Is this forum all about how to celebrate the Mass?

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I’d like to ask if we mainly focus on how we celebrate the mass in this forum? or are there more things outside the Mass?

Any time I come in to this specific forum to read, I always happen to read posts about the TLM.

If I were a non-Christian or non-Catholic and want to know more about Catholic, it would seem that I would go to this forum for the first visit. I would be very confusing to see how people arguing about TLM and today’s Mass (N.O ?), how people would say things about Vatican II, about the church building, etc…But there were nothing much for me to look for as a non-Christian / non-Catholic.

Thanks and have a good First Friday.
 
I totally agree with you and have voiced my concern many times about deliberately drawing a distinction, and that it is divisive and not constructive. But it appears the forum is staying, so it looks like we will just have to continue to chime in when those who feel they have a better mass than someone else, and gently remind them that we really are One Holy Catholic and Apostolic Faith. And division is just wrong.

----sigh----

~Liza
 
The Mass is the central act of worship which provides us with the Bread of Life. It is then crucial to our existence as Catholics…it’s value and importance cannot be underestimated.
 
The forum is about Traditional Catholicism.

The Traditional Latin Mass is the only major ‘topic’ of discussion between trads and mainstream catholics.

If a non-catholic was to come on this forum, I doubt it would scare him away. Most likely, since he wouldnt understand whats going on, he would simply click “Back” and go back to the Apologetics forum or whatever he was previously viewing.

However changing the name of Traditional Catholicism to anything else will not work.

I at least, cannot think of one name to call Traditional Catholicism…except well…

Traditional Catholicism.
 
gorman64 said:
The Mass is the central act of worship which provides us with the Bread of Life. It is then crucial to our existence as Catholics…it’s value and importance cannot be underestimated.
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I don’t dispute one single word of this statement. I do however have issue with drawing lines within our own Faith. It is wrong. Period.

~Liza
 
Missa_Solemnis said:
The forum is about Traditional Catholicism.

The Traditional Latin Mass is the only major ‘topic’ of discussion between trads and mainstream catholics.

If a non-catholic was to come on this forum, I doubt it would scare him away. Most likely, since he wouldnt understand whats going on, he would simply click “Back” and go back to the Apologetics forum or whatever he was previously viewing.

However changing the name of Traditional Catholicism to anything else will not work.

I at least, cannot think of one name to call Traditional Catholicism…except well…

Traditional Catholicism.
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How about putting all the various topics into one of the already established, and very well thought out, forums? I have yet to see one single topic that could not fit into another forum. There is no reason for the division.

~Liza
 
lizaanne said:
I totally agree with you and have voiced my concern many times about deliberately drawing a distinction, and that it is divisive and not constructive. ----sigh----

~Liza
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There IS a distinction in the view point of where the church is going, what “right” and what is “wrong” with the church today, the reason for the decay of Catholicism and how to fix it.

There is even division of thought with in the NO community …

On Liturgical issues…
Are “Gay” Masses right or wrong?
Clown Masses?
Liturgical dancing?
The “smells and bells” – distraction or inspiration?
Sacrifice of the Mass or Community meal?
Ideas on the Priesthood

On Ecumenical views
Salvation outside of the church?
Does the church modernize itself to be more like the world or do we stand alone in pointing out the world error ( even if not-PC)
Do we pray with pagans?
Are we the church that Christ established or can that subsist elsewhere?
How to handle dissenters

I could go on and on…

Thinking that we are all one big happy family pulling in the same direction is wishful thinking
 
devotus said:
There is even division of thought with in the NO community …

On Liturgical issues…
Are “Gay” Masses right or wrong?
Clown Masses?
Liturgical dancing?
The “smells and bells” – distraction or inspiration?
Sacrifice of the Mass or Community meal?
Ideas on the Priesthood

On Ecumenical views
Salvation outside of the church?
Does the church modernize itself to be more like the world or do we stand alone in pointing out the world error ( even if not-PC)
Do we pray with pagans?
Are we the church that Christ established or can that subsist elsewhere?
How to handle dissenters
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Show me one single topic above that would not fit in one of the other already established forums on this site. There is no reason for a separate forum that contributes to the division. I am not for one second suggesting we don’t talk about these things, they are all very relevant, but making a separate forum for “Traditional Catholics” is just wrong and divisive.

~Liza
 
Personally I think the main part is liturgical, that is what motivates and animates the majority of posters here. But it would be a disservice to ignore the many other aspects of traditional spirituality and practice.

Especially an in-depth discussion of the earlier common forms of praxis, asceticism and prayer. Although they may not be common today, and not required, they still have value. That is why I asked about fasting practices on another thread.

It may take some diligent research to uncover some of the older practices, but some Roman Catholics may still be doing them. I would be interested to learn more about those things.

Michael
 
I don’t dispute one single word of this statement. I do however have issue with drawing lines within our own Faith. It is wrong. Period.
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It probably appears wrong to you because you don’t see any problem. Traditionalists may disagree…but they see the problem…or at least parts of it.

I would take issue with the notion that these lines are drawn within the Faith…they are not. The lines are drawn because of the Faith in many, many instances.
 
Thank you all for responding so far.

I could understand why one likes to have TLM and the others don’t. It is mostly depending on when and where you were brought up to this world.

This forum could be call “Traditional Latin Mass” if this is the major topic of the forum.

To me, Catholicsm is not decaying as one of the posters said above. The change after Vatican II, in my opinion, is great for me and my family and for many people living in the third world countries who know nothing about Latin or who have never had any education.

In my language, we used to call “going to **watch **the mass”. The word is “watch” - not to participate. Why? because they didn’t understand. My grandma spent half of her life going to TLM and mostly recited the rosary duing the mass for she could not understand much.

