Is this appropriate during Mass?

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My pastor keeps reporting that statistically most of those who receive First Communion these days will never set foot inside Church again. I’m not defending the priest’s actions, he definitely should not allow it, but from his perspective, what does he have to lose? Who knows, maybe his bishop allows this on special occasions. Even in the EF, where women are “never” allowed in the sanctuary, they are allowed to make First Communion there (and when they wed). Just trying to see both sides here.
Having been protestant I’ve seen churches bend and do all sorts of things to “keep people/children” in church…they rarely work. It is the Spirit of God and the strong proclamation of Truth that draws and keeps people in their faith. We must pray, show a strong witness in and out of church and this will be attractive to staying a part of the church.
Priests can’t do everything…lay people need to be living faithfully to their Lord. Love of God and neighbor must be a priority in everyone’s life:)

mlz
 
In the Novus Ordo priests no longer read the epistle, but they do read the gospel.
 
The rubrics is silent on holding hands at the Our Father (the US Bishop Conference makes clear that the rubrics is silent on whether it is permitted or prohibited). As such, it is left to the good sense of the priest, considering the preferences of the congregation and local culture. Of those priests whom I have seen inviting children up to the altar to hold hands, most have done it well. Though I have also seen it badly executed.
I have never understood the false equation: if it is not in the rubrics = it can be done. I would like anyone who follows this line of argument to justify it. In fact, I’d challenge anyone who believes that is the case to cite authentic, current Church document that supports their argument.

The purpose of the rubrics, whether in the praenotanda of the rite, e.g. GIRM, GILH, etc. or within the rite are to describe what should be done. They would become too large if they were to contain lists of prohibited actions. It is looking for a permission that doesn’t exist to say if the rubrics make no mention of something it must be permitted.

When I go up to Communion at Mass on Sundays the rubrics don’t say that I can’t rap my thanksgiving for receiving our Lord on my way back to the pew. Because the rubrics don’t prohibit this it doesn’t mean that I should do it.

The lack of a direct prohibition in the rubrics doesn’t imply that an action is permitted.
 
I have never understood the false equation: if it is not in the rubrics = it can be done. I would like anyone who follows this line of argument to justify it. In fact, I’d challenge anyone who believes that is the case to cite authentic, current Church document that supports their argument.
There is a difference between the Northern and the Southern approaches to the law (reference to N & S Europeans, and Americans approach is largely Northern). The Northern attitude is that whatever that is not stated is not permitted while the Southern attitude is that whatever is not stated is not prohibited. This is probably an over-generalisation but there are different ways of looking at the law when the law is silent.

In Rome, being of Southern mind, normally treats silence of the law as being not prohibited while not being mandatory. The title of GIRM is actually quite instructive in that these are General instructions. This means that outside of specific prohibitions, Rome does allow local adaptation of the GIRM, with approval of the Congregation for the Liturgy. For instance, my softcopy of the GIRM is for England & Wales, with additions and different paragraph numbers from the US version.

In addition there were local adaptation outside of the GIRM. I understand that the Filipino bishops encouraged the holding of hands at mass but did not make it mandatory (the poster did not link to any document and it is possible that Asian bishops online presence are not as extensive as in the West). I also understand that the US bishops did discuss both the holding of hands and specifically encouraging the Orans position but in the end declined to issue any advisory on it. usccb.org/prayer-and-worship/liturgical-resources/posture/orans-or-open-hand-prayer-posture.cfm

The GIRM is clear on the posture of extending of hands by those celebrating and concelebrating, which implies that they are not permitted to hold hands. The prescribed posture for the congregation is not stated but the Missal rubrics does state that the people are required to stand at the Our Father with no mention of what to do with the hands. If we were to follow the position that what is not stated is not permitted, then it follows that all positions of the hands would be prohibited, including the Orans position or the folding of hands.

I am new to this site and not being American, I am now realising that there is a strong undercurrent against holding of hands among some quarters of the American church. In fact, I understand that a wry comment was made by a bishop during the debate on the Orans position that requiring that position in US would finally do away with the holding of hands. I also realise that part of the unpopularity is that people sometimes insensitively grabs someone else’s hands at mass who may not wish to hold hands.

