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zeek
Guest
Isn’t the sole purpose for sex to procreate?
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Faithful_2_Rome
Guest
If the guy had it done before he knew it was against church teaching…he simply confesses, but then MUST go and get the procedure REVERSED…if he went thru with it once for selfish reasons, aint no reason to not go thru the reversal. Until he has the reversal, he should abstain from sex…hes basically a walking contraceptive until then. Once the reversal is done, making whoopie can resume. If the reversal didnt work, the man remains free and clear to CONTINUE to have sex, even if he cant impregnate…he did the right thing and now it aint his fault if the reversal didnt take. Its so logical, I cant see any other reasoning coming into play…confession aint enough…the REVERSAL must be done or at least attempted. The confession should INCLUDE telling the priest that he intends to GET a reversal ASAP. This one is a no brainer 
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Maria-Pia
Guest
I know someone who had a vasectomy and went on to have two children with his wife. God can do anything if He wants to.
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zeek
Guest
Faithful 2 Rome:
This may be a hard teaching, but if the “reversal” doesn’t work, he technically should not be able to have sexual relations at all. It seems this is what Jesus would want.If the guy had it done before he knew it was against church teaching…he simply confesses, but then MUST go and get the procedure REVERSED…if he went thru with it once for selfish reasons, aint no reason to not go thru the reversal. Until he has the reversal, he should abstain from sex…hes basically a walking contraceptive until then. Once the reversal is done, making whoopie can resume. If the reversal didnt work, the man remains free and clear to CONTINUE to have sex, even if he cant impregnate…he did the right thing and now it aint his fault if the reversal didnt take. Its so logical, I cant see any other reasoning coming into play…confession aint enough…the REVERSAL must be done or at least attempted. The confession should INCLUDE telling the priest that he intends to GET a reversal ASAP. This one is a no brainer
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Emmaus
Guest
From The Catechism
"2398 Fecundity is a good, a gift and an end of marriage. By giving life, spouses participate in God’s fatherhood.
2399 **The regulation of births represents one of the aspects of responsible fatherhood and motherhood. Legitimate intentions on the part of the spouses do not justify recourse to morally unacceptable means (for example, direct sterilization or contraception). **
scborromeo.org/ccc/p3s2c2a6.htm#2399
III. THE LOVE OF HUSBAND AND WIFE
2360 Sexuality is ordered to the conjugal love of man and woman. In marriage the physical intimacy of the spouses becomes a sign and pledge of spiritual communion. Marriage bonds between baptized persons are sanctified by the sacrament.
2361 "Sexuality, by means of which man and woman give themselves to one another through the acts which are proper and exclusive to spouses, is not something simply biological, but concerns the innermost being of the human person as such. It is realized in a truly human way only if it is an integral part of the love by which a man and woman commit themselves totally to one another until death."143
Tobias got out of bed and said to Sarah, “Sister, get up, and let us pray and implore our Lord that he grant us mercy and safety.” So she got up, and they began to pray and implore that they might be kept safe. Tobias began by saying, “Blessed are you, O God of our fathers. . . . You made Adam, and for him you made his wife Eve as a helper and support. From the two of them the race of mankind has sprung. You said, ‘It is not good that the man should be alone; let us make a helper for him like himself.’ I now am taking this kinswoman of mine, not because of lust, but with sincerity. Grant that she and I may find mercy and that we may grow old together.” And they both said, “Amen, Amen.” Then they went to sleep for the night.144
"2398 Fecundity is a good, a gift and an end of marriage. By giving life, spouses participate in God’s fatherhood.
2399 **The regulation of births represents one of the aspects of responsible fatherhood and motherhood. Legitimate intentions on the part of the spouses do not justify recourse to morally unacceptable means (for example, direct sterilization or contraception). **
scborromeo.org/ccc/p3s2c2a6.htm#2399
III. THE LOVE OF HUSBAND AND WIFE
2360 Sexuality is ordered to the conjugal love of man and woman. In marriage the physical intimacy of the spouses becomes a sign and pledge of spiritual communion. Marriage bonds between baptized persons are sanctified by the sacrament.