We no longer use the word “watch” anymore because we now can participate with all the prayers and responses during the Mass.

Overall, the changes after Vatican II has brought more benifits to Catholics than damages. So, it is not decaying.

Thanks!
 
lizaanne said:
Show me one single topic above that would not fit in one of the other already established forums on this site. There is no reason for a separate forum that contributes to the division. I am not for one second suggesting we don’t talk about these things, they are all very relevant, but making a separate forum for “Traditional Catholics” is just wrong and divisive.

~Liza
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Traditionalist Catholic can be generalized to have common views on these subjects. We look at these issues differently – more along the lines of what has always been – Hold past popes teaching just as valid as a current pope ( because each are guardians of the truth ). We see Vatican II as not some “Super Dogma” that trumps all councils but a pastoral one that has yielded poor fruits either through it’ vague language or through its implementations

We also hold to practices of the faith that has fallen out of favor with mainstream Catholicism. This includes the TLM , rosary , scapulars, First Saturday devotion, Belief in the Eucharist etc

We also see ecumenism very differently than most … Some say through pre-Vatican II eyes – others may say as Vatican II really intended.

Our Parishes and Vocations are growing – especially among the young Catholics

Catholicism today is very splintered – in practice, language, and sadly belief

I wish it was not so…
 
lizaanne said:
Show me one single topic above that would not fit in one of the other already established forums on this site. There is no reason for a separate forum that contributes to the division. I am not for one second suggesting we don’t talk about these things, they are all very relevant, but making a separate forum for “Traditional Catholics” is just wrong and divisive.

~Liza
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Liza,

I agree that the threads that fall into the Novus Ordo vs. the TLM are annoying but when this forum didn’t exist, there were far many more of them. Personally, I don’t know why people can’t talk about the TLM and leave the NO out of it but it doesn’t seem that that can happen so I think here is better here where at least part of the conversation is actually on the TLM. Also, the TLM and traditionalists are approved by the Church so it’s just peachy to talk about it and some of these threads are actually informative.
 
Mea culpa. It appears we were typing at the same time but I took longer!
 
lizaanne said:
And division is just wrong.
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I beg to disagree. Division of itself is not wrong. “Do not think that I came to send peace upon earth: I came not to send peace, but the sword. For I came to set a man at variance against his father, and the daughter against her mother, and the daughter in law against her mother in law. And as a man’s enemies shall be they of his own household.” (Matt. 10:34-36)
lizaanne said:
How about putting all the various topics into one of the already established, and very well thought out, forums? I have yet to see one single topic that could not fit into another forum. There is no reason for the division.
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First, I believe most of the Traditionalist topics were in the “Liturgy and the Sacraments” forum, to the point of dominating that forum. If you look at the number of threads vs. posts in the “Traditional Catholicism” and “Liturgy and the Sacraments” forums, you will see that the “Traditional Catholicism” threads have a higher post-to-thread ratio; that means Traditionalist threads are very active and thus would always be at the top of the “Liturgy and the Sacraments” forum. Not very fair.

Second, we have sections to discuss non-Christian religions, Protestantism, and Eastern Orthodoxism, and so we really need to have a place where we are allowed to discuss sedevacantism.

Maria
 
water said:
Thank you all for responding so far.

To me, Catholicsm is not decaying as one of the posters said above. The change after Vatican II, in my opinion, is great for me and my family and for many people living in the third world countries who know nothing about Latin or who have never had any education.

Overall, the changes after Vatican II has brought more benifits to Catholics than damages. So, it is not decaying.

Thanks!
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I think the secretary of the Congregation for Divine Worship and the Sacraments, Archbishop Malcolm Ranjith disagrees with you.
Current failure
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Though noting positive results too, Archbishop Ranjith said that “the post-conciliar reform of the liturgy has not been able to achieve the expected goals of spiritual and missionary renewal in the Church.”
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“The churches have become empty,” the 59-year-old said. "Liturgical freewheeling has become the order of the day, and the true meaning and significance of that which is celebrated has been obscured.
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zenit.org/english/
The full article was on Feb 26. For some reason, the link only works to the homepage.
 
water said:
To me, Catholicsm is not decaying as one of the posters said above. The change after Vatican II, in my opinion, is great for me and my family and for many people living in the third world countries who know nothing about Latin or who have never had any education.

In my language, we used to call “going to **watch **the mass”. The word is “watch” - not to participate. Why? because they didn’t understand. My grandma spent half of her life going to TLM and mostly recited the rosary duing the mass for she could not understand much.

Overall, the changes after Vatican II has brought more benifits to Catholics than damages. So, it is not decaying.
Click to expand...
You are probably right.
Most Catholics live in the Third World, but English-speaking Catholics with internet connections tend to live in the West.

For us the church is decaying, and there is no point trying to pretend that something isn’t very badly wrong. Going to back to the Traditional Liturgy and traditional disciplines is, to my mind, a simplistic solution, and I don’t think it is tha answer. However I think it has part of the answer within it.

I am happy to accept that in your culture Vatican II has been a great success.
 
Malcolm_McLean said:
You are probably right.
Most Catholics live in the Third World, but English-speaking Catholics with internet connections tend to live in the West.

For us the church is decaying, and there is no point trying to pretend that something isn’t very badly wrong. Going to back to the Traditional Liturgy and traditional disciplines is, to my mind, a simplistic solution, and I don’t think it is tha answer. However I think it has part of the answer within it.

I am happy to accept that in your culture Vatican II has been a great success.
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Yes, thank you. I am glad we’ve had mass in my language.
 
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