Is this cohabitation?

[wild_thing]

Am I missing something?

Living under the same roof is cohabitating. Period.

Belorg, in regards to temptations, do you smoke but not inhale?

 

[Spirithound]

Should ‘A’ later commit fornication, he bears that sin. You are not free of sin from his failure, however. Since your example was the one he followed, you would bear the sin of Scandal (again, this is true whether you accept being a role model or not and even if you are ignorant of that fact).

How does one repent of the sin of Scandal?

 

[Alterum]

There seem to be several debates going on here that don’t really have anything to do with my questions.

Thanks to all those who replied sincerely. As I implied, I don’t need convincing (either that the arrangement would be scandalous or that scandal is sinful or about what scandal actually is). I just wanted to make sure my understanding of scandal was accurate.

So, to my other question, I just want to make sure that my girlfriend staying in an apartment with my brother (who has long-time girlfriend) would be acceptable. It seems to me that this wouldn’t bring scandal, as no one would think that anything was happening. Moreover, as much as I don’t like opposite-sex people living under the same roof, I think these are about the best conditions under which such a thing can happen. (Note that this on a university campus in which most if not all of the dorms are co-ed.)

 

[belorg]

Am I missing something?

Living under the same roof is cohabitating. Period.

Technically to co-habit means to live together under the same roof. however, nobody will say that living under the same roof with your mother or your sister is a sin.
So in that context to cohabit means something else, namely: “living together as if you were husband and wife.”
Does Alterum plan to do that? No
Will Alterum be tempted? Probably
Will he resist the temptation? Who knows?

Belorg, in regards to temptations, do you smoke but not inhale?

No, I don’t smoke. Period.
Every year during Lent I don’t drink any alcohol. Does that mean I don’t go to a bar with my friends? No, I still have a drink in a bar, and I watch my friends drink beer or wine while I’m having a coffee or water.
And if I should fall for the temptation and drink beer with my friends, I would not blame them. But then, I am not a Catholic and don’t project my own weaknesses onto others.

 

[eagle_eye222001]

If it’s not a conscious decision, it’s not a mortal sin.

Correct. This situation will be a conscious decision at some point though…and if the will is weakened enough, you are still responsible for continually allowing your will to be weakened.

That’s the point. Just because you and some other posters here are too weak to resist the temptation does not mean the same holds for Alterum. He should decide for himself what is the best.

I talked about this in my previous post.

Not if his will is strong enough.

He doesn’t know that. And it would be presumptious to assume that one is the exception when so many have thought of themselves only to fall. Again we are risking mortal sin here and damage to a relationship.

They don’t sleep together in the same room.

Correct. Sleeping in separate rooms still constitutes living together when you share many other living spaces.

Maybe, but who are we to judge this?

You have already decided several times that you are someone to judge this by debating cohabitation with us.

Sure it’s different to everyone, that’s why you cannot base your judgment on what other people would or would not do in that situation.

I responded on this.

No, but I know that if I were in Alterum’s situation, I would not be betting my relationship, and if I believed sleeping with my girlfriend was a mortal sin (which obviously, I don’t) I would not be betting that either.
Isn’t it better to just lock everyone up, so they won’t have any temptation at all and be saved? The world is full of temptations, and if you cannot deal with them, don’t live.

Your suggesting an extreme situation. The everyday temptations we face are magnitudes less tempting than being close to a girl we have (strong) feelings for. Also the many daily temptations we face do not involve the huge bet of a relationship and very often do not put us into a situation where we are severely tempted to have sex.

Am I missing something?

Living under the same roof is cohabitating. Period.

Belorg, in regards to temptations, do you smoke but not inhale?

I agree. Previously I held a different viewpoint to pretend cohabitation was not the same as living together without sex as the issue of near occasion of sin was still enough to not justify living together. I did this to make the argument simpler, however I could have argued otherwise. I will do that next time.

There seem to be several debates going on here that don’t really have anything to do with my questions.

Thanks to all those who replied sincerely. As I implied, I don’t need convincing (either that the arrangement would be scandalous or that scandal is sinful or about what scandal actually is). I just wanted to make sure my understanding of scandal was accurate.

So, to my other question, I just want to make sure that my girlfriend staying in an apartment with my brother (who has long-time girlfriend) would be acceptable. It seems to me that this wouldn’t bring scandal, as no one would think that anything was happening. Moreover, as much as I don’t like opposite-sex people living under the same roof, I think these are about the best conditions under which such a thing can happen. (Note that this on a university campus in which most if not all of the dorms are co-ed.)