2361 "Sexuality, by means of which man and woman give themselves to one another through the acts which are proper and exclusive to spouses, is not something simply biological, but concerns the innermost being of the human person as such. It is realized in a truly human way only if it is an integral part of the love by which a man and woman commit themselves totally to one another until death."143
Tobias got out of bed and said to Sarah, “Sister, get up, and let us pray and implore our Lord that he grant us mercy and safety.” So she got up, and they began to pray and implore that they might be kept safe. Tobias began by saying, “Blessed are you, O God of our fathers. . . . You made Adam, and for him you made his wife Eve as a helper and support. From the two of them the race of mankind has sprung. You said, ‘It is not good that the man should be alone; let us make a helper for him like himself.’ I now am taking this kinswoman of mine, not because of lust, but with sincerity. Grant that she and I may find mercy and that we may grow old together.” And they both said, “Amen, Amen.” Then they went to sleep for the night.144
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Emmaus
Guest
From the Catechism too
2362 "The acts in marriage by which the intimate and chaste union of the spouses takes place are noble and honorable; the truly human performance of these acts fosters the self-giving they signify and enriches the spouses in joy and gratitude."145 **Sexuality is a source of joy and pleasure: **
**The Creator himself . . . established that in the [generative] function, spouses should experience pleasure and enjoyment of body and spirit. Therefore, the spouses do nothing evil in seeking this pleasure and enjoyment. They accept what the Creator has intended for them. ** At the same time, spouses should know how to keep themselves within the limits of just moderation.146
2363 The spouses’ union achieves the twofold end of marriage: the good of the spouses themselves and the transmission of life. These two meanings or values of marriage cannot be separated without altering the couple’s spiritual life and compromising the goods of marriage and the future of the family.
scborromeo.org/ccc/p3s2c2a6.htm#2399
2362 "The acts in marriage by which the intimate and chaste union of the spouses takes place are noble and honorable; the truly human performance of these acts fosters the self-giving they signify and enriches the spouses in joy and gratitude."145 **Sexuality is a source of joy and pleasure: **
**The Creator himself . . . established that in the [generative] function, spouses should experience pleasure and enjoyment of body and spirit. Therefore, the spouses do nothing evil in seeking this pleasure and enjoyment. They accept what the Creator has intended for them. ** At the same time, spouses should know how to keep themselves within the limits of just moderation.146
2363 The spouses’ union achieves the twofold end of marriage: the good of the spouses themselves and the transmission of life. These two meanings or values of marriage cannot be separated without altering the couple’s spiritual life and compromising the goods of marriage and the future of the family.
scborromeo.org/ccc/p3s2c2a6.htm#2399
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Emmaus
Guest
a little more from the Catechism:
"The conjugal love of man and woman thus stands under the twofold obligation of fidelity and fecundity.
2366 Fecundity is a gift, an end of marriage, for conjugal love naturally tends to be fruitful. A child does not come from outside as something added on to the mutual love of the spouses, but springs from the very heart of that mutual giving, as its fruit and fulfillment. So the Church, which is "on the side of life,"151 teaches that "it is necessary that each and every marriage act remain ordered per se to the procreation of human life."152 "This particular doctrine, expounded on numerous occasions by the Magisterium, is based on the inseparable connection, established by God, which man on his own initiative may not break, between the unitive significance and the procreative significance which are both inherent to the marriage act."153
2367 Called to give life, spouses share in the creative power and fatherhood of God.154 "Married couples should regard it as their proper mission to transmit human life and to educate their children; they should realize that they are thereby cooperating with the love of God the Creator and are, in a certain sense, its interpreters. They will fulfill this duty with a sense of human and Christian responsibility."155
"2368 A particular aspect of this responsibility concerns the regulation of procreation. For just reasons, spouses may wish to space the births of their children. It is their duty to make certain that their desire is not motivated by selfishness but is in conformity with the generosity appropriate to responsible parenthood. Moreover, they should conform their behavior to the objective criteria of morality:
When it is a question of harmonizing married love with the responsible transmission of life, the morality of the behavior does not depend on sincere intention and evaluation of motives alone; but it must be determined by objective criteria, criteria drawn from the nature of the person and his acts criteria that respect the total meaning of mutual self-giving and human procreation in the context of true love; this is possible only if the virtue of married chastity is practiced with sincerity of heart.156
2369 **“By safeguarding both these essential aspects, the unitive and the procreative, the conjugal act preserves in its fullness the sense of true mutual love and its orientation toward man’s exalted vocation to parenthood.”**157
2370** Periodic continence, that is, the methods of birth regulation based on self-observation and the use of infertile periods, is in conformity with the objective criteria of morality.158 These methods respect the bodies of the spouses, encourage tenderness between them, and favor the education of an authentic freedom. In contrast, “every action which, whether in anticipation of the conjugal act, or in its accomplishment, or in the development of its natural consequences, proposes, whether as an end or as a means, to render procreation impossible” is intrinsically evil:**159
Thus the innate language that expresses the total reciprocal self-giving of husband and wife is overlaid, through contraception, by an objectively contradictory language, namely, that of not giving oneself totally to the other. This leads not only to a positive refusal to be open to life but also to a falsification of the inner truth of conjugal love, which is called upon to give itself in personal totality. . . . The difference, both anthropological and moral, between contraception and recourse to the rhythm of the cycle . . . involves in the final analysis two irreconcilable concepts of the human person and of human sexuality.160 "
scborromeo.org/ccc/p3s2c2a6.htm#2399
"The conjugal love of man and woman thus stands under the twofold obligation of fidelity and fecundity.
