Is this Liturgical Abuse?

[MichCath]

Hello,

There are some things going on at masses I’ve been to, and I’m not totally sure they are liturgically sound. But I’m also not sure if I’m overreacting because my home parish is more traditional than most.

These are things I have seen at several different parishes with different priests within my Diocese.

They are all very extremely common in my diocese. There are also churches that have done *Every single one * of these things!

Here it is:

-Presider’s chair in the assembly
-reason given by priest: “I want to be connected with my people.”

-Gloria not said or sung at all (during Ordinary time).
reason given by priest: “should be saved for special occasions.”

-Profession of faith not recited or sung
reason given by priest: “we tried it, but not everyone knew it.”

Priest not washing hands during Eucharistic prayer and not adding water to the wine.
reason given by priest: “we want to keep it simple.”

-Priest joins hands with congregation in the front row during Lord’s Prayer.
(at this point, I stopped asking questions)
I can live with the congregation holding hands (actually, I enjoy this practice, but I don’t think the priest should do it).

-Also, the priest doesn’t say the benediction in the middle of the Lord’s Prayer ("deliver us lord, from every evil, etc…) He doesn’t say it before or afterward, either.

-Priest encourages “young people” to come and stand around the altar during the consecration.

-Priest takes communion last, by going through the communion line with the other EM’s. Usually, not even “last,” just the first of the EM’s at the end.

-Variation 1: Priest takes communion last (serves himself), but has the Deacon go through the communion line with the other EM’s.

-Variation 2: Priest takes communion first (serves himself), but makes the Deacon go through the communion line with the EM’s at the end.

Very popular: Communal pennance services. However, they are billed as reconcilation services. Just go to the service, and you’re forgiven. I had always thought that a pennance service meant that if you go to Confession just before (a week or so), then you can go to the service, and not need to do an individual pennance.

-Seminarians have given homilies (at least they were about vocations).

Very popular: The priest has the Pastoral Associate/Administrator give the homily. Occasionally, a Pastoral Administrator (particularly a woman or married man) has preached the gospel, although this doesn’t happen as often.

A very well-founded rumor has floated that the Bishop may soon put the brakes on the last two issues, which has angered a few priests I personally know.

Two of these priests have also been open advocates of women priests, and are extremely defensive when dealing with liturgical issues.

In other words, it’s not just as easy as going to them and saying “are you doing this right,” because they’ve had nearly twenty years to have the perfect excuse for almost every concern thrown at them.

OK, that’s it. Am I overreacting? Is this liturgical abuse, or is it technically allowed, and I’m just used to a more conservative style?

 

[Deacon_Ed]

Yes, these are all abuses. While most are of the relatively minor variety, the combination is significant. This should be brought to the attention of the local bishop.

Deacon Ed

 

[msproule]

Yes, all of these are abuses. I though I had it bad…

(I am from one of the lesser abuse-ridden areas of Michigan.)

 

[gelsbern]

I don’t know about the seminarians giving homilies being an abuse, but the rest certainly seem to be.

Were the seminarians transitional deacons?

 

[MrS]

MichCath:

Hello,

OK, that’s it. Am I overreacting? Is this liturgical abuse, or is it technically allowed, and I’m just used to a more conservative style?

hello back at you… which diocese are you in, if I can ask…

 

[Eileen_T]

If your Bishop doesn’t take action, you might need to send the pope an email with your list.

Anyone know how to do this?

All I could come up with is office@net.va at Internet Office of the Holy See: vatican.va/faq/index_en.htm

or, Francis Arinze, Cardinal, Prefect of the Congregation for Divine Worship and the Discipline of the Sacraments
vatican.va/roman_curia/congregations/ccdds/

 

[Jabronie]

Call your diocese office. Do not be afraid to press the issue. These priests are making a mockery of our beatiful liturgy. Do you have any friends in your parish that you could convince to come with you to some church board meetings?

This is the kind of thing that would fire me up enough to make me stand outside of the church after Mass and hand out pamphets on liturgical abuse.

 

[Toni]

MrS:

hello back at you… which diocese are you in, if I can ask…

sounds like Saginaw when Bishop Utner was alive and Bishop Carlson is attempting to clean up. But good question What is the diocese?

 

[rwoehmke]

Jabronie:

Call your diocese office. Do not be afraid to press the issue. These priests are making a mockery of our beatiful liturgy. Do you have any friends in your parish that you could convince to come with you to some church board meetings? This is the kind of thing that would fire me up enough to make me stand outside of the church after Mass and hand out pamphets on liturgical abuse.

