Is this false ecummenism?

[GandalfTheWhite]

There is a breakfast to which I was invited. It’s mainly run by Evangelicals, who are very friendly and some of them are my friends. The idea is that they pray and then eat, talk and socialize.

I would like to go because I like these people, but I don’t like the ecumenical praying bit. If it was a Catholic event and they joined then I guess that would be a bit different. My conscience seems to be telling me that this is wrong.

What do you think? Wasn’t such thing actually unacceptable in the past?

 

[EmergencyOps]

I don’t see why it wouldn’t be okay. Church leaders meet, eat, and greet with other Christian leaders, striving for ecummenism.

If you’re gonna go, though, keep your wits about you and be aware that they may prostelyze. It’s in their nature…and actually, it should be in yours, too.

-Mark

 

[kleary]

There is a breakfast to which I was invited. It’s mainly run by Evangelicals, who are very friendly and some of them are my friends. The idea is that they pray and then eat, talk and socialize.

I would like to go because I like these people, but I don’t like the ecumenical praying bit. If it was a Catholic event and they joined then I guess that would be a bit different. My conscience seems to be telling me that this is wrong.

What do you think? Wasn’t such thing actually unacceptable in the past?

No problem attending a breakfast or socializing with them…or even saying prayers with them…as long as you do not substitute it for your Sunday or Holy Day obligations and are strong enough in your faith not to be swayed into their doctrines. (Normally, the doctrinal issues do not come up unless you have some strong fundamentalist ones there who will find out you are Catholic and approach you to “get saved”…you should know how to answer that issue obviously…you yourself can also use the occasion to help spread the Catholic Faith in some way)

I do not think something like what you are talking about was ever condemned in the past either.

Ken

 

[John_Higgins]

Like Nike says, just do it.

You’ll be glad you did.

John

 

[GandalfTheWhite]

I don’t see why it wouldn’t be okay. Church leaders meet, eat, and greet with other Christian leaders, striving for ecummenism.

Yes, but ecumenism should exist only to convert other religions to the One True Faith and I kinda fail see it in the breakfast (well, in fact it’s not there). I think that any other forms of ecumenisms, in which we are just trying to have a “better relationship with each other”, are wrong because they leads to religious indifference.

If you’re gonna go, though, keep your wits about you and be aware that they may prostelyze. It’s in their nature…and actually, it should be in yours, too.

I know them and they won’t. What I didn’t mention is that I’ve already been to their breakfast (they have it normally every week and they invite all Christians) but it’s just recently that I’ve started re-evaluating these kind of things. I mean I was never a fan of ecumenism that I see around the university but I sometimes went to those events just because of the social part. It was almost like a double-standard. Now I think I came to the conclusion that even that is wrong for the reasons I described above.

 

[Pax_et_Caritas]

Yes, but ecumenism should exist only to convert other religions to the One True Faith and I kinda fail see it in the breakfast (well, in fact it’s not there). I think that any other forms of ecumenisms, in which we are just trying to have a “better relationship with each other”, are wrong because they leads to religious indifference.

I have to agree with you. In fact, if you read the encyclical “Our Apostolic Mandate” by Pope Pius X, he condemns the Sillon in France for this very thing: Catholics mingling at social events with heretics and Freethinkers .

You could always go there with the intent of trying to convert them, but I do agree that it could be an occaision for religious indifferentism. I’ve got an idea…

Let’s use this example. Now, as we know, heresy is worse than any sin in the moral order, since heresy is a direct attack on God.

Now, would a pro life Catholic attend a breakfeast meeting with a group of abortion doctors, and militant “pro-choice” proponents? Well, attending this is actually worse, since what these people stand for is not just the death of the body (abortion), but heresy which results in the death of the soul.

I have found that in our day of religious indifferentism (which has effected us all more than we realize), it is always best to draw a parallel with a moral issue, such as abortion.

 

[GandalfTheWhite]

I have to agree with you. In fact, if you read the encyclical “Our Apostolic Mandate” by Pope Pius X, he condemns the Sillon in France for this very thing: Catholics mingling at social events with heretics and Freethinkers .

You could always go there with the intent of trying to convert them, but I do agree that it could be an occaision for religious indifferentism. I’ve got an idea…

Let’s use this example. Now, as we know, heresy is worse than any sin in the moral order, since heresy is a direct attack on God.

Now, would a pro life Catholic attend a breakfeast meeting with a group of abortion doctors, and militant “pro-choice” proponents? Well, attending this is actually worse, since what these people stand for is not just the death of the body (abortion), but heresy which results in the death of the soul.

I have found that in our day of religious indifferentism (which has effected us all more than we realize), it is always best to draw a parallel with a moral issue, such as abortion.

Yes.