2366 Fecundity is a gift, an end of marriage, for conjugal love naturally tends to be fruitful. A child does not come from outside as something added on to the mutual love of the spouses, but springs from the very heart of that mutual giving, as its fruit and fulfillment. So the Church, which is "on the side of life,"151 teaches that "it is necessary that each and every marriage act remain ordered per se to the procreation of human life."152 "This particular doctrine, expounded on numerous occasions by the Magisterium, is based on the inseparable connection, established by God, which man on his own initiative may not break, between the unitive significance and the procreative significance which are both inherent to the marriage act."153
2367 Called to give life, spouses share in the creative power and fatherhood of God.154 "Married couples should regard it as their proper mission to transmit human life and to educate their children; they should realize that they are thereby cooperating with the love of God the Creator and are, in a certain sense, its interpreters. They will fulfill this duty with a sense of human and Christian responsibility."155
"2368 A particular aspect of this responsibility concerns the regulation of procreation. For just reasons, spouses may wish to space the births of their children. It is their duty to make certain that their desire is not motivated by selfishness but is in conformity with the generosity appropriate to responsible parenthood. Moreover, they should conform their behavior to the objective criteria of morality:
When it is a question of harmonizing married love with the responsible transmission of life, the morality of the behavior does not depend on sincere intention and evaluation of motives alone; but it must be determined by objective criteria, criteria drawn from the nature of the person and his acts criteria that respect the total meaning of mutual self-giving and human procreation in the context of true love; this is possible only if the virtue of married chastity is practiced with sincerity of heart.156
2369 **“By safeguarding both these essential aspects, the unitive and the procreative, the conjugal act preserves in its fullness the sense of true mutual love and its orientation toward man’s exalted vocation to parenthood.”**157
2370** Periodic continence, that is, the methods of birth regulation based on self-observation and the use of infertile periods, is in conformity with the objective criteria of morality.158 These methods respect the bodies of the spouses, encourage tenderness between them, and favor the education of an authentic freedom. In contrast, “every action which, whether in anticipation of the conjugal act, or in its accomplishment, or in the development of its natural consequences, proposes, whether as an end or as a means, to render procreation impossible” is intrinsically evil:**159
Thus the innate language that expresses the total reciprocal self-giving of husband and wife is overlaid, through contraception, by an objectively contradictory language, namely, that of not giving oneself totally to the other. This leads not only to a positive refusal to be open to life but also to a falsification of the inner truth of conjugal love, which is called upon to give itself in personal totality. . . . The difference, both anthropological and moral, between contraception and recourse to the rhythm of the cycle . . . involves in the final analysis two irreconcilable concepts of the human person and of human sexuality.160 "
scborromeo.org/ccc/p3s2c2a6.htm#2399
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zeek
Guest
So if an infertile male has sex with a woman knowing that procreation is impossible, isn’t that immoral?
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Emmaus
Guest
Only if he has made himself intentionally infertile (sterile).
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zeek
Guest
Thank you Emmaus, in the case of a vasectomy. It would seem immoral for a man intentionally sterile to continue in sexual relations knowing that procreation is rendered impossible, as stated most profoundly in the last three lines of the bold text taken from the Catechism of the Catholic Church.