I am very reluctant to say okay on a couple counts.

1. Even if the surrounding community does not blink an eye to a girl living in an apartment with a guy, it shouldn’t be done as it sends the wrong approval message. So the point that the local community does this is irrelevant.
2. From what you told us, this is being done for financial reasons…I mean…I’m sure you trust your brother…but that is putting him in an awkward situation…which could potentially go very bad.

I would like to hear from others on this, however I just don’t see this being okay (or even partially okay)

Technically to co-habit means to live together under the same roof. however, nobody will say that living under the same roof with your mother or your sister is a sin.

Situation is vastly different as nearly everyone does not have the same feelings for the immediate family members as they do for their intended spouse. You are mixing very different relationships which carry very different circumstances.

So in that context to cohabit means something else, namely: “living together as if you were husband and wife.”
Does Alterum plan to do that? No
Will Alterum be tempted? Probably
Will he resist the temptation? Who knows?

Alterum is asking for the Catholic opinion on this. If he was an atheist, he wouldn’t care and seek approval of a religion he didn’t believe in.

I apologize to Alterum for derailing his thread, however I felt responsible to defend and help clarify Catholic teaching. If you wish to continue a debate on cohabitation or on a hypothetical cohabitation situation, we should start a new thread on the matter.

No, I don’t smoke. Period.
Every year during Lent I don’t drink any alcohol. Does that mean I don’t go to a bar with my friends? No, I still have a drink in a bar, and I watch my friends drink beer or wine while I’m having a coffee or water.
And if I should fall for the temptation and drink beer with my friends, I would not blame them. But then, I am not a Catholic and don’t project my own weaknesses onto others.

He did not ask for a debate on cohabitation in general. In this thread you are impressing an opinion on matters that was not asked from an atheistic viewpoint.

 

[CuriousInIL]

Am I missing something?

Living under the same roof is cohabitating. Period.

Belorg, in regards to temptations, do you smoke but not inhale?

Do you have a cite for “living under the same roof is cohabitating”?
When I look at Websters Third New International (BTW the clearly best American dictionary) I see the definition as: “1 : to live together as or as if as husband and wife.”

 

[eaglehwsj]

To answer the original post:

At Texas A&M, there is a house where several people of both genders live. In the 17 years that the house has existed, there has been one problem (quickly taken care of). The only reason that they have been able to do this is because of very strict rules: among them, no sharing of rooms by guys and girls, and ABSOLUTLY no dating among housemates (in the one case, both members of the dating couple were immediately evicted.

So specificly answer your question, my opinion is that you and your girlfriend living under the same roof (even in different rooms) could very easily cause scandel and should only be used as a last resort. But, her living with your brother, so long as it is not just the two of them, should be just fine. However if you discover the arrangement is causing scandel, you are morally bound to address it, either by moving or by addressing those who believe that sin is occuring.

 

[belorg]

He doesn’t know that. And it would be presumptious to assume that one is the exception when so many have thought of themselves only to fall. Again we are risking mortal sin here and damage to a relationship.

If you are strong enough, you don’t risk anything. And if you are weak, you will eventually fall for a temptation, whether you live under the same room or not.

You have already decided several times that you are someone to judge this by debating cohabitation with us.

I do not judge what will happen, because I do not know that, and I most certainly don’t judge people because they do not want to cohabit because they fear they will be tempted into fornication. People who feel that way should not live under the same room, I agree with that. But the point remains: people differ and if Alterum is convinced he’s strong enough, then what he does or not is none of our business.

Your suggesting an extreme situation. The everyday temptations we face are magnitudes less tempting than being close to a girl we have (strong) feelings for.

If you live a normal life, there will be very strong and less strong temptations. the only way to avoid them is stop living or have someone lock you up, and then be very careful not to masturbate, because then you have committed another mortal sin with ‘the girl we have strong feelings for’ miles away.

Also the many daily temptations we face do not involve the huge bet of a relationship and very often do not put us into a situation where we are severely tempted to have sex.

Many daily situtaion won’t, but some daily situation will.

Situation is vastly different as nearly everyone does not have the same feelings for the immediate family members as they do for their intended spouse. You are mixing very different relationships which carry very different circumstances.