One more thing I wanted to clear out is that the breakfast itself does not promote heresy because it’s basically 10 mins of prayers (“please God stay with XXX who is in hospital” etc.) followed by a breakfast. For this reason I wasn’t sure whether it’s wrong in this case or not. I was thinking that this could aid their conversion, but I’m not sure whether this is a strong argument. It will not be a place to discuss the Church and especially when being so outnumbered. The only way this could aid them is that this could establish some ties between their group and Catholics and get them interested in the Faith (as I said, they aren’t anti-catholic, they seem to be very open and I think they don’t really know what they are denying). I’m not sure is good enough though.

I don’t think this case is as straight forward as it sometimes is but I lean towards not going. In fact, unless I won’t hear a good reason to go I won’t be going.

 

[Pax_et_Caritas]

Yes.

One more thing I wanted to clear out is that the breakfast itself does not promote heresy because it’s basically 10 mins of prayers (“please God stay with XXX who is in hospital” etc.) followed by a breakfast. For this reason I wasn’t sure whether it’s wrong in this case or not. I was thinking that this could aid their conversion, but I’m not sure whether this is a strong argument. It will not be a place to discuss the Church and especially when being so outnumbered. The only way this could aid them is that this could establish some ties between their group and Catholics and get them interested in the Faith (as I said, they aren’t anti-catholic, they seem to be very open and I think they don’t really know what they are denying). I’m not sure is good enough though.

I don’t think this case is as straight forward as it sometimes is but I lean towards not going. In fact, unless I won’t hear a good reason to go I won’t be going.

Some Protestants actually are sincere and are searching for the truth. One benefit I can think of is if you were to get to know one or two of them at the breakfast and get their e-mail address.

Then you could try to draw them in - not by criticizing them - but by sending non offensive e-mails about the faith (something that they might find interesting) and try to get them to ask you questions. That actually might be a good plan.

If you decide to go, I would pray before hand and ask God to put you in contant with those who are most disposed to the truth.

 

[Sure]

This sounds like true ecumenism. The kind that we are called to practice. You can’t convert a person without getting to know him and love him. There must be a dialogue if you want some one to open up to the truth.

 

[tcraig]

Yes, but ecumenism should exist only to convert other religions to the One True Faith and I kinda fail see it in the breakfast (well, in fact it’s not there). I think that any other forms of ecumenisms, in which we are just trying to have a “better relationship with each other”, are wrong because they leads to religious indifference.

So how, exactly, do you propose to convert non-Catholics??

Conversion is a process, and not one that can be forced. You can’t be the Catholic equivalent of a Bible-thumper; that seldom works even for protestants.

Many protestants start an “internal” conversion (often unrecognized for what it actually is) by a dissatisfaction with the many unanswered questions and discrepancies they notice with protestant doctrines. They are searching, but don’t know yet that it is the Catholic faith that will satisfy them.

Given the fact that many protestants only come into contact with weak/indifferent Catholics (which was my experience when I was in the process of converting - I often joke that my biggest obstacle to joining the Church was all the lousy Catholics I met) then an example of a devout, prayerful Catholic who knows his faith may be a powerful aid to conversion in and of itself.

And you never know who might approach you, after they’ve gotten to know you, with “why do Catholics believe this” questions, that you will be able to provide good answers to.

Your good witness as a Catholic authentically living his faith may be a powerful conversion tactic all on its own.

 

[Genesis315]

It depends on the aim of the breakfast. If the point is to organize the destruction of Catholicism and the promotion of falsehood, then no, I would not go. If it is just a social gathering, then I might.

The best way to bring people to the full truth of the Gospel is to forge relationships with them. Maybe you could answer questions or misconceptions they have about Catholicism? If Catholics always fled from those who do not hold the Catholic faith, we’d be doomed.

Here’s a great article written before the Second Vatican Council (so it should be acceptable to everyone):

The Ordinary Ways of Convert Making

While it is written for seminarians, most of the advice is applicable to laymen as well.

As an aside, the participation in the Sillon was unacceptable because its goals were pretty much exactly the same as Freemasonry. If it was just a social gathering, St. Pius X would most assuredly encouraged Catholics to be witnesses to our faith:

1. But in order that the desired fruit may be derived from this apostolate and this zeal for teaching, and that Christ may be formed in all, be it remembered, Venerable Brethren, that no means is more efficacious than charity. “For the Lord is not in the earthquake” (III Kings xix., II) - it is vain to hope to attract souls to God by a bitter zeal. On the contrary, harm is done more often than good by taunting men harshly with their faults, and reproving their vices with asperity. True the Apostle exhorted Timothy: “Accuse, beseech, rebuke,” but he took care to add: “with all patience” (II. Tim.iv., 2). Jesus has certainly left us examples of this. “Come to me,” we find Him saying, “come to me all ye that labor and are burdened and I will refresh you” (Matth. xi., 28). And by those that labor and are burdened he meant only those who are slaves of sin and error. What gentleness was that shown by the Divine Master! What tenderness, what compassion towards all kinds of misery! Isaias has marvelously described His heart in the words: “I will set my spirit upon him; he shall not contend, nor cry out; the bruised reed he will not break, he will not extinguish the smoking flax” (Is. xlii., I, s.). This charity, “patient and kind” (I. Cor. xiii., 4.), will extend itself also to those who are hostile to us and persecute us. “We are reviled,” thus did St. Paul protest, “and we bless; we are persecuted and we suffer it; we are blasphemed and we entreat” (I. Cor., iv., 12, s.). They perhaps seem to be worse than they really are. Their associations with others, prejudice, the counsel, advice and example of others, and finally an ill advised shame have dragged them to the side of the impious; but their wills are not so depraved as they themselves would seek to make people believe. Who will prevent us from hoping that the flame of Christian charity may dispel the darkness from their minds and bring to them light and the peace of God? It may be that the fruit of our labors may be slow in coming, but charity wearies not with waiting, knowing that God prepares His rewards not for the results of toil but for the good will shown in it.

Bl. Pius IX essentially says the same thing here:

1. God forbid that the children of the Catholic Church should even in any way be unfriendly to those who are not at all united to us by the same bonds of faith and love. On the contrary, let them be eager always to attend to their needs with all the kind services of Christian charity, whether they are poor or sick or suffering any other kind of visitation. First of all, let them rescue them from the darkness of the errors into which they have unhappily fallen and strive to guide them back to Catholic truth and to their most loving Mother who is ever holding out her maternal arms to receive them lovingly back into her fold. Thus, firmly founded in faith, hope, and charity and fruitful in every good work, they will gain eternal salvation.

 

[Genesis315]

Now, would a pro life Catholic attend a breakfeast meeting with a group of abortion doctors, and militant “pro-choice” proponents?

See, I would agree if it were a pro-choice rally or organizational meeting. But if it is a social gathering where many pro-choice individuals may be, then it might be worth going.

 

[Genesis315]

Just wanted to add, Christ dined with sinners and Samaritans (essentially heretics in their day) with holy compassion–be the light of the world, don’t hide your candle under a basket.

 

[abucs]

Sure aren’t they brothers in Christ anyway ?
Who knows, you might learn something and they might learn something. As long as good will dominates i reckon it can’t be bad.

Maybe try taking a Catholic friend with you for the first occassion.

 

[latinmass]

Just wanted to add, Christ dined with sinners and Samaritans (essentially heretics in their day) with holy compassion–be the light of the world, don’t hide your candle under a basket.

This is often misquoted, Christ dined with sinners to teach them the good news. The sick need a doctor, not the healthy. The only reason to meet with those with heretical beliefs is to give them the good news, you can eats breakfast too though. All in charity. The news of the one Church is priority of any “ecumenical” event. If this is not the goal than it is just wrong.

 

[GandalfTheWhite]

This is often misquoted, Christ dined with sinners to teach them the good news. The sick need a doctor, not the healthy. The only reason to meet with those with heretical beliefs is to give them the good news, you can eats breakfast too though. All in charity. The news of the one Church is priority of any “ecumenical” event. If this is not the goal than it is just wrong.

Precisely. A religions gathering with non-catholics should only be done with the intention of bringing them the Truth.

I will go pray for it and maybe go there and see if God gives me or someone else (I won’t be the only Catholic there) the opportunity to witness (either during that breakfast or because of it). I will see how it goes and based on that I will decide whether to go next time or not. But I will still pray whether this is the right thing to do because I’m not yet decided.

 

[Sure]

Precisely. A religions gathering with non-catholics should only be done with the intention of bringing them the Truth.

I will go pray for it and maybe go there and see if God gives me or someone else (I won’t be the only Catholic there) the opportunity to witness (either during that breakfast or because of it). I will see how it goes and based on that I will decide whether to go next time or not. But I will still pray whether this is the right thing to do because I’m not yet decided.

However, the conversion might take years. It might take becoming friends with the person, discussing God, talking about prayer, talking about morality. Of course, always speaking the truth, but always seeking to draw the person into the Truth through charity.

 

[abucs]

I think with inter religious dialogue you have to be respectful and the worse thing i can experience is someone getting angry with me because i don’t see things their way.

So it’s better to only talk gently with someone who is interested in hearing from you, and go in small steps and only continue if they want you to. And remember to listen too as it’s a good opportunity to learn as well.

My advice would be to enjoy the food, make friends and don’t worry too much about converting anyone.

Like Sure says, these things can take a long time.

In the long run, perhaps the best advertisement to other people is a friendly, non threatening respectful witness.