Is this canonically wrong?

[Gidge]

As an Orthodox why does it bother you what Catholics or the Pope does, you appear to be looking down your nose, don’t be so rigid, I see on U Tube also the Orthodox giving out about the Bishops waving there arms and doing a kind of dance in Rio, don’t be so stuffy, David in the Old Testament danced in front of the Ark, are you going to give out to God for allowing David to dance in front of him also. Catholics did not make any comments on the Patriarch in Russia excepting a very expensive watch which cost a few thousand as it had real diamonds meant to be given to him by President Putin was it a sin against the poor and was us Catholics shocked, scandalised, that he wore it all the time and was proud of it and no talk of him selling it or giving it to the poor, I could say “Was this fitting” and what does that say about the Patriarch- did I put a comment on the Orthodox Forum with this comment on what you all thought of this scandal but as a Catholic I feel its none of my business to comment

Back to Our Holy Father and His beach Ball and jersey, he is so in touch with the Lord, he most probably like a child went running up to the Tabernacle saying Lord look what I brought back to offer to you please keep the people of Brazil safe and holy, the offering was not done during Mass times, or at anytime that a Liturgical Function was on, but rather off the plane and straight to the Church with his offering what a lovely simple response to God as His Father. Don’t be such a Pharisee.

So you’re saying this may have been a “photo-op” ?

 

[Mickey]

Usually you’d expect that only those things which pertain to the liturgy would be placed on the altar. Canon 1239.1 states:

**Proper reverence for the altar means the only objects that may be placed on it are those which are necessary for the liturgical celebration. **

Interesting. So if there is no Liturgy, the Roman Catholic Church says you can place whatever you like on the Altar? I did not know this. Thanks for answering the question.

 

[Mickey]

you appear to be looking down your nose

Not at all. It is something that surprised me to see.

I see on U Tube also the Orthodox giving out about the Bishops waving there arms and doing a kind of dance in Rio,

Yes. That was very odd. I did not expect to see so many bishops dancing like that.

don’t be so stuffy

Why are you insulting me?

Don’t be such a Pharisee.

More insults? Careful with that beam in your eye.

 

[R_C]

Interesting. So if there is no Liturgy, the Roman Catholic Church says you can place whatever you like on the Altar? I did not know this. Thanks for answering the question.

No, that is not what the Catholic Church says. The quote you emphasize is from a commentary by canon law experts. It is fairly possible that the experts decided to comment only in regards to the time when the liturgy is taking place, not considering it necessary to offer their opinion on the time where there is no liturgy.

However, the Code of Canon Law does not mention Liturgy at all, but rather says:

An altar, whether fixed or movable, must be reserved for divine worship alone, to the absolute exclusion of any profane use.

The altar is reserved for divine worship, therefore you cannot place whatever you like on the altar - you can only place that which is intended for divine worship.

 

[Seamus_L]

I felt a little uneasy.

 

[Mickey]

The altar is reserved for divine worship. So no, you cannot place whatever you like on the altar.

So then…these items should not have been placed there?

 

[R_C]

So then…these items should not have been placed there?

These items were unusual tokens of thanksgiving. They were placed there for divine worship. The Pope wasn’t just putting them on the altar because he needed a place for them to stay while he prayed - they were part of his prayer, and an offering and sacrifice inasmuch as he didn’t take them with him afterwards.

In many places (at least in Italy) people who receive special graces from the Lord (for instance, a healing, or a lady who finally becomes a mother) would on some occasions approach the altar and place in front of it items such as baby socks or crutches. That too seems to be something in the context of divine worship.

Remember that the Lord picked some dust in his hand, spit on it, and placed the mud in the eyes of a blind man to make him whole. Appearance often misleads us.

 

[Gidge]

So then…these items should not have been placed there?

That is what I would say.

I know an elderly priest who keeps paper cups of water on the reredos during Mass, but this is more out of necessity/health than out of novelty, or whatever reason people use when seeking a reason for not following the rules.

 

[Mickey]

They were placed there for divine worship.

