Is this a possible solution

[eo_chibears]

I have always been troubled by the different stories of genocide in the Old Testament. Entire populations of men, women and children being drowned or put to the sword are not the God I know and love. Could it be that God never ordered there atrocities and instead they are stories to warn us about being evil?

 

[GEddie]

I have always been troubled by the different stories of genocide in the Old Testament. Entire populations of men, women and children being drowned or put to the sword are not the God I know and love. Could it be that God never ordered there atrocities and instead they are stories to warn us about being evil?

I don’t know. If there was a flood, it was ordered by God, as no lower being could unleash such.

There is no non-ugly-tasting answer to these horrors. The only answer I can offer is the one given by my spiritual advisor, whom I trust wholeheadedly: “A life committed to evil is so unsatisfying that a loss of being is preferable.”

God Bless and ICXC NIKA

 

[The_Bucket]

I have always been troubled by the different stories of genocide in the Old Testament. Entire populations of men, women and children being drowned or put to the sword are not the God I know and love. Could it be that God never ordered there atrocities and instead they are stories to warn us about being evil?

Truthfully, I don’t know the Church’s answer to this. But I would tend to absolutely agree with you. People in ancient days attributed great disasters to God’s wrath (or the wrath of the gods as the case may be for those societies) but we understand more about His creation today. Bad things happen and the root of all evil and misfortune in life is sin. If we as a collective humanity had never sinned, none of us would have ever met an earthly end.

I certainly see most if not all of these stories as allegories and reminders that sin is the reason for all suffering in our lives, even if natural forces created them.

 

[eo_chibears]

I don’t know. If there was a flood, it was ordered by God, as no lower being could unleash such.

There is no non-ugly-tasting answer to these horrors. The only answer I can offer is the one given by my spiritual advisor, whom I trust wholeheadedly: “A life committed to evil is so unsatisfying that a loss of being is preferable.”

God Bless and ICXC NIKA

I disagree that it was ordered by God. Natural disasters have happened throughout the earth’s history and have taken countless lives in the process. I feel its completely believable that a naturally occuring flood killed many people and it was attributed to God’s wrath at that time. I don’t want to go against what the Church teaches though, I just wasn’t completely sure if there is an official stance on topics such as this. God Bless you.

 

[eo_chibears]

Truthfully, I don’t know the Church’s answer to this. But I would tend to absolutely agree with you. People in ancient days attributed great disasters to God’s wrath (or the wrath of the gods as the case may be for those societies) but we understand more about His creation today. Bad things happen and the root of all evil and misfortune in life is sin. If we as a collective humanity had never sinned, none of us would have ever met an earthly end.

I certainly see most if not all of these stories as allegories and reminders that sin is the reason for all suffering in our lives, even if natural forces created them.

Yes that makes sense to me. Men, women and children being butchered I think at that time were war time atrocities, the same thing is happening today in the word. I think the genocide in those times were chalked up as God’s punishment, when in reality God never ordered them to happen.

 

[bzkoss236]

For me, as harsh as these things may seem, there are some things that I feel had to happen for God’s plan of redemption to partake. I feel that these events had to happen to put the right people in the right place for Jesus to be born where He was and to spread the Gospel where he did. I doubt God took any pleasure in these events, but saw them as necessary for the good of the world. I could be wrong in my assessment, but that is how I see it.

 

[RPRPsych]

Well, in an anagogical sense, the OP is correct; those incidents are recorded to warn us of the last things, and of the judgement that we all must face.

And in an allegorical sense, they do represent spiritual warfare, and the triumph of Christ and his Church over Satan, sin, and false religions.

But there is a literal sense that cannot be ignored.

My own “solution” (feel free to dissect this, it’s just private reflection) is that God has to work with human limitations.

First: Even if God had wanted a “peaceful” solution or “negotiation” between the Israelites and, say, the Amalekites, it wouldn’t have worked, because of the wickedness of men, but also because of the culture at that time. Men of that age in history simply didn’t work that way. It has taken the direct revelation of Christ Himself for us to accept that peacemakers are, indeed, blessed, and for that idea to penetrate our culture. Divine Providence ordained the solution that would have preserved the maximum number of lives and souls, Israelite and non-Israelite. (Remember that many of the children being “butchered” may have been invincibly ignorant, and could have attained eternal life.)

