J
japhy
Guest
It is not part of the rubrics for the final blessing.
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John_Lilburne
Guest
I think this is misleading and confusing.
There are lots of blessings to choose from. A bishop can give an Apostolic Blessing “Throught the intercession of the blessed apostles Peter and Paul, may almighty God bless you …”.
In the Roman Missal, (pulbished Catholic Book Publishing Co., New York, in 1985) it has 20 Solemn Blessings. Then there are 26 more blessings in the section called “Prayers Over the People” (page 579).
More blessings can be used from the Book of Blessings, following the rubrics there. Here is an example, “Order for the Blessing of Missionaries Sent to Proclaim the Gospel”:
“490 Except when the Mass has its own proper solemn blessing, the following formulary may be used. The celebrant says:
The Lord be with you.
All reply:
And also with you.
In the following or similar words, the assisting deacon may then invite the people to receive the blessing.
Bow your heads and pray for God’s blessing.
Then, with hands outstreched over the missionaries, the celebrant says:
May God, who in Chirst has shown us his truth and love, …”.
(Book of Blessings, Liturgical Press, Minnesota, 1989, ISBN 0-8146-1875-8, page 160.)
Given the wide range of options I can understand a small Mass book having something like “similar words” to explain that the blessing might not be the one they have. This small book might be called a “Sunday Missal” or “Daily Missal”. But my understanding is that the Roman Missal (and other liturgical books of the Roman Rite) do not allow the priest to deviate from the words of the blessings in these books.
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lak611
Guest
The blessings you describe here are always done before making the sign of the cross. The priest says, “Bow your heads and ask for God’s blessing.” Then the “The Mass is ended . . .” follows. In the situation I’m asking about, there is no “Bow your heads and ask for God’s blessing” and then one of those blessings. After the sign of the cross, what is the priest allowed to say?
K
Katie1723
Guest
I honestly don’t understand people going to Mass and seemingly “looking” for something done wrong. That’s not why I go.
Kathy
Kathy
Yes, it’s an abuse. Such exhortations belong to the homily.
Nevertheless, it’s still sufficiently minor that raising a ruckus over it with the priest will only (unfairly) paint you as a troublemaker. Probably best to let it slide.
J
japhy
Guest
You’ve said this in a number of threads on possible liturgical abuses, in which I’ve also written posts. No one is suggesting that any one of us is attending Mass seemingly “looking” for something done wrong. We simply notice things being done wrong because we are paying attention to the Mass, and we know the rubrics. I don’t hop from church to church looking for mistakes, but I can’t help but notice them.
C
Cat
Guest
Please keep in mind that I lived over 40 years as an active evangelical Protestant.
What you’re saying is that we can’t trust the priests or the bishops.
We have to know more than they do, have more discernment than they do, and be prepared to hold them accountable for their errors, and if they will not listen to us, we have to be prepared to either leave their parish, or stay in the parish under protest.
That’s what I hear you saying.
Is this what you are saying?
When I was Protestant, whenever I went to church, I always was on the alert for a mistake in the pastor’s sermon, especially if he taught something that was (from my understanding) anti-Biblical.
If the pastor continually taught anti-Biblical teachings, it was grounds to leave the church and look for a more Biblical-based church.
This is what I was taught to do from my childhood. I was taught that I should only listen to pastors who taught the true Word of God, and that I should leave the churches of pastors who taught anything other than the Word of God.
I refuse to act like a Protestant now that I am a Catholic.
I personally am willing to trust my priests and bishops, who have been through many years of school and training, who have been called by God to the priesthood and ordained sacramentally by an apostles of the Lord Jesus Christ.
If they do something that isn’t in the rubrics, then I trust that they have knowledge and understanding of the “rubrics” that I don’t have. They are much smarter and more experienced than I am.
If my priest or bishop is caught in blatent sin (e.g., sexual sin, molestation, lewd acts, etc.), then I will not trust that particular priest anymore.
But until this happens, I will trust those whom I consider to be my moral and spiritual superiors, those men whom the Lord Himself has entrusted with His work.
Unfortunately, given the state of many priests today, yes, the laity must indeed have knowledge and discernment, probably more than the priests and know what and when to report. Such are the rights granted by Redemptionis Sacramentum. Just take a look at some of the threads here on how many have been treated by their priests.