As part of the divine worship for the Mass?

In many places (at least in Italy) people who receive special graces from the Lord (for instance, a healing, or a lady who finally becomes a mother) would on some occasions approach the altar and place at the bottom (not on top of if) items such as baby socks or crutches. That too seems to be something in the context of divine worship.

I have seen this at shrines. But I have not seen it at the base of the Altar…and certainly not on top of the Altar.

 

[Mickey]

Please stop your accusations Jharek…I truly thought that this is what he meant. I know next to nothing about canon law…and it is beneath you to accuse me of ill will.

 

[Mickey]

That is what I would say.

Thank you for your honest responses.

 

[Mickey]

I felt a little uneasy.

I know many Catholics who felt that way…that is why I asked the question.

 

[R_C]

As part of the divine worship for the Mass?

No, not as part of Holy Mass.

This was a special visit that the Pope made to the Shrine of Our Lady Salus Populi Romani at the Patriarchal Basilica of Santa Maria Maggiore.

Canon Law prohibits any profane use. Here Fr. Serpa, one of our Catholic Apologists, clarifies:

“Profane” as an adjective is defined: “showing irreverence toward God or sacred things.” Certainly, there are degrees of the profane just as there are degrees of the sacred. …] You don’t turn the altar into a utility table for a projector or anything else.

Then again…remember that the bishop of Rome has supreme authority over liturgical matters.

 

[Celtic_Maiden]

We still have not discussed why the Patriarch accepted a watch worth thousands of roubles when he is a meant to be a man of God and not touched by the world with costly trinkets given to him, does that mean all Orthodox priests can wear expensive jewellery, saying that some of the Panagia that they wear around there necks are worth a fortune in solid gold, does that mean they can go around in expensive cars etc. ? Especially if the faithful give them expensive gifts. Don’t the monks take the vow of poverty. ?

Just wondering.

 

[Gidge]

Then again…remember that the bishop of Rome has supreme authority over liturgical matters.

This statement means nothing.

While it is true the Holy Father is the supreme legislator in all Church matters, I don’t think that this gives him license to have an abuse-fest or act on a whim without regard for the established rules that are currently in place.

Acting in a make-it-up-as-you-go-along manner, as the statement above suggests is contrary to the humility that is the hallmark of Pope Francis and his papacy.

 

[Mickey]

And goes to follow for me, that he meant, if there is no Liturgical celebration, other objects may be placed on the Altar.

And you jumped down my throat.

 

[MorEphrem]

Canonically wrong? No, as has been stated they can be seen as offerings. Tacky? Yes, I wouldn’t offer a king anything less than the best, and certainly not a T-shirt (imagine handing a secular king a T-shirt and beach ball ).

 

[Mickey]

We still have not discussed why the Patriarch accepted a watch

Stay on topic or you will be reported.

 

[R_C]

Acting in a make-it-up-as-you-go-along manner, as the statement above suggests is contrary to the humility that is the hallmark of Pope Francis and his papacy.

I was the first one to remind of that in my first post . I am pointing out that since we are starting to go down to the nitty-gritty of Canon Law, the Holy Father can define that these special offerings were not profane in this context and due to his office his determination is as valid as Canon Law itself - while, for instance a bishop or priest could not do the same thing.

 

[Brendan_64]

In this case, the Holy Father had just returned from his first apostolic trip and decided to pay a visit to Our Lady Protectress of the Roman People, and he decided to place on the altar a special offering as a token of the love of the Brazilian people and of all the youth who gathered for WYD. Now the altar is a place for offerings to be placed before God, and in this case while it may strike as a sharp contrast, these usually profane objects had in fact the character of the sacred offering.

I completely agree. This was not simply some tacky t-shirt and beach-ball. The t-shirt and beach-ball could be seen as representing the youth of Brazil, with all their vibrancy and enjoyment of life. It is very fitting that the Pope places these on the altar and prays.

The meeting of the profane and the divine happens at every Mass in the priest in the Holy sacrament.