Second: we must acknowledge, as Job did, that God knows best. The consequences of an act can reach across centuries and millennia. For a very trivial example, consider the following: was it unfair of God to cause Naomi’s husband and two sons to die, and leave her (and her foreign daughter-in-law) poor and dependent on charity? Not so, because the eventual consequence of this event was Ruth and Boaz’s marriage (immediate), the rise of David as the greatest of the Israelite kings (some centuries later) and finally the Davidic line that gave rise to St. Joseph, Our Blessed Mother, and Jesus Christ Himself (1200 years or so later). So though we may instinctly be revolted by the battles in the Old Testament, we must accept that God permitted these things to happen because they were part of His plan. To say otherwise would reduce the Israelites to the level of Assyrians or Babylonians, and would sever any meaningful connection between the OT and NT.

Third: being omniscient, God knows not just what will happen, but “what might have been” if a different course is taken. When He makes a choice, or commands the Israelites to take action in a particular way, He has also considered the alternatives. So while particular acts might seem horrific to our modern minds, the alternatives might have been much worse. (Compare the annals of other wars, battles or conquests, both in the past and in our “civilized” age, for some examples.)

I realise none of these are perfect solutions, and they could never be, because I can’t read the mind of God. But even when we can only see “through a glass, darkly”, we have to trust that He knows what he is doing.

 

[eo_chibears]

Well, in an anagogical sense, the OP is correct; those incidents are recorded to warn us of the last things, and of the judgement that we all must face.

And in an allegorical sense, they do represent spiritual warfare, and the triumph of Christ and his Church over Satan, sin, and false religions.

But there is a literal sense that cannot be ignored.

My own “solution” (feel free to dissect this, it’s just private reflection) is that God has to work with human limitations.

First: Even if God had wanted a “peaceful” solution or “negotiation” between the Israelites and, say, the Amalekites, it wouldn’t have worked, because of the wickedness of men, but also because of the culture at that time. Men of that age in history simply didn’t work that way. It has taken the direct revelation of Christ Himself for us to accept that peacemakers are, indeed, blessed, and for that idea to penetrate our culture. Divine Providence ordained the solution that would have preserved the maximum number of lives and souls, Israelite and non-Israelite. (Remember that many of the children being “butchered” may have been invincibly ignorant, and could have attained eternal life.)

Second: we must acknowledge, as Job did, that God knows best. The consequences of an act can reach across centuries and millennia. For a very trivial example, consider the following: was it unfair of God to cause Naomi’s husband and two sons to die, and leave her (and her foreign daughter-in-law) poor and dependent on charity? Not so, because the eventual consequence of this event was Ruth and Boaz’s marriage (immediate), the rise of David as the greatest of the Israelite kings (some centuries later) and finally the Davidic line that gave rise to St. Joseph, Our Blessed Mother, and Jesus Christ Himself (1200 years or so later). So though we may instinctly be revolted by the battles in the Old Testament, we must accept that God permitted these things to happen because they were part of His plan. To say otherwise would reduce the Israelites to the level of Assyrians or Babylonians, and would sever any meaningful connection between the OT and NT.

Third: being omniscient, God knows not just what will happen, but “what might have been” if a different course is taken. When He makes a choice, or commands the Israelites to take action in a particular way, He has also considered the alternatives. So while particular acts might seem horrific to our modern minds, the alternatives might have been much worse. (Compare the annals of other wars, battles or conquests, both in the past and in our “civilized” age, for some examples.)

I realise none of these are perfect solutions, and they could never be, because I can’t read the mind of God. But even when we can only see “through a glass, darkly”, we have to trust that He knows what he is doing.

I definitley trust that God knows what he is doing. I just have a hard time seeing God taking innocent life, even if it may be for some greater good. I see him as a protector of the innocent in all circumstances. We as Catholics do his work on earth by fighting for the unborn and battling abortion. Many of the people who were killed in the Old Testament would have been innocent children. I don’t think God wanted that.

 

[MarcoPolo]

.

I like this answer from another thread:

.