Of course the situation is vastly different, but I was responding to wild thing’s claim that “living under the same roof IS cohabiting”

Alterum is asking for the Catholic opinion on this. If he was an atheist, he wouldn’t care and seek approval of a religion he didn’t believe in.

I am an atheist but I have Catholic roots and I have never heard any Catholic rule that says that living under the same roof is in itself, a sin.

I apologize to Alterum for derailing his thread, however I felt responsible to defend and help clarify Catholic teaching. If you wish to continue a debate on cohabitation or on a hypothetical cohabitation situation, we should start a new thread on the matter.

I do not specifically wish to debate this, I want to make sure that Alterum gets the correct information.

He did not ask for a debate on cohabitation in general. In this thread you are impressing an opinion on matters that was not asked from an atheistic viewpoint.

Again, I wasn’t talking from an atheist viewpoint. If I was, I would have advised him to really cohabit with his girlfriend and to enjoy life instead of having someone else talk him into guilt-feelings.
What I said was something virtually every Catholic I know (and believe me, I know lots of Catholics) would agree on.

 

[belorg]

Do you have a cite for “living under the same roof is cohabitating”?
When I look at Websters Third New International (BTW the clearly best American dictionary) I see the definition as: “1 : to live together as or as if as husband and wife.”

I am not a native speaker, but my dictionary says the same thing.

So, by that definition, Alterum is not planning on cohabiting.

 

[SonCatcher]

How does one repent of the sin of Scandal?

It is difficult due to partial ignorance (the scandalous act is known but the actual sin of scandal is unknown). I think that is why our Lord said it would be “better” for him to have a millstone hung on his neck and he be thrown into the sea.

Witness this passage:[BIBLEDRB]Ezekiel 33:8-9[/BIBLEDRB]See that even though a sinner is responsible for his/her own sin, another person may indeed share culpability.

[BIBLEDRB]Romans 14:20-21[/BIBLEDRB]

Here, the apostle Paul argues for avoiding all action that can cause a weaker Christian to “stumble” (e.g. sin).

Nevertheless, ALL things are possible for God. I am sure if the person who committed scandal repents and Confesses the scandalous act he can find forgiveness.

 

[SonCatcher]

Do you have a cite for “living under the same roof is cohabitating”?
When I look at Websters Third New International (BTW the clearly best American dictionary) I see the definition as: “1 : to live together as or as if as husband and wife.”

The question was not about the dictionary definition of “cohabit”.

The question was about Catholic moral teaching in regards to the proposed situation.

“Cohabit” is the English word that most closely resembles the description of an unmarried couple living in the same residence, even in the absence of fornication. If you have a better one, feel free to suggest it.

 

[eagle_eye222001]

…Again, I wasn’t talking from an atheist viewpoint. If I was, I would have advised him to really cohabit with his girlfriend and to enjoy life instead of having someone else talk him into guilt-feelings.
What I said was something virtually every Catholic I know (and believe me, I know lots of Catholics) would agree on.

Popular opinion doesn’t determine Catholic teaching and we are not guilting as you slyly suggest. If you wish to further debate this as you show, then we should start another thread with respect to Alterum’s wishes as quoted below.

There seem to be several debates going on here that don’t really have anything to do with my questions.

Thanks to all those who replied sincerely. As I implied, I don’t need convincing (either that the arrangement would be scandalous or that scandal is sinful or about what scandal actually is). I just wanted to make sure my understanding of scandal was accurate.

So, to my other question, I just want to make sure that my girlfriend staying in an apartment with my brother (who has long-time girlfriend) would be acceptable. It seems to me that this wouldn’t bring scandal, as no one would think that anything was happening. Moreover, as much as I don’t like opposite-sex people living under the same roof, I think these are about the best conditions under which such a thing can happen. (Note that this on a university campus in which most if not all of the dorms are co-ed.)

 

[surfinpure]

There seem to be several debates going on here that don’t really have anything to do with my questions.

Thanks to all those who replied sincerely. As I implied, I don’t need convincing (either that the arrangement would be scandalous or that scandal is sinful or about what scandal actually is). I just wanted to make sure my understanding of scandal was accurate.

So, to my other question, I just want to make sure that my girlfriend staying in an apartment with my brother (who has long-time girlfriend) would be acceptable. It seems to me that this wouldn’t bring scandal, as no one would think that anything was happening. Moreover, as much as I don’t like opposite-sex people living under the same roof, I think these are about the best conditions under which such a thing can happen. (Note that this on a university campus in which most if not all of the dorms are co-ed.)

