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water
Guest
Thanks for the link. I will read it.
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Hesychios
Guest
When I was growing up we said we would hear Mass. Same kind of thing, I’d say.
But we didn’t look up much, honestly. I can still remember when I was small, and the priest elevated the Host, I tried to see what was going on and my mother smacked me. I didn’t get to see it for years (except in books), until I was brave enough to peek and risk the consequences! I really thought that I was being disrepectful, but I was so curious!
I realize that this sounds quite rigid, but I don’t blame my parents, that was the nature of personal piety in those days. Not everyone was so extreme, but it was common.
Michael
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m134e5
Guest
This particular section is about traditional Catholicism, so the liturgy is a particularly big topic here.
As to the forum in general…many people come here to find like-minded people who share their frustrations with many liturgies that happen today. Many of today’s liturgies are watered down, politically correct, and in some cases even heretical. People who are frustrated with that come here to vent and to ask for advice. Hopefully, the people who ask for advice take the advice they are given.
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m134e5
Guest
This particular section is about traditional Catholicism, so the liturgy is a particularly big topic here.
As to the forum in general…many people come here to find like-minded people who share their frustrations with many liturgies that happen today. Many of today’s liturgies are watered down, politically correct, and in some cases even heretical. People who are frustrated with that come here to vent and to ask for advice. Hopefully, the people who ask for advice take the advice they are given. When someone teaches heresy, or waters down the liturgy, or bashes the Church, we are justifiably offended. At the same time, whining and going into churches with a notebook like they WANT somebody to do something wrong in the liturgy- so they can write it down and feel justified when they know they are right and somebody else is wrong- is the wrong attitude to take. It will not inspire conversions or vocations. It will not make saints- out of anybody. The almost militant attitudes in some political circles are what have driven me against them. The almost militant attitude of those who support abortion would have driven me against their cause- if I didn’t have the common sense to see their errors. The peaceful, charitable protest at the March for Life (well, some of the protestors were just yelling and making demands like that’s really going to make people change their mind- but from what I could tell, they were rare).
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Brennan_Doherty
Guest
I agree that we are perhaps experiencing the greatest division among Catholics since the Arian heresy (and perhaps even more so). Fr. Brian Harrison’s article in the book “The Reform of the Reform?” by Fr. Thomas Kocik (Ignatius Press) I believe is pertinent here. Naturally, I recommend reading the entire essay if possible. A good portion of the article in the book appears here:
http://www.thechristianactivist.com/vol8/V8Crisis.htm
Here is an excerpt (italics in original):
"In short, what we have witnessed in these thirty years has been a tragic polarization and fragmentation among Catholics, in regard to the liturgy. But while so many have been drawing swords either to defend or attack the post-conciliar changes in the rite of Mass, not many seem to have noticed that the very existence of such tension, bitterness, and division is about the most eloquent possible evidence that the liturgical reform introduced in the name of Vatican Council II has been seriously defective. What both liberals and conservatives often forget is the fact that, in the words of Saint Thomas Aquinas, "The Eucharist is the sacrament of the Church’s unity.
… The implications of this profound truth for the post-Vatican II liturgical reform seem to me very serious. If one of the main purposes of the eucharistic liturgy is to “renew, strengthen, and deepen” [CCC 1396] the unity of all Catholics in the one Mystical Body, then what are we to think of a reform that, whatever its positive results may have been, has also managed to provoke more discord, mutual alienation, and disunity than any officially introduced liturgical innovation in the entire history of the Church?
… Now, can the new rites be said to have promoted “unity” [Sacrosanctum Concilium (SC) no. 1] among believers, when we see more strife and disunity than ever in connection with the liturgy? It may be true that Catholics and Protestants now feel less divided than before, but not in the way the Council Fathers expected. They hoped that liturgical reform would help Protestants to become more Catholic in their thinking; but all that has happened is that Catholics have demonstrably become more Protestant in their thinking! The Vatican II Fathers, as we have just heard, hoped that a revised liturgy would be a means of “help[ing] to call all mankind into the Church’s fold” [SC, no. 1]. But how could anyone claim that this hope has been even partially fulfilled when in most countries rates of conversion to Catholicism have plummeted to an all-time low, priests and religious have abandoned their holy vocations in tens of thousands, innumerable other Catholics have given up the faith altogether, and of those who do still profess it, fewer than ever now attend Mass regularly?"
(pp. 154-157)
God bless!
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BobP123
Guest
On the contrary, there are many non-Catholics who very much care or are just plain curious to see how the traditional Catholicism or TLM movement plays out. For example, we can thank Agatha Christie, a non-Catholic, for petitioning Pope Paul VI to keep the old Mass alive. And now you have some Orthodox churches interested in the SSPX reconciliation while assessing their own reconciliation with Rome. Here in the midwest we had a recent TV show (read mostly non-Catholic audience) depicting the strength of the growing TLM movement. Many commented favorably about the show and are happy for us.
Or is it because of all the scandal (child molestation, gay movement inside the Church, etc.) that has caused the non-Catholics to keep abreast of the traditionalist movement? What do you think?
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MTD
Guest
You are correct in saying it was personal piety to bow one’s head at the elevation; it was an unfortunate and unliturgical practice spread among the faithful. It was not based on the traditional Mass at all. The elevation of the Host was instituted for the precise purpose of the congregation seeing and adoring It.
Huh?!
Maria
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Hesychios
Guest
I agree. I am aware that the lay practice of averting the eyes was actually counter to the original purpose of elevating the Host!
Interestingly, in the Elizabethan church of England the elevation of the Host was banned, but in the royal chapel the practice continued 
if I remember the accounts correctly…I think that it is good to discuss these things, education for the sake of a healthier and stronger church.
Michael
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gorman64
Guest
This is always interesting…the universal Church…one Faith…is splintered in belief? This is one of the four marks of the Church.
Some of the worst offenders (pro-abortion, pro-artificial birth control “Catholics”), many of these people who are very clearly heretics…call me a schismatic.
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Missa_Solemnis
Guest
Same here…
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Titus
Guest
That’s pure hypocrisy on their part gorman64 and Missa Solemnis. And they are inaccurate, I would imagine, unless you are a priest of SSPX?
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BobP123
Guest
Could you back up your statement? Where are they inaccurate? Where are they hypocritical? And do you have an axe to grind against the SSPX or has your bishop’s mouthpiece against them been stuck in your ears?
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Hesychios
Guest
It seem to be so. I think relativism is creeping into the church.
Ideally that would not be the case. I just read an interesting post related to this across the hall. I was quite surprised by what it said. If the focus remains “believe anything as long as you agree to come under the Pope” the church will eventually self destruct.
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Michael*
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MTD
Guest
Please don’t get quite so excited, BobP123. I believe Titus forgot to punctuate his sentence correctly, and so it gave you the wrong impression. The people he’s claiming are hypocritical and inaccurate are the pro-abortion, etc. Catholics who call gorman64 and Missa Solemnis schismatics. Am I not right, Titus?
(I think the sentence was meant to be: That’s pure hypocrisy on their part, gorman64 and Missa Solemnis.)
Maria
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thechrismyster
Guest
when all you have in your belt is a hammer, every problem appears to be a nail.
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Hesychios
Guest
W
water
Guest
English is not my mother-language, you could help me say more clearly what you meant
otherwise, your wording sounds like Latin to me. 
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Titus
Guest
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Jean_Anthony
Guest
This thread is now closed. Thank you to all who participated.
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