There’s different reasons for all the violence that happened in the OT. Some were done by man’s free will which lead to results being not God’s decision but the result of the sin committed by man which affected others. Sometimes God punished in order to protect His people. Sometimes He punished because people disobeyed Him. But many times God gave warnings and was merciful. To ignore God’s mercy in the OT is to not be honest. God did often warn strong consequences for sins, but often those strong warning which looks overly harsh were done not so God can punish, but to deter people from sinning. Sin has nasty results in this world, it leads to the fall of kingdoms and governments, homes and families, the innocent suffers because of the sins of the people.

God at times had people destroyed in order to protect His people from idolatry and future threats. God knows the future and knows what will happen before it ever happens. So when God saw the path of the world headed a certain way that would ultimately end up bringing destruction to His people, then He would command or permit things to happen that would not allow that.

Also, remember, the stories of the Old Testament often prefigured things of the New Testament. So for instance, when the Jews escaped the clutches of Pharoah and their battalions were swallowed up in the waters of the Red Sea, it is a figure for the elect “escaping” sin and the waters wash the “sin” clean, freeing us from “enslavement” to sin. Paul tells us that the event is a type of baptism.*1 Corinthians 10:1-2 I want you to know, brethren, that our fathers were all under the cloud, and all passed through the sea, and all were baptized into Moses in the cloud and in the sea.*As well, if persons who died in OT stories were truly “innocent,” there really isn’t an injustice in God calling that person to heaven by being victim of a flood or something. The temporal suffering is infinitesimally nothing compared to the eternal joy received.

 

[eo_chibears]

.

I like this answer from another thread:

.Also, remember, the stories of the Old Testament often prefigured things of the New Testament. So for instance, when the Jews escaped the clutches of Pharoah and their battalions were swallowed up in the waters of the Red Sea, it is a figure for the elect “escaping” sin and the waters wash the “sin” clean, freeing us from “enslavement” to sin. Paul tells us that the event is a type of baptism.*1 Corinthians 10:1-2 I want you to know, brethren, that our fathers were all under the cloud, and all passed through the sea, and all were baptized into Moses in the cloud and in the sea.*As well, if persons who died in OT stories were truly “innocent,” there really isn’t an injustice in God calling that person to heaven by being victim of a flood or something. The temporal suffering is infinitesimally nothing compared to the eternal joy received.

I’d assume many of the people were “innocent,” considering many of the ones killed would have been children and unborn babies in their mothers wombs. I guess genocide just doesn’t sit very well with me.

 

[bauerice]

Truthfully, I don’t know the Church’s answer to this. But I would tend to absolutely agree with you. People in ancient days attributed great disasters to God’s wrath (or the wrath of the gods as the case may be for those societies) but we understand more about His creation today. Bad things happen and the root of all evil and misfortune in life is sin. If we as a collective humanity had never sinned, none of us would have ever met an earthly end.

That is one of the best answers I have heard about something, so puzzling.

 

[MarcoPolo]

I guess genocide just doesn’t sit very well with me.

As an earth-faring human, that is quite understandable. Also check out Apologist Jimmy Akin’s article on the subject of genocide and the so-called “Old Testament God.”

 

[joe370]

I have always been troubled by the different stories of genocide in the Old Testament. Entire populations of men, women and children being drowned or put to the sword are not the God I know and love. Could it be that God never ordered there atrocities and instead they are stories to warn us about being evil?

I used to think that way until it occurred to me that God provides an eternal hell which infinitely worse than anything imaginable here on earth.

God possess perfect mercy and perfect justice. Jesus, to Saint Faustina so desperately wants each soul to take advantage of His boundless mercy;