I don’t recommend either of these actions. Our parish had only two abuses that set some fellow parishioners off. One of the priests would step down into the front transverse aisles (just below the steps to the altar platform and move back and forth about ten or twelve feet while giving the homily. The other priest would come down and shake the hands of a few people at the kiss of peace.

A group came to the Liturgy Committee to complain. Father reminded them he was pastor and sent them packing. They then placed copies of the Sacramentum publication under the windshield of all the cars after one Mass after being told by the pastor not to do so. Now we have signs around the parking lot forbidding any leafletting without prior permission. It ended up thier actions were not taken kindly by the vast majority of the parish members. They were labeled as “nuts” and acomplished zip.

I believe that one speaks as an individual to the priest, if he brushes you off go to the Bishop. If he doesn’t act go to the Nuncio and the Vatican. You have done your duty. Agitating in the parish community seems to do more harm than good if the abuses are minor. The list provided by the OP are far beyond minor.

 

[mspencer]

I am amazed that there is a diocese where these are common practices. I thought the worst dioceses were being straightened out too. I hope you can find a parish where they do not occur. I will put your diocese in my prayers.

 

[buffalo]

MichCath:

-Presider’s chair in the assembly
-reason given by priest: “I want to be connected with my people.”

Then this Priest should have no problem with ad orientem.

 

[Ignatius]

MichCath:

Hello,

There are some things going on at masses I’ve been to, and I’m not totally sure they are liturgically sound. But I’m also not sure if I’m overreacting because my home parish is more traditional than most.

These are things I have seen at several different parishes with different priests within my Diocese.

They are all very extremely common in my diocese. There are also churches that have done *Every single one *of these things!

Here it is:

-Presider’s chair in the assembly
-reason given by priest: “I want to be connected with my people.”

-Gloria not said or sung at all (during Ordinary time).
reason given by priest: “should be saved for special occasions.”

-Profession of faith not recited or sung
reason given by priest: “we tried it, but not everyone knew it.”

Priest not washing hands during Eucharistic prayer and not adding water to the wine.
reason given by priest: “we want to keep it simple.”

-Priest joins hands with congregation in the front row during Lord’s Prayer.
(at this point, I stopped asking questions)
I can live with the congregation holding hands (actually, I enjoy this practice, but I don’t think the priest should do it).

-Also, the priest doesn’t say the benediction in the middle of the Lord’s Prayer ("deliver us lord, from every evil, etc…) He doesn’t say it before or afterward, either.

-Priest encourages “young people” to come and stand around the altar during the consecration.

-Priest takes communion last, by going through the communion line with the other EM’s. Usually, not even “last,” just the first of the EM’s at the end.

-Variation 1: Priest takes communion last (serves himself), but has the Deacon go through the communion line with the other EM’s.

-Variation 2: Priest takes communion first (serves himself), but makes the Deacon go through the communion line with the EM’s at the end.

Very popular: Communal pennance services. However, they are billed as reconcilation services. Just go to the service, and you’re forgiven. I had always thought that a pennance service meant that if you go to Confession just before (a week or so), then you can go to the service, and not need to do an individual pennance.

-Seminarians have given homilies (at least they were about vocations).

Very popular: The priest has the Pastoral Associate/Administrator give the homily. Occasionally, a Pastoral Administrator (particularly a woman or married man) has preached the gospel, although this doesn’t happen as often.

A very well-founded rumor has floated that the Bishop may soon put the brakes on the last two issues, which has angered a few priests I personally know.

Two of these priests have also been open advocates of women priests, and are extremely defensive when dealing with liturgical issues.

In other words, it’s not just as easy as going to them and saying “are you doing this right,” because they’ve had nearly twenty years to have the perfect excuse for almost every concern thrown at them.

OK, that’s it. Am I overreacting? Is this liturgical abuse, or is it technically allowed, and I’m just used to a more conservative style?

I don’t think you are overreacting at all. Is the local bishop already aware of this and accepts or condones it?

 

[MichCath]

gelsbern:

I don’t know about the seminarians giving homilies being an abuse, but the rest certainly seem to be.

Were the seminarians transitional deacons?

The Seminarian I listened to was in his first full year, and not yet a transitional deacon. At least his homily was about vocations-actually, it was an interesting one about not being afraid if you’re called to be a priest or deacon, and not being afraid of being Catholic and proud of it.
I’m not sure how far along the other Seminarian was, that was at a different mass.