151 teaches that "it is necessary that each and every marriage act remain ordered per se to the procreation of human life."152 "This particular doctrine, expounded on numerous occasions by the Magisterium, is based on the inseparable connection, established by God, which man on his own initiative may not break, between the unitive significance and the procreative significance which are both inherent to the marriage act."153
2370** Periodic continence, that is, the methods of birth regulation based on self-observation and the use of infertile periods, is in conformity with the objective criteria of morality.158 These methods respect the bodies of the spouses, encourage tenderness between them, and favor the education of an authentic freedom. In contrast, “every action which, whether in anticipation of the conjugal act, or in its accomplishment, or in the development of its natural consequences, proposes, whether as an end or as a means, to render procreation impossible” is intrinsically evil:**159
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Emmaus
Guest
Zeek,
I would disagree with you here. If the person has repented and confessed and attempted a reversal of the vasectomy, I believe any sexual relations with his wife would be licit, even if the reversal was unsuccesful. In fact it would be an injsutice to his wife if she desired hers conjugal rights and he denied them to her. God is merciful, not vindictive. His punishment may be having to live in his infertile state after having repented of that original decision.
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Faithful_2_Rome
Guest
I disagree with Zeek as well.
Are there not men who have vascetomies but still get their wives pregnant? So who is to say or JUDGE that once a man repents, gets the reversal, but doesnt get his wife pregnant asap…or for YEARS…that the reversal didnt take? If a medical professional states that for all intents and purposes the reversal was a success, then the man on his part is doing EVERYTHING in his power to be open for the possibility of the transmission for children…and that is all the Church asks for…PERIOD. He repented in confession, he went for the reversal and the rest is in Gods hands…he has a right to have sex with his wife at this point.
I sure hope people dont think that once a couple is married and its found out that either the wife or man cant reproduce, they are now restricted from sex, cause all they can do is ENJOY the pleasure without worrying about having kids?
What about the woman who has problems with her insides and gets a hysterectomy? (I aint talking about having tubes tied) Is she now to ABSTAIN from sex cause she can never get pregnant…and all sex would just be for good old horny fun? BAH!
Again, it seems many Catholics want to impose “fundie” sensibilities over and above what the CCC states…this is wrong. Now if a man and woman, want to then make a vow of celibacy…thats their business…but their right to then think or impose that view on others in their situation is wrong…personaly, I would never make such a vow while in marriage…get married and NOT have sex??? Paul basically says TO get married if we BURN! sex is great bonding and a tension releaser for the couple…imagine how much more fighting and bickering in a marriage there would be without that bond?..or going somehwere else for the sex if one spouse decides they are called to some form of abstinance…better get an annullment if that happens if the other spouse aint up for that…cause infidelity is right around the corner.
Are there not men who have vascetomies but still get their wives pregnant? So who is to say or JUDGE that once a man repents, gets the reversal, but doesnt get his wife pregnant asap…or for YEARS…that the reversal didnt take? If a medical professional states that for all intents and purposes the reversal was a success, then the man on his part is doing EVERYTHING in his power to be open for the possibility of the transmission for children…and that is all the Church asks for…PERIOD. He repented in confession, he went for the reversal and the rest is in Gods hands…he has a right to have sex with his wife at this point.
I sure hope people dont think that once a couple is married and its found out that either the wife or man cant reproduce, they are now restricted from sex, cause all they can do is ENJOY the pleasure without worrying about having kids?
What about the woman who has problems with her insides and gets a hysterectomy? (I aint talking about having tubes tied) Is she now to ABSTAIN from sex cause she can never get pregnant…and all sex would just be for good old horny fun? BAH!
Again, it seems many Catholics want to impose “fundie” sensibilities over and above what the CCC states…this is wrong. Now if a man and woman, want to then make a vow of celibacy…thats their business…but their right to then think or impose that view on others in their situation is wrong…personaly, I would never make such a vow while in marriage…get married and NOT have sex??? Paul basically says TO get married if we BURN! sex is great bonding and a tension releaser for the couple…imagine how much more fighting and bickering in a marriage there would be without that bond?..or going somehwere else for the sex if one spouse decides they are called to some form of abstinance…better get an annullment if that happens if the other spouse aint up for that…cause infidelity is right around the corner.
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zeek
Guest
Faithful 2 Rome:
Peace in Christ
Thanks for your responses and for listening, God bless you all.