Tell souls not to place within their own hearts obstacles to My mercy, which so greatly wants to act within them. My mercy works in all those hearts which open their doors to it. Both the sinner and the righteous person have need of My mercy. Conversion, as well as perseverance, is a grace of My mercy.” (1577)
2. “Let Souls who are striving for perfection particularly adore My mercy, because the abundance of graces which I grant them flows from My mercy.” (1578)
3. “I received a deeper understanding of divine mercy. Only that soul who wants it will be damned, for God condemns no one.” (1452)
4.** “I have opened my Heart as a living fountain of mercy. Let all souls draw life from it. Let them approach this sea of mercy with great trust. Sinners will attain justification, and the just will be confirmed in good. Whoever places his trust in My mercy will be filled with My divine peace at the hour of death.”** (1520)
5. “And I understood that the greatest attribute of God is love and mercy. It unites the creature with the Creator. This immense love and abyss of mercy are made known in the Incarnation of the Word and in the Redemption [of humanity], and it is here that I saw this as the greatest of all God’s attributes.” (181)
6. “Let the greatest sinners place their trust in My mercy. They have the right before others to trust in the abyss of My mercy. My daughter, write about My mercy towards tormented souls. Souls that make an appeal to My mercy delight Me. To such souls I grant even more graces than they ask. I cannot punish even the greatest sinner if he makes an appeal to My compassion, but on the contrary, I justify him in My unfathomable and inscrutable mercy. Write: before I come as a just judge, I first open wide the door of My mercy. He who refuses to pass through the door of My mercy must pass through the door of My justice…” (1146)
7. “The flames of mercy are burning me. I desire to pour them out upon human souls. Oh, what pain they cause Me when they do not want to accept them!.” (1074 – paragraph 2)
8. “Tell My daughter, that I am Love and Mercy itself. When a soul approaches Me with trust, I fill it with such an abundance of graces that it cannot contain them within itself, but radiates them to other souls.” (1074 – paragraph 4)
9.” There is no misery that could be a match for My mercy, neither will misery exhaust it, because as it is being granted-it increases. The soul that trusts in My mercy is most fortunate, because I myself take care of it.” (1273)
10. **“Today the Lord said to me, Daughter, when you go to confession, to this fountain of My mercy, the Blood and Water which came forth from My heart always flows down upon your soul and ennobles it. Every time you go to confession, immerse yourself entirely in My mercy, with great trust, so that I may pour the bounty of My grace upon your soul. When you approach the confessional, know this, that I Myself am waiting there for you. I am only hidden by the priest, but I myself act in your soul. Here the misery of the soul meets the God of mercy. Tell souls that from this fount of mercy souls draw graces solely with the vessel of trust. If their trust is great, there is no limit to My generosity. The torrents of grace inundate humble souls. The proud remain always in poverty and misery, because My grace turns way from them to humble souls.” **(1602)

 

[joe370]

I have always been troubled by the different stories of genocide in the Old Testament. Entire populations of men, women and children being drowned or put to the sword are not the God I know and love. Could it be that God never ordered there atrocities and instead they are stories to warn us about being evil?

I used to think that way until it occurred to me that God provides an eternal hell which is infinitely worse than anything imaginable here on earth.

God possess perfect mercy and perfect justice. Jesus said to Saint Faustina that he so desperately wants each soul to take advantage of His boundless mercy. He then says: He who refuses to pass through the door of My mercy must pass through the door of My justice;

"Tell souls not to place within their own hearts obstacles to My mercy, which so greatly wants to act within them. My mercy works in all those hearts which open their doors to it. Both the sinner and the righteous person have need of My mercy. Conversion, as well as perseverance, is a grace of My mercy.” (1577)
2. “Let Souls who are striving for perfection particularly adore My mercy, because the abundance of graces which I grant them flows from My mercy.” (1578)
3. “I received a deeper understanding of divine mercy. Only that soul who wants it will be damned, for God condemns no one.” (1452)
4.* “I have opened my Heart as a living fountain of mercy. Let all souls draw life from it. Let them approach this sea of mercy with great trust. Sinners will attain justification, and the just will be confirmed in good. Whoever places his trust in My mercy will be filled with My divine peace at the hour of death.”** (1520)
5. “And I understood that the greatest attribute of God is love and mercy. It unites the creature with the Creator. This immense love and abyss of mercy are made known in the Incarnation of the Word and in the Redemption [of humanity], and it is here that I saw this as the greatest of all God’s attributes.” (181)
6. “Let the greatest sinners place their trust in My mercy. They have the right before others to trust in the abyss of My mercy. My daughter, write about My mercy towards tormented souls. Souls that make an appeal to My mercy delight Me. To such souls I grant even more graces than they ask. I cannot punish even the greatest sinner if he makes an appeal to My compassion, but on the contrary, I justify him in My unfathomable and inscrutable mercy. Write: before I come as a just judge, I first open wide the door of My mercy. He who refuses to pass through the door of My mercy must pass through the door of My justice…” (1146)
7. “The flames of mercy are burning me. I desire to pour them out upon human souls. Oh, what pain they cause Me when they do not want to accept them!.” (1074 – paragraph 2)
8. “Tell My daughter, that I am Love and Mercy itself. When a soul approaches Me with trust, I fill it with such an abundance of graces that it cannot contain them within itself, but radiates them to other souls.” (1074 – paragraph 4)
9.” There is no misery that could be a match for My mercy, neither will misery exhaust it, because as it is being granted-it increases. The soul that trusts in My mercy is most fortunate, because I myself take care of it.” (1273)
10. **“Today the Lord said to me, Daughter, when you go to confession, to this fountain of My mercy, the Blood and Water which came forth from My heart always flows down upon your soul and ennobles it. Every time you go to confession, immerse yourself entirely in My mercy, with great trust, so that I may pour the bounty of My grace upon your soul. When you approach the confessional, know this, that I Myself am waiting there for you. I am only hidden by the priest, but I myself act in your soul. Here the misery of the soul meets the God of mercy. Tell souls that from this fount of mercy souls draw graces solely with the vessel of trust. If their trust is great, there is no limit to My generosity. The torrents of grace inundate humble souls. The proud remain always in poverty and misery, because My grace turns way from them to humble souls.” *(1602)

