Is this idea stupidity personified or not?

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At Mass we Catholics believe that we partake in the same sacrifice at Calvary as the Christians of that day did. We believe this because Christ ascended into Heaven. Since Heaven is not bound by space or time Christ temporal sacrifice covers the sins of all people past, present or future right?

If this reasoning is accurate I wish to know if the following is accurate as well. I was just wondering could I pray to myself then? If Heaven is not bound by space and time that means everybody who will be in Heaven is technically already in Heaven right?

So if I am destined to be in Heaven, then technically I am already in Heaven, that means I can pray to myself for intercession.

Am I wrong?
(p.s. this is summer vacation for me and I can see that I have way to much time on my hands)
 
At Mass we Catholics believe that we partake in the same sacrifice at Calvary as the Christians of that day did. We believe this because Christ ascended into Heaven. Since Heaven is not bound by space or time Christ temporal sacrifice covers the sins of all people past, present or future right?

If this reasoning is accurate I wish to know if the following is accurate as well. I was just wondering could I pray to myself then? If Heaven is not bound by space and time that means everybody who will be in Heaven is technically already in Heaven right?

So if I am destined to be in Heaven, then technically I am already in Heaven, that means I can pray to myself for intercession.

Am I wrong?
(p.s. this is summer vacation for me and I can see that I have way to much time on my hands)
You know, I have thought about this myself. Not exactly that I could pray to MYSELF, that’s a new one for me. But I often wondered if our friends and relatives in heaven don’t miss us because to them we are already there. :hmmm:
 
This is going to be a cool thread - thanks OP!

OK just off the top of my head …

“Hail Mary Full of Grace …”

“Let it be done to me according to your word.”

I think that heaven listened to this particular conversation very intently. I think that God is omniscient, but the Angelic beings are not. Until this conversation occurred, until she uttered these words, the Word was not made flesh. There is a definite distinction in the pre-incarnate Word and the Incarnate Word of God. That distinction is both in time and space, in the spirit and the physical.

So I think the idea in the OP might be, maybe, possibly, could be mistaken. I also give latitude that I am possibly mistaken as well.
 
I’ve thought of this as well, and the issue I see with it is the arrogance of assuming that I was going to be in Heaven. If The Church taught OSAS then this would make more sense, but she doesn’t, so I’m not comfortable with it.
 
Ok, let’s say you pray to yourself for help getting thru a tough time in your life. Wouldn’t the you in heaven just blow you off and say “if I could do it, you can do it”. Would you have any sympathy for yourself? I know I wouldn’t. 😉
 
Why would you even need to pray to yourself for intercession? Do you not already know to pray for yourself? Do you need to remind yourself, or what?
 
HAHAHA, that’s true! And if you went to Jesus and said “uh…the me back on earth would like me to help him find his keys” would he give you ‘the look’? :ehh:
 
Why would you even need to pray to yourself for intercession? Do you not already know to pray for yourself? Do you need to remind yourself, or what?
The whole point of praying to the Saints is that they have been perfected in Chirst. So why not ask a perfect me to help a imperfect me.
 
I’ve thought of this as well, and the issue I see with it is the arrogance of assuming that I was going to be in Heaven. If The Church taught OSAS then this would make more sense, but she doesn’t, so I’m not comfortable with it.
Your right it is arrogant, but I’m working on the assumption that my faith in the future will be greater or at least not less than it is today. God may not agree but I think that if I were to die right now I would have a descent shot at getting into those Golden Gates in the sky. After a fair bit of suffering while passing through purgation first of course.
 
I think it would be appropriate to say that the Saints in Heaven are not bound by the past, but ARE bound by the future, whereas the Divine is not. That is, the Sacrifice of Jesus on the Cross was present at the table with Melchizedek and Abraham, just as it was present at the Last Supper, just as it is present at any of today’s Sacrifices. However, the Saints in Heaven are only present in Heaven AFTER they are allowed the Beatific Vision, according to the Time of the Universe. So, you are not in Heaven, chronologically, until you are dead, and placed in Heaven.
 
Your right it is arrogant, but I’m working on the assumption that my faith in the future will be greater or at least not less than it is today. God may not agree but I think that if I were to die right now I would have a descent shot at getting into those Golden Gates in the sky. After a fair bit of suffering while passing through purgation first of course.
But if you’re not there maybe one of the other Saints will take a message 😃

It would be nice if they would tell you, right? “Umm, dude? We haven’t seen you around up here. Maybe you should clean up your act a little more.”
 
This is going to be a cool thread - thanks OP!

OK just off the top of my head …

“Hail Mary Full of Grace …”

“Let it be done to me according to your word.”

I think that heaven listened to this particular conversation very intently. I think that God is omniscient, but the Angelic beings are not. Until this conversation occurred, until she uttered these words, the Word was not made flesh. There is a definite distinction in the pre-incarnate Word and the Incarnate Word of God. That distinction is both in time and space, in the spirit and the physical.