I’d avoid **any **co-ed arrangement, regardless of what is the recent cultural norm or how much money might be saved. The situation is fraught with potential problems, and scandal is still one of them (two unmarried adults of the opposite sex sharing a dwelling place).

To bring a touch of levity to the matter, haven’t you ever watched Judge Judy? Good grief! These things never work out well! :slapfight:

Spare yourself the grief!!

 

[CuriousInIL]

The question was not about the dictionary definition of “cohabit”.

The question was about Catholic moral teaching in regards to the proposed situation.

“Cohabit” is the English word that most closely resembles the description of an unmarried couple living in the same residence, even in the absence of fornication. If you have a better one, feel free to suggest it.

I suggest the one I quoted from Websters. BTW it doesn’t require fornication. But, “an unmarried couple living in the same residence” is way too broad IMO.

 

[CuriousInIL]

And I suppose I take it for granted that one cannot discuss whether the behavior at issue is cohabitation unless there is a specific definition of cohabitation that is being used.

I really have a problem with the “under the same roof” concept as a definition, because it is very broad and would, for example, encompass people in different apartments in the same building–something that I think is no where near cohabitation.

 

[SonCatcher]

And I suppose I take it for granted that one cannot discuss whether the behavior at issue is cohabitation unless there is a specific definition of cohabitation that is being used.

I really have a problem with the “under the same roof” concept as a definition, because it is very broad and would, for example, encompass people in different apartments in the same building–something that I think is no where near cohabitation.

We have been discussing whether a certain behavior is cohabitation. But the pertinent question here (since this is a Catholic discussion board) is whether Catholic moral teaching regards the situation as sinful.

When I was discussing the definition of “cohabit” (post #31), I specifically avoided the phrase “under the same roof” due to the issue of apartment buildings. Each apartment is a residence, however, so that is the term I used. I would even apply the term to a dorm room (presuming the floors are gender-separated).

 

[CuriousInIL]

I suggest the one I quoted from Websters. BTW it doesn’t require fornication. But, “an unmarried couple living in the same residence” is way too broad IMO.

We have been discussing whether a certain behavior is cohabitation. But the pertinent question here (since this is a Catholic discussion board) is whether Catholic moral teaching regards the situation as sinful.

When I was discussing the definition of “cohabit” (post #31), I specifically avoided the phrase “under the same roof” due to the issue of apartment buildings. Each apartment is a residence, however, so that is the term I used. I would even apply the term to a dorm room (presuming the floors are gender-separated).

I was quoting “same roof” from wild thing post #21, not from any of your posts. But I still don’t understand why one would make up a definition when it is a common word and there is no indication that the Church means it in any sense other than the clear dictionary definition.

 

[SonCatcher]

I was quoting “same roof” from wild thing post #21, not from any of your posts. But I still don’t understand why one would make up a definition when it is a common word and there is no indication that the Church means it in any sense other than the clear dictionary definition.

Again, the point is NOT the definition of a word. The point is instruction in Catholic morality. In Catholic morality, it is unacceptable for unrelated persons of the opposite sex to share a residence. Whatever term you would like to use to describe that is fine, so long as the meaning remains intact.

Would you like to suggest a term to convey the meaning “unrelated persons of the opposite sex sharing a single residence”?

 

[belorg]

Popular opinion doesn’t determine Catholic teaching and we are not guilting as you slyly suggest. If you wish to further debate this as you show, then we should start another thread with respect to Alterum’s wishes as quoted below.

I do not wish to debate this further. I have said all I wanted to say.

 

[surfinpure]

Again, the point is NOT the definition of a word. The point is instruction in Catholic morality. In Catholic morality, it is unacceptable for unrelated persons of the opposite sex to share a residence. Whatever term you would like to use to describe that is fine, so long as the meaning remains intact.

Would you like to suggest a term to convey the meaning “unrelated persons of the opposite sex sharing a single residence”?

How about “co-ed dwelling,” since “cohabiting” seems to be such a sticking point. Or, for “unrelated persons sharing a residence who are romantically involved but not up-to-anything,” hmm… “a bad idea?” :whacky:

I feel for the OP. He didn’t really come for a definition, just some moral guidance. OP, I hope you got something out of all this… somewhere?