 

[Crumpy]

I disagree with the strategy of the OP, putting God into categories to make him/her feel comfortable.

It’s hard to rationalize all the plagues in Egypt, especially the tenth plague, of the death of all the firstborn of the Egyptians except it being exactly what Scripture says it is.

Amongst other things, God had to show what justice meant. Whatever God does is perfect. The will of God is perfect.

To destroy the firstborn was a powerful sign that was used againt a stubborn Pharoah. All those signs were signs to convince Pharoah to let the Israelites leave Egypt.

You might rationalize, why didn’t God just kill Pharoah – you know, fall off a camel or something convenient. But, an accident would not teach the Israelites to abandon the idol worship of the Egyptian deities (not that they were real deities). The last plague was a deliberate, announced-in-advance plague to show God’s power.

There are a couple issues here, I guess. The first is, why don’t you just believe scripture, and try to figure out your questions later? Why not just “trust” God?

God kills us all, according to his plan, by the way. There is only one God.

 

[patrick457]

I have always been troubled by the different stories of genocide in the Old Testament. Entire populations of men, women and children being drowned or put to the sword are not the God I know and love. Could it be that God never ordered there atrocities and instead they are stories to warn us about being evil?

My answer is similar to Crumpy’s here. Why exactly do you feel the need to make the Scriptures less difficult and hard to swallow and make its different, often conflicting portraits of God conform to yours? No offense meant, but I just want to know.

 

[eo_chibears]

My answer is similar to Crumpy’s here. Why exactly do you feel the need to make the Scriptures less difficult and hard to swallow and make its different, often conflicting portraits of God conform to yours? No offense meant, but I just want to know.

I guess it’s just hard for me to rationalize genocide and the murder of entire populations of men, women and children.

 

[eo_chibears]

I disagree with the strategy of the OP, putting God into categories to make him/her feel comfortable.

It’s hard to rationalize all the plagues in Egypt, especially the tenth plague, of the death of all the firstborn of the Egyptians except it being exactly what Scripture says it is.

Amongst other things, God had to show what justice meant. Whatever God does is perfect. The will of God is perfect.

To destroy the firstborn was a powerful sign that was used againt a stubborn Pharoah. All those signs were signs to convince Pharoah to let the Israelites leave Egypt.

You might rationalize, why didn’t God just kill Pharoah – you know, fall off a camel or something convenient. But, an accident would not teach the Israelites to abandon the idol worship of the Egyptian deities (not that they were real deities). The last plague was a deliberate, announced-in-advance plague to show God’s power.

There are a couple issues here, I guess. The first is, why don’t you just believe scripture, and try to figure out your questions later? Why not just “trust” God?

God kills us all, according to his plan, by the way. There is only one God.

So does God kill unborn babies through abortion then too? Is that part of his plan? You just said he kills us all, so I guess that’s whay you are saying.

 

[TimothyH]

The people whom God ordered destroyed were homosexual gang rapists.

Before they went to bed, all the townsmen of Sodom, both young and old–all the people to the last man–closed in on the house. They called to Lot and said to him, "Where are the men who came to your house tonight? Bring them out to us that we may have sexual relations with them." (Genesis 19:4-5)

These were people who had sex with their mothers.

