Is this all the CC has?

[teancum79]

It is pretty basic.

But then you would have to accept Jesus as God (LDS don’t).

And because He is God, why would anyone want to belong to another faith community, cult, prayer group etc… other than the only one founded by God Himself?

The question should be turned around. And I ask you… is Joseph Smith all you’ve got?

.

Hardly and yes I agree why would anyone want to be part of any religious group that is not the one God approves of?

JS is not all we have The Bible BoM D&C PoGP current prophets, the prophets between JS and pres Monson. All of which are nice, but most importantly the guidance from the Holy Ghost which guides us to Christ and His Father.

 

[Stephen168]

I don’t see the consistency of doctrine between the current church and the one set up by Christ. That what is now the CC and what the CC was in say 350 AD or so I think is close enough to call the same.
What I see is a claim that a history kept by people who where well served by keeping a story looking the same way. I am well awake. I study my Bible and like Luther and many other wise men what I see now in the CC as nice as many things are does not jive with what I read in the Bible.
I don’t have “anti-catholic” beliefs.
As to a date I don’t know I’ve thrown out the guess of 150 AD, but thats a guess. The Apostles died. The beliefs and practices of the CC and not the same as the Church that Paul et el. wrote to and taught.

The CC has played a very important role in the history of the world in general and Europe in particular. Much of the current western world is how it is beacuse of and in some cases in spite of the CC. I simply don’t think the CC and the Church set up in 30ish AD are the same. I find too many differences between what the church now believes and what I find in the Bible.

Your question has been answered many times, including in this thread. If you tell us where you think the Catholic version of history breaks down, then we can have a discussion. Otherwise it’s just you changing from new angle to new angle as each is refuted.

The Mormon non-answer

I think I’ve been quite clear on when I see some major changes.

The question is asked again

well you’re the only one. do us all a favor and list a few of the most important in your mind.

Will we ever see an answer?

 

[kalt]

In other words whoever last the longest wins?

No. The Church was just as valid on its first day.

People ask questions, so people answer them. If someone asks about the priesthood, they get answers that include info on the early church, naturally.

Is there a question that you want answered?

 

[teancum79]

The Mormon non-answer

The question is asked again

Will we ever see an answer?

Okay for the record.

The Trinity baptism of infants, not doing baptisms for the dead, denying continuing revelation through prophets, making way to big a deal out of a chunk of wood and all round about ways of praying are factors in the CC that the Bible does not support.

The apostles fought to stop the false ideas from entering the church but where killed. The church was without the needed leadership and authority and fell apart. People tried to fix things but lacking the authority they could not.

I guess the lost and not getting back was 150ad give or take.

This should no doubt start a long list of people telling me that history (kept by the CC) tells me I’m wrong that the Bible as read by the CC also says I’m wrong. After a few of those we will start in on the name calling, lies about and insults of my faiths leaders etc.

 

[MrS]

Hardly and yes I agree why would anyone want to be part of any religious group that is not the one God approves of?

JS is not all we have The Bible BoM D&C PoGP current prophets, the prophets between JS and pres Monson. All of which are nice, but most importantly the guidance from the Holy Ghost which guides us to Christ and His Father.

not the one God approves of? Not my question. I asked who founded your church… and we know it is Joseph Smith, based on unsubstantiated claims of gold plates etc. In other words, we only have his word for it, not God’s. The CC on the other hand is founded by God Himself, and He affirms it - first by Tradition (oral composite of the Faith), and eventually by the transcribed form of most of that Tradition.

You do not have the guidance of the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit is God, and He would not lead anyone into error. Any guidance you are graced with will lead you to the Truth, and thus out of LDS and into the only one Church founded by Jesus Christ, the Son of God.

we have The Bible BoM D&C PoGP current prophets, the prophets between JS and pres Monson You do not “have” the Bible. That is a Catholic Book which LDS and others abuse. Your current prophets will undoubtedly change the core teaching of prior “current” prophets. The CC, on the other hand has not changed one Doctrine ever. Disciplines are subject to change. But if you can show one Doctrine of the Faith that has changed in 2000 years (actually since the foundation of the world), I will leave the Catholic Church.

Will you offer the same promise for LDS?

.

 

[MrS]

Okay for the record.

The Trinity baptism of infants, not doing baptisms for the dead, denying continuing revelation through prophets, making way to big a deal out of a chunk of wood and all round about ways of praying are factors in the CC that the Bible does not support.

The apostles fought to stop the false ideas from entering the church but where killed. The church was without the needed leadership and authority and fell apart. People tried to fix things but lacking the authority they could not.

I guess the lost and not getting back was 150ad give or take.

This should no doubt start a long list of people telling me that history (kept by the CC) tells me I’m wrong that the Bible as read by the CC also says I’m wrong. After a few of those we will start in on the name calling, lies about and insults of my faiths leaders etc.