Personally, I stand and hold hands at Sunday mass when I am at the Children’s Liturgy of the Word (no strangers here - all the children hold hands but not forced to) or when I am with my girlfriend. I don’t stretch out to hold hands with anyone else.

Perplexingly, at daily mass, I kneel throughout the Eucharistic prayer all the way to communion. I know this contravenes the rubrics (which prescribe standing) but I believe I can justify it. So far no one has complained about it but rather complained when I am with the children at Sunday mass when it doesn’t contravene the rubrics. I guess Catholics allow contravention of the rubrics if you show yourself more pious than the rubrics or themselves!!

Ultimately, I think the only requirement is for all Catholics to be sensitive and tolerant of all expressions of personal piety, both of those holding the posture and those responding to someone else’s posture. Shouldn’t this be protected by the First Amendment in the Church?😉
 
This is the regulation in my diocese. It is not universal, but I completely agree with it. Nobody has a “right” to read at Mass. It is a privilege and a ministry which should be taken seriously.
There is nothing to suggest that children who carry out this ministry do not take it seriously or regard it as a privilege. I disagree with the implication that until a person is confirmed they are somehow not able to take this ministry seriously enough. If a child can read reverently, clearly, with understanding, and with meaning, has a good understanding of the importance of what they are doing, and displays an appropriate attitude, then there is no valid reason why they should not be able to read at Mass. Say the Prayers of the Faithful is a good way for suitable children to begin and can help build their confidence, as it’s a bit less daunting to begin with than a full reading. I see no problem with that at all.
 
There is a difference between the Northern and the Southern approaches to the law (reference to N & S Europeans, and Americans approach is largely Northern). The Northern attitude is that whatever that is not stated is not permitted while the Southern attitude is that whatever is not stated is not prohibited. This is probably an over-generalisation but there are different ways of looking at the law when the law is silent.
Are you able to cite a reference to support this. I’ve never heard of this approach before. Because I’ve not heard of it doesn’t mean it doesn’t exist. Considering the number of law books I’ve read I’m surprised I’ve never come across this if it does exist.
In Rome, being of Southern mind, normally treats silence of the law as being not prohibited while not being mandatory.
In Rome canon law is followed, not civil law. Their mindset would be a canon law one.
The title of GIRM is actually quite instructive in that these are General instructions.
This statement makes me further doubt what you say above. The GIRM are not just instructions. They are ecclesiastical law. See Canon 2 and any good canon law commentary on canon 2.
Rome does allow local adaptation of the GIRM
Determined by episcopal conferences and with the Holy See’s approval. Local adaptations don’t mean any parish can adapt it.
with approval of the Congregation for the Liturgy.
There’s no such dicastery. Do you mean the Congregation for Divine Worship and the Discipline of the Sacraments.
If we were to follow the position that what is not stated is not permitted, then it follows that all positions of the hands would be prohibited, including the Orans position or the folding of hands.
That’s not a reasonable line of argument to take. Just because no mention is made of what position the laity must put their hands in doesn’t infer they can do nothing with their hands. However, a lack of reference to the laity’s hand position doesn’t give licence to hold hands or use the orans position.
I am new to this site and not being American, I am now realising that there is a strong undercurrent against holding of hands among some quarters of the American church.
I’m not American nor am I anywhere in the Americas.
Ultimately, I think the only requirement is for all Catholics to be sensitive and tolerant of all expressions of personal piety
The Mass is about worshipping together as a community it isn’t about one’s own personal piety.
 
Just because no mention is made of what position the laity must put their hands in doesn’t infer they can do nothing with their hands. However, a lack of reference to the laity’s hand position doesn’t give licence to hold hands or use the orans position.
Yes it does. If the Church wished for the laity not to hold their hands as such, the Church would give instruction accordingly. The fact is that the Church does not want to over-regiment or over-control the laity regarding such issues.