So I think the idea in the OP might be, maybe, possibly, could be mistaken. I also give latitude that I am possibly mistaken as well.
So you are not sure.

1 Sam 28:19
Moreover the LORD will also deliver Israel with you into the hand of the Philistines. And tomorrow you and your sons will be with me. The LORD will also deliver the army of Israel into the hand of the Philistines.”
King Saul goes to a median to get in contact with the recently deceased Samuel. And we can see from scripture that the recently deceased Samuel not ony knew of the current events taking place on Earth at the time but also foretold of a future event as well.
 
Yeah. It’s not exactly that the sacrifice is some sort of time travel.

It is the essentially SAME sacrifice, but not in terms of Time, because time is an accident. We aren’t “going back in time to Calvary”…

Rather, the same sacrifice is presented to us because the High Priest is the same, the Victim is the same, and the intent is the same…but the MANNER is different. Then it was bloody, now it is unbloody.

But Christ’s body and blood are formally seperated through the double consecration…but they just don’t actually substantially seperate anymore because since the Ressurection they are inseperable.

The sacrifice of the Mass is not only a relative sacrifice, because to be a relative sacrifice, to relate itself to the sacrifice of the Cross from which it draws all it’s power, it must be an absolute sacrifice in itself, if only in order to draw the relation.

The Catholic Encyclopedia,
refers the absolute moment of the sacrifice to the (active) “sacramental mystical slaying”, and the relative to the (passive) “separation of Body and Blood”, it has indeed made the “two-edged sword” of the double consecration the cause from which the double character of the Mass as an absolute (real in itself) and relative sacrifice proceeds. We have an absolute sacrifice, for the Victim is – not indeed in specie propria, but in specie aliena – sacramentally slain, we have also a relative sacrifice, since the sacramental separation of Body and Blood represents perceptibly the former shedding of Blood on the Cross.
So it is through the absolute real sacrifice in the sacramental seperation of Body and Blood, that the sacrifice re-calls relatively the one Sacrifice of the Cross from which it draws it’s power.

The Encyclopedia also goes on to say:
While this view meets every requirement of the metaphysical nature of the Sacrifice of the Mass, we do not think it right to reject offhand the somewhat more elaborate theory of Lessius instead of utilizing it in the spirit of the traditional view for the extension of the idea of a “mystical slaying”. Lessius (De perfect. moribusque div. XII, xiii) goes beyond the old explanation by adding the not untrue observation that the intrinsic force of the double consecration would have as result an actual and true shedding of blood on the altar, if this were not per accidens impossible in consequence of the impassibility of the transfigured Body of Christ. Since ex vi verborum the consecration of the bread makes really present only the Body, and the consecration of the Chalice only the Blood, the tendency or the double consecration is towards a formal exclusion of the Blood from the Body. The mystical slaying thus approaches nearer to a real destruction and the absolute sacrificial moment of the Mass receives an important confirmation. In the light of this view, the celebrated statement of St. Gregory of Nazianzus becomes of special importance (“Ep. clxxi, ad Amphil.” in P. G., XXXVII, 282): “Hesitate not to pray for me . . . when with bloodless stroke [anaimakto tome] thou separatest [temnes] the Body and Blood of the Lord; having speech as a sword [phonen echon to Xiphos].”
So it is not merely a relative representation that recalls the former sacrifice relatively…but is a real and absolute sacrifice in itself, and through THAT fact is related to and recalls the former sacrifice from which it draws it’s power.

It is compared in the encyclopedia to the Sun and the planets. The planets only take reflect light from the Sun…but they are still real objects, real globes, and must be to even do the reflecting. They aren’t just instantiations of the Sun, but exist in themselves as real heavenly bodies, if only in order to reflect the Sun’s light.

The eucharistic sacrifice preformed on the altars around the world each day indeed only draws it’s merit and light from re-presenting that of the Cross. But they have to be asbsolute sacrifices in themselves to be able to do that reflecting. They aren’t merely some sort of direct inserting of the Cross into a new time and place, but indirect, through their own absolute sacrifice. Even as the planets reflecting the sun’s light are not merely instances of the sun…but are real objects reflecting the selfsame LIGHT of the sun.
 
Ok, let’s say you pray to yourself for help getting thru a tough time in your life. Wouldn’t the you in heaven just blow you off and say “if I could do it, you can do it”. Would you have any sympathy for yourself? I know I wouldn’t. 😉
What someone who has been perfected by Christ fails to show sympathy.:dts:

Perish the thought.
 
Yeah. It’s not exactly that the sacrifice is some sort of time travel.

It is the essentially SAME sacrifice, but not in terms of Time, because time is an accident. We aren’t “going back in time to Calvary”…

Rather, the same sacrifice is presented to us because the High Priest is the same, the Victim is the same, and the intent is the same…but the MANNER is different. Then it was bloody, now it is unbloody.

