN FREELY CHOSEN SET OF FAITH BELIEFS; AS IT IS ONE’S “FAITH BELIEFS” THAT DEFINE THAT AND ANY/ALL CHURCHES."

Hence logically and morally there can be but ONE True Church: “MY CHURCH” Mt 16:18 SINGULAR Which Christ proclaimed nearly 1,600 years before Luther and the reformation.

GBY

God Bless you

Patrick

And the Church Catholic that Jesus started comprises of individuals that believe on Him and His message. There is indeed only one true Church.

Just so you know Pjm, I am not as lost as you judge me to be.

 

[PJM]

Since you asked I’ll pose a question!

What’s the difference between going to Mass just to avoid the mortal sin and not going to Mass at all? Wouldn’t both show a heart that is not right with God and needs repentance?

At my Church, if your hearts not in it while your there then you’re missing the point. God wants our hearts, not our attendance; though our attendance can be evidence of where our heart is.

Here’s the difference

Because the Mass truly DOES make Jesus PRESENT to us; it is the channel of extraordinary OPPORTUNITIES for God’s Grace.

The amount of grace OFFERED depends on multiple factors such as the intentions of the Priest AND the degree of “active participation” by the Mass attendee.

The Amount of Grace actually received is greatly influenced by one’s attitude, awareness of being in the Presence of Jesus, being active, respectful and thankful for such an opportunity.

BUT just being there in obedience to GODS Commandment makes a certain amount of Gods grace available.

So the difference is:

Some grace & and an OPPORTUNITY for Much grace verses committing a Mortal sin by ignoring GODS Commandment to “Keep Holy MY Sabbath Day.” Amen!

GBY and thanks for asking

Patrick