Without instruction, who decides? The individual? The guy next to the individual who has a different opinion? The Church does not prescribe how a member of the laity holds their hands.
 
Yes it does. If the Church wished for the laity not to hold their hands as such, the Church would give instruction accordingly. The fact is that the Church does not want to over-regiment or over-control the laity regarding such issues.

Without instruction, who decides? The individual? The guy next to the individual who has a different opinion? The Church does not prescribe how a member of the laity holds their hands.
What is your premiss for claiming that we can do something that is not prescribed in the rubrics? I think I ought to be clear. I do not say that the Church ought to produce a list of prohibitions. Why should we do things not in the rubrics? The rubrics tell us what to do. They do not tell us to hold hands. So why hold them? They do not tell us to put our hands in the orans position. In this latter case it seems the laity want to take on those things that which belongs to priests.
 
What is your premiss for claiming that we can do something that is not prescribed in the rubrics? I think I ought to be clear. I do not say that the Church ought to produce a list of prohibitions. Why should we do things not in the rubrics? The rubrics tell us what to do. They do not tell us to hold hands. So why hold them? They do not tell us to put our hands in the orans position. In this latter case it seems the laity want to take on those things that which belongs to priests.
The point is that the rubrics do not specify how we hold our hands. So how can you therefore make an assumption that the way you hold your hands is the manner in which the Church prefers. How do you hold your hands? Is the way you hold them specified in the rubrics? Then why are you holding them that way?

The Church states when we stand, kneel, sit down etc., so we ought to follow them (although laity are not strictly speaking bound by any rubrics) but regarding our hands we may hold them any way we feel suits, so long as we observe Christian charity and respect those around us.

Personally I am not keen on people holding hands with each other, or holding their hands in the orans position, but they are free to do so until it is specified that they are not.
 
Personally I am not keen on people holding hands with each other, or holding their hands in the orans position, but they are free to do so until it is specified that they are not.
I think that would be a common sense position.

Why some Western-orientated Catholics choose to generate so much heat over what the narrow range of minor issues that divides us rather than revel in the light of the common faith that we hold together but are trying to express in different ways is beyond me!!:confused:

If everyone had followed exactly what everyone else is doing all throughout history, with no deviation or diversity (as in the mind of people who believed in a monolithic and uniform Catholicism), we would never have the mass that we have today. Obviously, the mass has developed because someone somewhere inserted something that they thought would be useful to their prayer and worship. If not, we would have the same identical mass as in the first century (not that there is anything wrong with that mass).

Lighten up guys, the Church is not going to fall apart because someone chooses to pray differently!! As long as our prayers are guided by the Holy Spirit (and I believe mine are), we should temper our piety with some sensitivity for those who may seek to pray differently from us when we are praying together. Of course, if the pastor or the bishop advises that my praying methods are disruptive to others or not in line with church teachings, I may have to find another method. Let common sense and sensitivity rule.
 
I think that would be a common sense position.

Why some Western-orientated Catholics choose to generate so much heat over what the narrow range of minor issues that divides us rather than revel in the light of the common faith that we hold together but are trying to express in different ways is beyond me!!:confused:

If everyone had followed exactly what everyone else is doing all throughout history, with no deviation or diversity (as in the mind of people who believed in a monolithic and uniform Catholicism), we would never have the mass that we have today. Obviously, the mass has developed because someone somewhere inserted something that they thought would be useful to their prayer and worship. If not, we would have the same identical mass as in the first century (not that there is anything wrong with that mass).

Lighten up guys, the Church is not going to fall apart because someone chooses to pray differently!! As long as our prayers are guided by the Holy Spirit (and I believe mine are), we should temper our piety with some sensitivity for those who may seek to pray differently from us when we are praying together. Of course, if the pastor or the bishop advises that my praying methods are disruptive to others or not in line with church teachings, I may have to find another method. Let common sense and sensitivity rule.
Sorry for the outburst - that was my frustration talking. Quite unbecoming of the tolerance that I believe in and that I prayed for at mass today.
 