But Christ’s body and blood are formally seperated through the double consecration…but they just don’t actually substantially seperate anymore because since the Ressurection they are inseperable.

The sacrifice of the Mass is not only a relative sacrifice, because to be a relative sacrifice, to relate itself to the sacrifice of the Cross from which it draws all it’s power, it must be an absolute sacrifice in itself, if only in order to draw the relation.

The Catholic Encyclopedia,

So it is through the absolute real sacrifice in the sacramental seperation of Body and Blood, that the sacrifice re-calls relatively the one Sacrifice of the Cross from which it draws it’s power.

The Encyclopedia also goes on to say:

So it is not merely a relative representation that recalls the former sacrifice relatively…but is a real and absolute sacrifice in itself, and through THAT fact is related to and recalls the former sacrifice from which it draws it’s power.

It is compared in the encyclopedia to the Sun and the planets. The planets only take reflect light from the Sun…but they are still real objects, real globes, and must be to even do the reflecting. They aren’t just instantiations of the Sun, but exist in themselves as real heavenly bodies, if only in order to reflect the Sun’s light.

The eucharistic sacrifice preformed on the altars around the world each day indeed only draws it’s merit and light from re-presenting that of the Cross. But they have to be asbsolute sacrifices in themselves to be able to do that reflecting. They aren’t merely some sort of direct inserting of the Cross into a new time and place, but indirect, through their own absolute sacrifice. Even as the planets reflecting the sun’s light are not merely instances of the sun…but are real objects reflecting the selfsame LIGHT of the sun.
Hi friend your post really confused me. Please dumb it down in the future for the common folk.🙂
 
It’s one of those time-travel-like mind benders, that’s for sure. However, it seems that Eternity and Time-and-Space are somehow separated and that we cannot be in both states at once. Time-and-Space is confining. We are created “in” Time-and-Space and are confined here until we die, so we don’t “enter” Eternity until that time.

But, the problem is that “in” Eternity there is no passage of time and it is impossible for our finite minds to comprehend Eternity, so we cannot understand the state of being we call Eternity. Even our language betrays our confinement, like when we say that we “enter” Eternity or are “in” Heaven. You cannot “enter” the eternal or be “in” a something with no spacial bounds. It’s a mystery, but I’m certain that I cannot pray to myself. Besides, I’m likely to be “in” (there I go again) Purgatory for a “while” anyway.:whacky:
 
So you are not sure.

1 Sam 28:19

King Saul goes to a median to get in contact with the recently deceased Samuel. And we can see from scripture that the recently deceased Samuel not ony knew of the current events taking place on Earth at the time but also foretold of a future event as well.
I am confident that I am correct, just as I always am confident that I am correct because I am a little bit of a jerk like that :p. But I do have poor argumentation/apologetic skills, and I also think it’s good to leave open the possibility of being wrong incase I have to eat my poorly written words.

I do think that the saints around the heavenly throne are not traversing time and that any saint that is there goes there at a given time once and only once and until that time is had, it hasn’t happened nor will it repeat itself.

If your idea is true it leaves an open loop that self defeats. If you can go back in time to alter your own actions, that could affect what time or how you enter heaven where you can go back to help yourself the first time you helped yourself would be negated so you could never do it. Nope, it doesn’t work like that.

It is the age old arguments of the impossibility of time travel. If you go back in time and thwart the making of the time machine what would happen to you? You’d cease to exist in the present that is the future of the time making machine guy. You can’t be both existent and non-existent at the same time. But I have sat through some pretty bad elementary school plays where I really wished I could be, or be and not be, however that works.
 
So it is not merely a relative representation that recalls the former sacrifice relatively…but is a real and absolute sacrifice in itself, and through THAT fact is related to and recalls the former sacrifice from which it draws it’s power.

It is compared in the encyclopedia to the Sun and the planets. The planets only take reflect light from the Sun…but they are still real objects, real globes, and must be to even do the reflecting. They aren’t just instantiations of the Sun, but exist in themselves as real heavenly bodies, if only in order to reflect the Sun’s light.

The eucharistic sacrifice preformed on the altars around the world each day indeed only draws it’s merit and light from re-presenting that of the Cross. But they have to be asbsolute sacrifices in themselves to be able to do that reflecting. They aren’t merely some sort of direct inserting of the Cross into a new time and place, but indirect, through their own absolute sacrifice. Even as the planets reflecting the sun’s light are not merely instances of the sun…but are real objects reflecting the selfsame LIGHT of the sun.
So your saying the sacrifice at mass is a reflection of the the sacrifice at calvary.
 
I don’t like the idea. I mean, imagine a world in which your concept does in fact take place and praying to oneself for intercession from Heaven is a common practice. Now imagine you praying to yourself, but getting back no answer. Now ***that ***wouldn’t be a good sign! :eek: 😛
 
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