We do have a relatively new Bishop (new to us, not “new” new). And so far, he’s said he will stop lay ministers from preaching (eventually), and for that he is already facing vindictive tirades the local letters to the editor.

The Bishop also indicated that there’s more to come, something to do with more reverence at mass (that could fill a whole discussion board with each item done wrong with what I’ve seen around here). But he also doesn’t want to alienate the Diocese. The last two Bishops were extremely liberal. It’s an open secret that one of them unofficially refused to have a permanent Deacon program, because of its exclusion of women. A few squeaked in, mostly from other parts of the country who moved here.

I tried bringing these issues to two of my priest friends. I asked them a response, saying I had seen a post like mine on the internet. They were not happy, stating that so many people are badly educated in their religious studies, that sites and forums like this are dangerously inaccurate.

So you can see why telling them that I am the one with the problem isn’t really a viable option. (Along the same lines of the “leaflet” post up there).

 

[otm]

MichCath:

It’s an open secret that one of them unofficially refused to have a permanent Deacon program, because of its exclusion of women. A few squeaked in, mostly from other parts of the country who moved here.

Not that it is particular to this thread, but I assume you are referring to one of the prior bishops, and not the current one who refused to have a diaconite program?

MichCath:

I tried bringing these issues to two of my priest friends. I asked them a response, saying I had seen a post like mine on the internet. They were not happy, stating that so many people are badly educated in their religious studies, that sites and forums like this are dangerously inaccurate.

So you can see why telling them that I am the one with the problem isn’t really a viable option. (Along the same lines of the “leaflet” post up there).

Well, if you want to continue to try (or to put it another way, to tilt with windmills) you might get a copy of the most recent General Instruction of the Roman Missal. I don’t know if it is available through bookstores such as Borders; or perhaps Amazon; if not, try your local Catholic bookstore (and don’t tell them the real reason you want it if they need to order it - just tell them you have to get a copy for a liturgical committee - if for no other reason than to avoid unnecessary landmines), or check with Catholic Answers.

Then when you go back to talk with them about the issue, you can start from their comment about people not being educated and such forums being dangerously inaccurate, and proceed accordingly.

Or, you can skip to the bishop. Major hint: you need to find a way of contacting him that will not allow someone else to filter you out, some carryover from previous administration(s) who may not be in favor of the new regime. A general letter to the bishop may be opened and read by a secretary or other individual, and you may be sorted out of the system without ever getting to him. Good luck if you decide to take this route.

Oh, and by getting a copy of the GIRM, you will probably be able to find most of the answers to most of your questions; not having mine handy, I am not convinced that a priest stepping down from the ambo is an issue concerning the homily. I would need to look that up; most of the rest are out of bounds.

 

[Fr_Chuck]

There are a few that are minor issues and I see no issue with,

Some of them are major issues and need to be addressed.
Most of every issue with the communion ( except allowing the little children come and watch ( I acutally like that and without looking can’t see a problem)

But your local bishop needs to be aware of this, I am “liberal” but this scares even me.

 

[MrS]

Fr_Chuck:

, I am “liberal” but this scares even me.

I have found that many Catholics who say they are liberal, usually are not.

Why would you choose the term liberal over any other? (Just nosey)

 

[Fr_Chuck]

Perhaps the term stict, old fashion.

I worked for may years in our nations prisons, then for years with the homeless. You tend to be less formal when you are talking with junkies under a bridge.

Now I work with the aged in nursing homes and the community.
Besides my newer administration duties.

As a Order member we don’t do alot of public mass ( ok it is pubic but no one ever comes) So some of the formality that should be there is often loss, not that it should be, but somehow.

So while I may not do a bow always at every place, ( example I think I really do) I just can’t image someone not putting the water in, and following the basic rules of who reiceves first and the such.

I could see myself setting with the people ( I don’t) I am going to look that one up to see if it is or isnot a rule.
but if you do mass and three people are there, there really not much of a matter as to where you sit.

My old Bishop was strict , if you did not fold the corporal a very specific way he would be all over you. I guess in many ways that is the best way to be.

I would like to know is some of these are every time, or if this is a list of things that has happened over 5 years. I guess we all do some things wrong from time to time.

so perhaps it is not the best word, but I believe it fits, I even notice a few things when I watch Catholic TV, I often wonder if they have to watch these things over and over to learn not to do them again.