Is this heretical?

  • Thread starter Thread starter JTBT
  • Start date Start date
Status
Not open for further replies.
J

JTBT

Guest
Perhaps God did not know that they would choose to eat the apple. Perhaps our free will is truly free to choose a path that is unknown until it is chosen. God may know where every path leads, but perhaps, out of love, he made us in His image in that we create eternal realities through our choices.
Click to expand...
is the statement above a heretical statement in the Catholic Church. I am took the quote from another thread on this website.
 
bilop said:
I would think yes, because it denies that God is Omniscient. But, I’m not sure.

God Bless
Click to expand...
it states that God knows all paths, and where they lead, this doesn’t deny Omniscients.
 
JTBT said:
it states that God knows all paths, and where they lead, this doesn’t deny Omniscients.
Click to expand...
But, unless I’m missing something, it denies that God knew which path Eve would choose.

God Bless
 
bilop said:
But, unless I’m missing something, it denies that God knew which path Eve would choose.

God Bless
Click to expand...
true it is saying that God did not know which way Eve choose, but is it logical to say that God knew the choice before the choice existed?
 
JTBT said:
true it is saying that God did not know which way Eve choose, but is it logical to say that God knew the choice before the choice existed?
Click to expand...
If God is outside of time there can be no before or after. I do not see any teaching which is contrary to the Church so I see no heresy?
 
I would think that it is not so much heretical as confined by human thinking. To God time is irrelevant. He simply is–the essence of being. Time as we know it is a function of this universe which He created. Everything, past, present, and future, is right now to God. This is hard for us to understand, because we do not share this view of time. So it is not so much that GOd knew before they chose, it, but that He knew because it is.
 
Debra_C said:
I would think that it is not so much heretical as confined by human thinking.
Click to expand...
ok so, what you are saying is from the human POV the above statement is correct. But from God’s point of view all things in time are currently happening.
Do you think timelessness is an attribute of only The Father or of all three members of the Trinity? The reason I say this is based on the verse
Matthew 24:36
But about that day and hour no one knows, neither the angels of heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father.
Click to expand...
What do you all think?
 
Perhaps God did not know that they would choose to eat the apple. Perhaps our free will is truly free to choose a path that is unknown until it is chosen. God may know where every path leads, but perhaps, out of love, he made us in His image in that we create eternal realities through our choices.

I think it is suggesting heresy, in that it suggests that God did not know. Our free will is truly free. God is not the author of our actions, we are, but He does know what we will do. If you’re up for some philosophical reading on the subject, try Boethius’s “The Consolation of Philosophy”.
 
Can God create a stone so heavy that even he couldnt lift it?

this one, others, they have been around YEARS.
 
OK, I’ll weigh in.
There are portions of Scripture where God speaks as if our actions have eternal consequences: “choose life”, repent, forgive, etc etc.
There are also portions of Scripture where God is said to “test” as if he seeks to know something. In Gen 22 “God put Abraham to the test”(22:1) and after Abraham passed the test what does the “angel of the Lord” say? Does He say “I knew you’d do it all along!” No. He says " I know now how devoted you are to the God since you did not withhold from me…" (22:12) And goes on further to reiterate,“I swear…says the Lord that because you acted as you did…I will bless you.”
And so one has to wonder how we can reconcile an omniscient God with God apparently seeking to know something. One way of reconciling this apparent paradox is to suggest that the knowledge God seeks does not yet exist: it doesnt exist in time nor does it exist in eternity. It is an imperfect solution to be sure, but it is one attempt at reconciling the paradox.
One thing that is clear is clear that no one has confidently or definitively declared the OP “heretical” with anything but speculation.
 
JTBT said:
ok so, what you are saying is from the human POV the above statement is correct. But from God’s point of view all things in time are currently happening.
Do you think timelessness is an attribute of only The Father or of all three members of the Trinity? The reason I say this is based on the verse

Matthew 24:36
But about that day and hour no one knows, neither the angels of heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father.

What do you all think?
Click to expand...
The real answer is the Trinity is a mystery to man, however you might want to consider the concept the “time” is irrelevant but the condition of man could trigger the event. What is the vital condition? Again known only to God
 
Philthy said:
OK, I’ll weigh in.
There are portions of Scripture where God speaks as if our actions have eternal consequences: “choose life”, repent, forgive, etc etc.
There are also portions of Scripture where God is said to “test” as if he seeks to know something. In Gen 22 “God put Abraham to the test”(22:1) and after Abraham passed the test what does the “angel of the Lord” say? Does He say “I knew you’d do it all along!” No. He says " I know now how devoted you are to the God since you did not withhold from me…" (22:12) And goes on further to reiterate,“I swear…says the Lord that because you acted as you did…I will bless you.”
And so one has to wonder how we can reconcile an omniscient God with God apparently seeking to know something. One way of reconciling this apparent paradox is to suggest that the knowledge God seeks does not yet exist: it doesnt exist in time nor does it exist in eternity. It is an imperfect solution to be sure, but it is one attempt at reconciling the paradox.
One thing that is clear is clear that no one has confidently or definitively declared the OP “heretical” with anything but speculation.
Click to expand...
Philthy,

While the responses definitely haven’t been confident or definite, it is quite certain that denying God’s omniscience in this way is quite similar to the way open theism conceives of God’s knowledge. The traditional God of monotheism is quite incompatible with the contemporary idea of open theism.

But we’re not calling the OP heretical, the question is whether we ought to judge the proposition as heresy. It would seem so.

-Rob
 
RobNY said:
Philthy,

While the responses definitely haven’t been confident or definite, it is quite certain that denying God’s omniscience in this way is quite similar to the way open theism conceives of God’s knowledge. The traditional God of monotheism is quite incompatible with the contemporary idea of open theism.

But we’re not calling the OP heretical, the question is whether we ought to judge the proposition as heresy. It would seem so.

-Rob
Click to expand...
I dont think the OP denied God’s omniscience. Perhaps you could point out where such a claim is made. Is there a “standard” definition of omniscience?
In addition could you please comment on the verses from Gen 22 which seem to indicate God responding to an acquired knowledge of Abrahams faith. How do you reconcile such verses?
 
Texas_Roofer said:
Such a stone would be too large to have a place to rest, thus “lift” would have no meaning?
Click to expand...
The question is a colorful way of saying “Can God cannot?” or “I can and I cannot at the same time.” It has literally no meaning. It’s the same thing as claiming that you can enter a room while staying outside the room and insisting you are using the literal definitions of all the words involved at all points in the claim. Just because you can put words together in a certain way doesn’t mean that way has anything to do with reality, because words don’t have to follow the law of noncontradiction.
 
BlaineTog said:
because words don’t have to follow the law of noncontradiction.
Click to expand...
if you want anyone to understand what you are saying; your words have to follow the law of noncontradition. Just by typing your response you have already proven that point.
 
Texas_Roofer said:
The real answer is the Trinity is a mystery to man, however you might want to consider the concept the “time” is irrelevant but the condition of man could trigger the event. What is the vital condition? Again known only to God
Click to expand...
you make a good point, but that doesn’t address the issue that is seems the Father knows something that the Son does not.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top