The laity needs to be very vigilant and knowledgeable in the faith and the worship of the Church. At the same time, they must be prudent and know when to pass over a minor error and when to report an invalid Mass to the bishop or to the Holy See.
One day, hopefully, it may no longer be necessary, but for now priests must be aware that there are smart laypeople out there ready to pounce on heterodoxy or heteropraxy, and that they are no longer free to lay their shenanigans on us.
J
John_Lilburne
Guest
I think saying “Bow you heads and pray for God’s blessing” is optional. It has in the Roman Missal:
“The deacon gives the invitation, or in his absence the priest himself may also give it: Bow your heads and pray for God’s blessing. Another form of invitation may be used.”
(Roman Missal, Catholic Book Publishing Co., New York, 1985, page 569.)
The blessing is not exactly the Sign of the Cross. The words that go with the Sign of the Cross are “In the name of the Father, and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit.” The words that go with the blessing are: “May almighty God bless you, the Father, and the Son, and the Holy Spirit.”
After this, what is the priest allowed to say? The priest or deacon says one of these three:
“Go in the peace of Christ.”
"The Mass is ended, go in peace.
“Go in peace to love and serve the Lord.”
I don’t think the priest is permitted to say anything else at this point.
It could be argued that the priest can make his own comments before this. It has in 2002 GIRM n. 31: “he may also make concluding comments to the entire sacred action before the dismissal.” But I think this would be a misunderstanding of what is meant by “dismissal” here.
I think it is better to follow the Roman Missal’s Order of Mass on this point. After the “Prayer After Communion” it has:
“CONCLUDING RITE
If there are any brief announcements, they are made at this time.
GREETING
The rite of dismissal takes place.
Facing the people, the priest extends his hands and sings or says:
The Lord be with you.”
(Roman Missal, Catholic Book Publishing Co., New York, 1985, page 565.)
The 2002 Latin edition of the Roman Missal has the same instructions.
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lak611
Guest
Great! I think you just answered my question. Thank you.
D
Dempsey1919
Guest
Ite Missa Est - sums it up perfectly really.
C
Cat
Guest
IMO, this approach would lead to pride. I would see myself as “better than all the other people sitting in Mass because I know more than they do.”
I am not a cop. I am a parishioner, and the priest is my father. He knows more than I do. My bishop knows more than my priests do.
I know that some of you must live in hell here on earth. I can honestly say that out of all the parishes that I have visited in my diocese, and all that I have visited in three states (Illinois, Missouri,and Michigan), I have never seen an “abuse.” Errors, yes. (A few weeks ago, I was playing at a wedding, and the priest totally bungled the Liturgy. Afterwards, he apologized to the musicians and explained that he was distracted by the antics and screams of the four little flower girls who decided that the sanctuary was a gymnasium! Their mothers were the bridesmaids, so no one was available to take these little girls out and calm them down. Poor priest!)
But I am willing to overlook errors. I make plenty myself.
I know that some of you say that an “error” is the beginning of an “abuse,” and that an “abuse” is the beginning of “heresy.” Sigh. I suppose.
But I also think that if we hold this philosophy, we may as well forget about Mass entirely as long as it is offered by non-glorified human beings. Last week, I spaced out at the end of Mass and stopped playing the Exit Hymn, even though the priest was still standing at the front of the sanctuary. He processed out with no music. THAT was an error! But I can assure you that it isn’t the beginning of the acid rock band and the half-naked dancing girls. It was a fricken’ error on my part because I was not paying attention because I am a human being!
To be very honest, I think that if I couldn’t find a Mass that suited me, I would wonder if it were ME, not the Mass.
BTW, for those who are wondering, my bishop is Thomas Doran, of the Diocese of Rockford. Look him up.
J
japhy
Guest
Actually, I’m saying “trust, but verify”. I can’t help the fact that I’ve read the GIRM and numerous instructions from the various dicasteries of the Vatican. I can’t help the fact that I know things about the Mass from being an Altar Boy more than a decade ago. So when I see things contrary to what I know, I question. Sometimes, it turns out I’m wrong. Sometimes, it turns out I’m not.
You can trust your priests and bishops, which is excellent! I applaud them and those who taught them in the seminary. They must have had good catechesis and formation.
Amen.