Trinity baptism of infants… “Go forth and teach all nations, baptising them in the Name of the Father,. the Son, and the Holy Spirit.” (no exclusion for infants, who, in the Old Covenant, received entry into the family of God by circumcision as soon as possible - usually the 8th day of their lives.)

baptisms for the dead ???

chunk of wood having no concept of this instrument of torture which held the Body of the Lord is revealing. You probably have not realized the story of Abraham and Isaac as the typeology of the Crucifixion.

round about ways of praying As St Paul says “…even your moanings are prayers…”

.

 

[teancum79]

not the one God approves of? Not my question. I asked who founded your church… and we know it is Joseph Smith, based on unsubstantiated claims of gold plates etc. In other words, we only have his word for it, not God’s. The CC on the other hand is founded by God Himself, and He affirms it - first by Tradition (oral composite of the Faith), and eventually by the transcribed form of most of that Tradition.

You do not have the guidance of the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit is God, and He would not lead anyone into error. Any guidance you are graced with will lead you to the Truth, and thus out of LDS and into the only one Church founded by Jesus Christ, the Son of God.

we have The Bible BoM D&C PoGP current prophets, the prophets between JS and pres Monson You do not “have” the Bible. That is a Catholic Book which LDS and others abuse. Your current prophets will undoubtedly change the core teaching of prior “current” prophets. The CC, on the other hand has not changed one Doctrine ever. Disciplines are subject to change. But if you can show one Doctrine of the Faith that has changed in 2000 years (actually since the foundation of the world), I will leave the Catholic Church.

Will you offer the same promise for LDS?

.

That’s a dumb question. Any changes that have been made can be said to:

A not be a change in the doctrine
B Have been misunderstood in the first place
or C are misunderstood now.

Neither of us can “prove” a change in doctrine in either church so while you “promise” may look all brave and laying it on the line etc. it really is pointless.

I’l not bother to respond to the other parts of your posts and I’m sure we are quite well aware of how those responses will go.

 

[Eden]

That’s a dumb question. Any changes that have been made can be said to:

A not be a change in the doctrine
B Have been misunderstood in the first place
or C are misunderstood now.

Neither of us can “prove” a change in doctrine in either church so while you “promise” may look all brave and laying it on the line etc. it really is pointless.

I’l not bother to respond to the other parts of your posts and I’m sure we are quite well aware of how those responses will go.

What is your response to Mr.S’s “Go forth and teach all nations, baptising them in the Name of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit.”? This was Christ’s Great Commission and, yet, you deny the Trinitarian formula is consistent with the early Church. How can you argue with a very clear passage of Scripture?

 

[majick275]

Okay for the record.

The Trinity baptism of infants, not doing baptisms for the dead, denying continuing revelation through prophets, making way to big a deal out of a chunk of wood and all round about ways of praying are factors in the CC that the Bible does not support.

The apostles fought to stop the false ideas from entering the church but where killed. The church was without the needed leadership and authority and fell apart. People tried to fix things but lacking the authority they could not.

I guess the lost and not getting back was 150ad give or take.

This should no doubt start a long list of people telling me that history (kept by the CC) tells me I’m wrong that the Bible as read by the CC also says I’m wrong. After a few of those we will start in on the name calling, lies about and insults of my faiths leaders etc.

first the trinity…as i said earlier even the BoM starts with the “witnesses” stating that father son and holy spirit is one God. the bible (and the BoM) state consistently that there is only one god. the bible makes very plain that Father son and holy spirit are God. we know from early christian writings that what is now taught in the CCC is the same as was taught in the first century which is based on the NT writings. (not assembled into a “bible” until the fourth century) do you have any evidence showing that catholic teaching on the trinity is incorrect?

baptism for the dead is never shown in the bible to be apart of the christian church nor does it exist in the BoM which alleges to contain the “fullness” of the gospel. so what evidence do you provide that the early christian church practiced this?

continuing revelation through prophets? i offer hebrews chapter 1 as evidence that this is no longer required. show me anywhere in the NT where this was required? continuing revelation to attest to the truth of christ perfect revelation or to help understand it? yes. new revelation to replace, contradict or correct the gospel of jesus christ? no. the notion that christ ministry was a failure or incomplete? no!!!

making way too big a deal out of a “chunk of wood”? 1 Corinthians 1 that should show that this mormon attitude about the cross is not only wrong but dangerous.

round about ways of praying? could you be more specific? i will say that we pray the our father just as jesus taught which mormons don’t and we pray directly to jesus as the BoM teaches but mormons don’t.

we have plenty of records showing that apostles called bishops to follow them. we have the writings of these early christians showing a consistency of teaching all along. we know what heresies they fought against and see them all over the mormon church.

we KNOW what the church was doing in 150 we can see for ourselves. what evidence to the contrary do you present? if the bible contradicted this then why did the catholic church assemble it as is in the fourth century given you premise that it went apostate in the second?

there is no need to lie about any LDS leaders. their own words condemn them enough. as to name calling and insults… it’s the truth. what they did was wrong.

 

[RebeccaJ]

there is no need to lie about any LDS leaders. their own words condemn them enough. as to name calling and insults… it’s the truth. what they did was wrong.