Ham, the father of Canaan, saw his father’s nakedness, and he told his two brothers outside. (Genesis 9:22)

“Seeing your father’s nakednes” means having sex with your father’s wife. These people whom God ordered destroyed had sex with anyone in their famililes and any animal they could get their hands on.

You shall not uncover the nakedness of your father, which is the nakedness of your mother; she is your mother, you shall not uncover her nakedness.
You shall not uncover the nakedness of your father’s wife; it is your father’s nakedness.
You shall not uncover the nakedness of your sister, the daughter of your father or the daughter of your mother, whether born at home or born abroad.
You shall not uncover the nakedness of your son’s daughter or of your daughter’s daughter, for their nakedness is your own nakedness.
You shall not uncover the nakedness of your father’s wife’s daughter, begotten by your father, since she is your sister.
You shall not uncover the nakedness of your father’s sister; she is your father’s near kinswoman.
You shall not uncover the nakedness of your mother’s sister, for she is your mother’s near kinswoman.
You shall not uncover the nakedness of your father’s brother, that is, you shall not approach his wife; she is your aunt.
You shall not uncover the nakedness of your daughter-in-law; she is your son’s wife, you shall not uncover her nakedness.
You shall not uncover the nakedness of your brother’s wife; she is your brother’s nakedness.
You shall not uncover the nakedness of a woman and of her daughter, and you shall not take her son’s daughter or her daughter’s daughter to uncover her nakedness; they are your near kinswomen; it is wickedness.
(Leviticus 18:7-17)

These were people who sacrificed their children to the god Molech. Molech was a hollow statue of a beast with outstretched arms which they would fill with burning coals uuntil it glowed red hot. They would place infants in the arm of the statue and sear their flesh, burning them alive.

"Say to the people of Israel, Any man of the people of Israel, or of the strangers that sojourn in Israel, who gives any of his children to Molech shall be put to death; the people of the land shall stone him with stones. (Leviticus 20:2)



They were cannibals, incestuous tortureres, homosexual pedophiles who sold their young sons to be boy prostitutes in the temples of pagan Gods. They had sex with animals and drank human blood.

Those who dwelt of old in thy holy land thou didst hate for their detestable practices, their works of sorcery and unholy rites, their merciless slaughter of children, and their sacrificial feasting on human flesh and blood. These initiates from the midst of a heathen cult, these parents who murder helpless lives, (Wisdom 12:3-6)

The people who God ordered killed were all this, plus they were pagans who has seen what God had done for Israel - parting the Red Sea, stopping the waters of the Jordan River during flood season, destroying the walls of Jericho with a trumpet blast - and they did not convert. The entire earth was like this.

Now the earth was corrupt in God’s sight, and the earth was filled with violence. And God saw the earth, and behold, it was corrupt; for all flesh had corrupted their way upon the earth. And God said to Noah, "I have determined to make an end of all flesh; for the earth is filled with violence through them; behold, I will destroy them with the earth. (Genesis 6:11-13)

After the flood, God promised to Noah that he would never again destroy all life.

***I establish my covenant with you, that never again shall all flesh be cut off *by the waters of a flood, and never again shall there be a flood to destroy the earth." And God said, "This is the sign of the covenant which I make between me and you and every living creature that is with you, for all future generations: I set my bow in the cloud, and it shall be a sign of the covenant between me and the earth. (Genesis 9:11-13)

God “Hung up his bow” in the clouds. A bow is a weapon to be used with arrows. God hung up his bow, his weapon, for good, never to use it again, but he did not say that man would not use weapons, and he did command his people who were set apart - Israel - to destroy the wicked in the world.

The people whom God ordered destroyed weren’t just sitting around with their iPads at Starbucks when God decided that they should die. These were bad, bad people, and it is a lesson for us.

-Tim-

 

[MJDorry]

I disagree that it was ordered by God. Natural disasters have happened throughout the earth’s history and have taken countless lives in the process. I feel its completely believable that a naturally occuring flood killed many people and it was attributed to God’s wrath at that time. I don’t want to go against what the Church teaches though, I just wasn’t completely sure if there is an official stance on topics such as this. God Bless you.

I wouldn’t even go as far as to say that certain of these events were attributed to God, but were rather later told as poetic God myths.