Do you feel that way about your area of expertise? I’m a computer programmer, and I don’t walk around thinking “I know more about Perl than those people”. The only time that pops into my head is… when I’m instructing people who know less about Perl than I do. It would be nice if more people had more experience with Perl so that less time could be spent in the learning and training and more time in the doing.
I feel the same way about Mass. If more people had a decent catechesis on the Mass (not necessarily as much as priests receive, but a good knowledge) then I wouldn’t feel like I’m the only one noticing things being done wrong consistently.
See, that’s the root of the issue here: not liturgical error, but consistent liturgical error. You don’t offer the EMHCs communion in the style of concelebrants by mistake. You don’t preach the Gospel from the pews by mistake. You don’t speak “we thank you for counting us worthy to be in your presence and serve you” (“be” should be “stand”) by mistake. When this happens week after week after week, it is clear you’re not making a mistake, you’re doing it wrong on purpose… maybe because you don’t know it’s wrong, maybe because you think you have the permission or right to change the manner something is to be done, or maybe because you think your way is better than the right way.
There’s a simple adage: say the black, do the red. If more priests followed that simple instruction (which should be emblazoned on the top of every page of the Sacramentary!) there would be minimal abuse and error. And if more priests actually got and read the various instructions from the Vatican (like Redemptionis Sacramentum) they’d know if a particular variation they use is acceptable or not.
That’s all I’m asking for.
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Pax_Vobiscum_57
Guest
I visited a parish on Sunday where the priest, after the Communion prayer, told everyone to sit back down & proceeded to report all the scores from the school’s sports team. He said the championship game is next Saturday, and the coach has permission to text him the scores during Mass. 
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japhy
Guest
I don’t know whether to pray for the priest or the sports teams or the faithful of the parish!I visited a parish on Sunday where the priest, after the Communion prayer, told everyone to sit back down & proceeded to report all the scores from the school’s sports team. He said the championship game is next Saturday, and the coach has permission to text him the scores during Mass.
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Brendan
Guest
You logic does not follow. Holy Orders is a gift of Grace, not a gift of Knowledge.
A priest or bishop only knows what they have been taught. Likewise with the laity.
Yes, the priest is your spiritual father, and he might even know more than you personally, but it does not follow from that that he is either more spirtual or more knowledgeable, or that he even knows more than some of your fellow parishioners.
Look at the St. Therese of Liseux, the Little Flower; she never went to a seminary, or even High School, but was far more knowledgeable in matters of the Faith than the VAST majority of priests or bishops.
O
Orionthehunter
Guest
This is absolutely true. There are only 32-33 Doctors of the Church, 264 Popes, thousands of Bishops, millions of Priests and hundreds of millions of people like Cat, you and me.
But I don’t see the relevance of this “analogy.” St. Terese herself in her pilgrimage to Rome came to realize the fallibility and weakness of Priests (a group she had previously held to an unrealistic standard of knowledge and holiness). And despite this realization, she still accepted her own subserviance to the princes of the Church (Bishops) and their deputies (Priests). St. Terese found redemptive merit in this submission and granting of respect.
Let me give you another example- St. Francis. Despite is call to “rebuild the Church”, he always held steadfast that he couldn’t do it by tearing down the Priests as to do so would be a critique of the Sacraments they bring, most especially that of the Eucharist.
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Brendan
Guest
Note that I never said that the priests or bishops are to be ‘torn down’ or anything even close.
Cat disagreed with the level of attention that the laity are required to hold our priests to. It is the very fact that we are obedient to the Holy See, like St. Therese, that we are called to chastize those who purposely alter the Liturgy without the due authority called for by the Vatican.
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Orionthehunter
Guest
No. Cat just said that she was going to take an approach toward her Priest that was to do her best to assume the best in his motives and his teaching such that she was not going to become his “cop.” Actually, this is quite Terese of Lisieux of her.
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Brendan
Guest
Motives are indepentant of the need for correction, all they speak to is to whether or not the priest is being disobedient.
If the priest mistakenly added the words to the blessing, the correct, approved text should be brought to his attention.
If the priest made a deliberate choice to ignore the texts approved by both the bishops and the Vatican, then the disobedience needs to be addressed.
That is what Rome has commanded us to do, and in humble obedience, we are to obey.
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