When Catholics adopt and teach doctrines that are wrong, we don’t call them rumors, we call them heresies. I guess Mormons are claiming their own prophets, starting with JS, were heretics of their own faith. Maybe it is why Mormons are so quick to adopt early heresies, especially of the gnostic variety, they think they are rumors of something prophetic.

 

[MarcoPolo]

Trinity baptism of infants… “Go forth and teach all nations, baptising them in the Name of the Father,. the Son, and the Holy Spirit.”

That was easy.

May I also add:
And concerning baptism, baptize this way: After reviewing all of this teaching,* baptize in the Name of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit***, in living (running) water…pour water three times upon the head in the Name of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit. But before the baptism, let the overseer fast, and also the one being baptized, and all others who are able - Didache, chapter 7, A.D. 70.There’s the trinitarian formula and permission for infants all before 150 AD. And let’s not forget Luke 18:15-16.

 

[MarcoPolo]

That’s a dumb question.

Please refrain from violating forum rules with inappropriate insults. Only make your points with charity and reason.

 

[FCEGM]

Okay for the record.

The Trinity baptism of infants, not doing baptisms for the dead, denying continuing revelation through prophets, making way to big a deal out of a chunk of wood and all round about ways of praying are factors in the CC that the Bible does not support.

The apostles fought to stop the false ideas from entering the church but where killed. The church was without the needed leadership and authority and fell apart. People tried to fix things but lacking the authority they could not.

I guess the lost and not getting back was 150ad give or take.

This should no doubt start a long list of people telling me that history (kept by the CC) tells me I’m wrong that the Bible as read by the CC also says I’m wrong. After a few of those we will start in on the name calling, lies about and insults of my faiths leaders etc.

and. . .

That’s a dumb question. Any changes that have been made can be said to:

A not be a change in the doctrine
B Have been misunderstood in the first place
or C are misunderstood now.

Neither of us can “prove” a change in doctrine in either church so while you “promise” may look all brave and laying it on the line etc. it really is pointless.

I’l not bother to respond to the other parts of your posts and I’m sure we are quite well aware of how those responses will go.

The light dawns! What you claim as “changes” that the Catholic Church has gone through are not changes at all, but simply differences in what Catholicism teaches and practices vs. LDS teaching and practice. All you can point to are differences, but not changes within Catholicism of official doctrine and practice.

Your perception, then, is through the LDS lens of the apostasy of the Church - which didn’t happen.

 

[wisdomseeker]

Hardly and yes I agree why would anyone want to be part of any religious group that is not the one God approves of?

JS is not all we have The Bible BoM D&C PoGP current prophets, the prophets between JS and pres Monson. All of which are nice, but most importantly the guidance from the Holy Ghost which guides us to Christ and His Father.

Please give us a list of prophets from the time Jesus went up to Heaven and left these prophets in charge of His Church here on earth.

 

[teancum79]

What is your response to Mr.S’s “Go forth and teach all nations, baptising them in the Name of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit.”? This was Christ’s Great Commission and, yet, you deny the Trinitarian formula is consistent with the early Church. How can you argue with a very clear passage of Scripture?

Because I can read the Bible not just a few odd passages and assume the rest of it that pertains to the nature of God does not mean what it says.

 

[teancum79]

Please give us a list of prophets from the time Jesus went up to Heaven and left these prophets in charge of His Church here on earth.

what? a list of the prophets between JS and President Monson? or are you assuming that there where prophets from the time of Peter until JS?

 

[swariffin]

I hear very often evidence this and fact that. Is that really all the CC has going for it. That’s all I see being talked about here is a selected version of history.

If you want to know all about Catholicism, we have over millions of materials there in Vatican Library, about the faith and history. This Forum can’t tell you all. If you are sure that what was presented here was a selected version of history, why don’t you learn the whole history from the objective sources, off course. Later, you can compare the history of the RCC vs the history of mormonism. Make sure you are not taking selected history of mormonism too.

 

[teancum79]

If you want to know all about Catholicism, we have over millions of materials there in Vatican Library, about the faith and history. This Forum can’t tell you all. If you are sure that what was presented here was a selected version of history, why don’t you learn the whole history from the objective sources, off course. Later, you can compare the history of the RCC vs the history of mormonism. Make sure you are not taking selected history of mormonism too.

what I have seen thus far is that the CC history and the objective (or as close as reasonable history books/teachers who could not care less about religion) history have a lot of variance.

 

[ibkc]

what I have seen thus far is that the CC history and the objective (or as close as reasonable history books/teachers who could not care less about religion) history have a lot of variance.

Examples?

 

[teancum79]

Examples?

Why priest don’t marry:
CC version to make sure they are focused on their duties living a higher life.

World History guys with sons pass on their property. If priest don’t marry the church keeps the gold.

Crusades: I’ll admit I’ve not checked the official CC position, but I doubt that military conquest and fund raising to out do the last Pope is on the list.

Constantine (sp) CC First empire to become a Christian.

History the guy was a pagan and was probably “baptized” on his death bed while unconscious.

I’ll wager there is much more, but those are the ones I remember off the top of my head.