In the Novus Ordo priests no longer read the epistle, but they do read the gospel.
The Gospel is always supposed to be read by a deacon - it is their specific charism. In the absence of a deacon it will be read by a priest for he is also still a deacon.
 
Sorry for the outburst - that was my frustration talking. Quite unbecoming of the tolerance that I believe in and that I prayed for at mass today.
I can’t see anything intolerant in what you’ve written. There’s nothing wrong with expressing your views.
 
Wow…priests never fail to amaze me! I’ve never seen anyone but a priest read the Gospel. However, my priest constantly made everyone come up for the Our Father. Although I must admit that didn’t seem too bad, everyone of the kids hated it completely. It makes church seem like a hippy hand holding convention.
 
I think its okay - its a good way to get the children involved & interested in the mass - bringing them closer to Our Lord.
The Holy Sacrifice of the Mass is not the parish children’s theater, nor is it an outreach meet-and-greet party. Sacred Liturgy must be as close as possible to the provisions of the General Instruction of the Roman Missal.

@holding hands during the Our Father: that’s an innovation pushed forth by the laity that by God’s grace and some pastoral attention will fade off in due time.
 
… but they are free to do so until it is specified that they are not.
That is your opinion. You have, of course, the right to your opinion. I respect your opinion but I don’t concur with it. If you hold that is it more than personal opinion can you cite any document that teaches we are free to choose what we do. I’m not asking just for documents from the Holy See but I’d be happy to look at any documents you can cite from an episcopal conference or a diocese.
 
can you cite any document that teaches we are free to choose what we do
There is no such document. What he means is that nobody can force the congregation to adopt a given posture. You can’t have an army of servers running around the pews and splitting hands and forcing them into any specific position. People are free to chose, even when the choice can be an innovation and thus a liturgical abuse.
 
There is no such document. What he means is that nobody can force the congregation to adopt a given posture. You can’t have an army of servers running around the pews and splitting hands and forcing them into any specific position. People are free to chose, even when the choice can be an innovation and thus a liturgical abuse.
I’m not proposing the servers do this. It’d be more appropriate for the ushers to do that. Irony aside at least there seems to be some hope that some might see the liturgical abuse. No one stops you but does that mean you should?
 
People are free to chose, even when the choice can be an innovation and thus a liturgical abuse.
Can the laity commit liturgical abuse? I was under the impression that liturgical abuse can only be committed by the clergy. The laity are not bound by rubrics in the way that the clergy are.
 
Can the laity commit liturgical abuse? I was under the impression that liturgical abuse can only be committed by the clergy. The laity are not bound by rubrics in the way that the clergy are.
True, not in the way the clergy are (since they are, after all, only lay faithful), and I don’t know if we can speak of “liturgical abuse” properly, but of course the laity can commit violations of the norms of the liturgy - especially in the Ordinary Form of the Roman Rite, where the congregation is very involved in the liturgy.

For instance: the worst case of liturgical abuses is termed graviora delicta and they can indeed be committed by lay faithful (such as “taking away or retaining the consecrated species for sacrilegious ends, or the throwing them away”, or simulating the celebration of the Mass). It is considered a l.a. of grave matter for the faithful to take by themselves or to hand from one to another the sacred host or the sacred chalice (except where we have a lay Extraordinary Minister of Holy Communion).

Holding hands during the Our Father is thus very mild in my eyes, especially when there is no clear rubric speaking against this.

The point is just that, though: nobody says people should do such a liturgical gesture. The Sign of Peace is clearly defined, for instance, as a moment in which the lay faithful interact with certain gestures. But nowhere is said that at the prayer of the Our Father anything besides standing should be done.

It splits my brain in half when people tell me: “ooh, it’s so nice…who cares if it’s not in the rubrics…it doesn’t matter…it’s a good thing…”. To me, it’s simple: someone came up with it and it became widespread. Much like a cold or a summer song. If the Holy See ever incorporates into the GIRM the gesture, or even mentions it somewhere, matters will change. To this point, however, it is not - to keep the thread title - appropriate (just like receiving a blessing instead of Holy Communion).
 
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