Peace in Christ
M
metal1633
Guest
A reversal is NOT REQUIRED. The man can Confess, do Penance and that is all that is required of him. He can continue normal sexual relations with his wife. Why is this hard to understand? WHY would you think MORE is required of him when Satisfaction for his sin has been given? There is no sin in a sterile couple having sex. Confession and Penance brings FORGIVENESS. Demanding that more is required than that shows a lack of faith in the Lords forgivenenss and a very legalistic attitude.
THERE IS NO SIN IN A STERILE COUPLE HAVING SEX.
THERE IS NO SIN IN A STERILE COUPLE HAVING SEX.
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zeek
Guest
Everything is in God’s hands, because He is indeed infinitely merciful to ALL his people.
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petra
Guest
No, it is not. It is also to create spiritual and emotional bonding within the the sacrament of marriage. There are many examples in which the spiritual takes a physical form: the incarnation of Christ, the Real Presence of the Eucharist, the way we worship, etc. It is a false dichotomy to separate the physical act of marriage from its spiritual significance.
Saint Augustine had the view that you present, in fact he taught that even during procreation, it was a sin to experience any enjoyment. He was wrong on that, and the Church does not hold to his view.
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petra
Guest
Bold text indicates the purpose of creating the bonding I describe in my previous post.
It is contraception that is condemned here, not the act of marriage. Since sterilzation cannot be performed over and over (like the use of other contraceptives can be), this sin cannot be committed more than once. If a previous action of sterilization is forgiven, the sin does not continue with subsequent relations with the spouse.
However, I would say that true regret and deep sorrow would be required for absolution.
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joshua1
Guest
In following this thread, it seems that if you know you can not concieve, it is sinful to have sex, because , and i wont quote them all, it is for procreation. Well, if you want to get technical, if you refrain from having sex when fertile and have sex like banshees when you “KNOW” you are infertile is by definition contraception whether you like it or not. If you KNOW you are infertile and have sex only then anyways, you are practicing contraception. Now this may step on some toes, but this is by definitions I have been reading in these posts. Now dont get me wrong, I support the churches teaching on the matter. I believe faithfully every letter of the catechism start to finish. I have heard it said the end doesnt justify the means, but it can also be said, that the MEANS does not justify the END. Whether you practive NFP or vasectomy for the prevention of a pregnancy, they are both contraception. Birth control is birth control no matter whether it is natural or artificial.
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Trinitatem
Guest
With God, all things are possible. Even with menopause, even past the age of childbearing years, conception is possible. Think of Elizabeth, who conceived John the Baptist, well past her childbearing years.
For those who have gotten sterilized, if they are aware of the sin, then they can choose to go to confession, and if possible, make an attempt to have a reversal.
For those who have repented, and cannot get a reversal, due to health reasons, or other, then offer it to God, ask for His will and go forth. When you get into the issues of whether you are aware you can conceive or not is when you have problems. Personally, I think we think too much. If we simply trust in God and ask for forgiveness when we are aware of our sins, then we need to trust Him implicitly, like children, and know He will guide us. Why do we worry when we know He’ll give us the answers when just asked?
If truly we follow the Father in His will, then the catechism is just a guide to what the Holy Spirit already guides us to know, to do.
Sterilization goes against God’s natural law. Many Catholics are unaware of this offense. And in that, then, those who know more are more responsible. If they are aware, then it is up to them to repent, and follow the path they are led. For none of us can judge them, for in our eyes are logs.
For those who have gotten sterilized, if they are aware of the sin, then they can choose to go to confession, and if possible, make an attempt to have a reversal.
For those who have repented, and cannot get a reversal, due to health reasons, or other, then offer it to God, ask for His will and go forth. When you get into the issues of whether you are aware you can conceive or not is when you have problems. Personally, I think we think too much. If we simply trust in God and ask for forgiveness when we are aware of our sins, then we need to trust Him implicitly, like children, and know He will guide us. Why do we worry when we know He’ll give us the answers when just asked?
If truly we follow the Father in His will, then the catechism is just a guide to what the Holy Spirit already guides us to know, to do.
Sterilization goes against God’s natural law. Many Catholics are unaware of this offense. And in that, then, those who know more are more responsible. If they are aware, then it is up to them to repent, and follow the path they are led. For none of us can judge them, for in our eyes are logs.
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