Is this ok? - Seder meal for Catholics?

[Stephen_Korsman]

Two useful sources for a Catholic Seder:

catholicculture.org/lit/recipes/view.cfm?id=349 :

Passover or Seder Meal Menu

For Christian families remembering Christ’s Jewish heritage, celebrating a Seder meal on Holy Thursday in memory of the Last Supper is a great tradition. This provides suggestions for celebrating a proper Seder.

amazon.com/Come-Table-Catholic-Passover-Seder/dp/0976396203

Come to the Table: A Catholic Passover Seder for Holy Week, by Meridith Gould

 

[puzzleannie]

A group of my Catholic friends are going to hava a Catholic “Lord’s day supper” which according to them is not a seder but it is based on the seder meal. They said it is not a communion service or modeled after it but…

As a Catholic, can I attend such a seder-like meal?

it is permissible for a Catholic to attend a seder if invited to a Jewish home, and I highly recommend it. What is not permissible, and the actual link has been posted if not here, on a similar concurrent thread, is for Catholics to put on something that resembles a seder with an attempt to “Christianize” the elements of the meal, blessings and actions. If a parish wishes to have a seder it should be a seder. The Mass of the Lord’s Supper is the celebration of the Eucharist. The two should not be confused, because to do so actually blurs the aspects of the seder which do prefigure the Eucharist and Pasch. Also care should be taken not to offend Jews by doing such a thing as a public act. Where I come from many Jews take this presentation by a Christian parish as mocking the rituals of their religion, just as we would feel if a Muslim congregation held a mock Mass.

 

[Sixtus]

If a parish wishes to have a seder it should be a seder. The Mass of the Lord’s Supper is the celebration of the Eucharist.

My arguement exactly. It would not be appropriate for Catholics to debaucherise a Sedar Meal. That would be very offensive to Jews.

It would be ok to have a meal to commemorate the Last Supper but you cannot call it a Sedar Meal. There must be nothing ‘Christian’ in a Sedar Meal.

The proper officiate of a Sedar Meal is a Rabbi. A Catholic [or other Christian] minister would not be acceptable and deemed as religiously offensive and derogatory.

As Puzzleane has already pointed out, it would be about as offensive for Catholics to celebrate a Sedar as it would for Moslems to attempt to consecrate the Eucharist.

 

[rwoehmke]

The proper officiate of a Sedar Meal is a Rabbi. A Catholic [or other Christian] minister would not be acceptable and deemed as religiously offensive and derogatory.

I do not believe that this is true. The Seder Meal is usually celebrated in the context of a family or extended family. It is not a ceremony held in a Temple, but in the home. The Last Supper was a Seder Meal. In Luke Jesus referred to it as eating this Passover with his Apostles. Our Mass is not only a sacrifice, but also a Paschal meal where we share in the sacrifice and the eating of The Lamb.

 

[Sixtus]

Originally Posted by Sixtus
The proper officiate of a Sedar Meal is a Rabbi. A Catholic [or other Christian] minister would not be acceptable and deemed as religiously offensive and derogatory.

I do not believe that this is true. The Seder Meal is usually celebrated in the context of a family or extended family. It is not a ceremony held in a Temple, but in the home. The Last Supper was a Seder Meal. In Luke Jesus referred to it as eating this Passover with his Apostles. Our Mass is not only a sacrifice, but also a Paschal meal where we share in the sacrifice and the eating of The Lamb.

Then it is ok for devil worshippers to hold a black mass.

You cannot have your cake and eat it

 

[Sixtus]

Originally Posted by Sixtus
The proper officiate of a Sedar Meal is a Rabbi. A Catholic [or other Christian] minister would not be acceptable and deemed as religiously offensive and derogatory.

I do not believe that this is true. The Seder Meal is usually celebrated in the context of a family or extended family. It is not a ceremony held in a Temple, but in the home. The Last Supper was a Seder Meal. In Luke Jesus referred to it as eating this Passover with his Apostles. Our Mass is not only a sacrifice, but also a Paschal meal where we share in the sacrifice and the eating of The Lamb.

That is not true.

No where in a Sedar Meal does the officiate say 'Take this is my Body which is given up for you’, likewise:** ‘This is my blood the blood of the new covenant that shall be shed for the forgiveness of sin’** No where are these words part of the Sedar Meal.

This is where our Blessed Lord ‘broke rank’ with the traditional Sedar Meal and it ceased to be a ‘Sedar’ and became 'the last supper, the Mass.

We [and I] believe in the Mass consecrated by the Saviour. But I also recognise that we have no right and would be extremely offensive to impose this derivation upon the Jews, who celebrate the Exodus and what their God [the Father] did for them.

 

[JKirkLVNV]

The proper officiate of a Sedar Meal is a Rabbi. A Catholic [or other Christian] minister would not be acceptable and deemed as religiously offensive and derogatory.

The proper officiant of a seder doesn’t have to be a rabbi. I think usually the father or grandfather presides.

 

[Stephen_Korsman]

The proper officiate of a Sedar Meal is a Rabbi. A Catholic [or other Christian] minister would not be acceptable and deemed as religiously offensive and derogatory.

The proper officiant of a seder doesn’t have to be a rabbi. I think usually the father or grandfather presides.

Just a few more thoughts on these issues:

How new is this idea of Catholics keeping a Seder? From what I’ve seen, it predates me, but does it predate Vatican II? Is it an “innovation” or is there a historical aspect to this that establishes it as a real Catholic practice?

If there is a historical tradition of having this optional event as part of the calendar, then who celebrates it would be defined by some liturgical or canon law, and the official celebrant would, by virtue of the fact that it’s a Catholic service, never be Jew, let alone a rabbi unless he were Catholic.

Non-Catholic churches that celebrate seders do not usually invite a rabbi to do it for them - they see it as a Christian service, and there is little point in asking someone who doesn’t believe in Christ to officiate at a Christian service.

The Seder meal was taken over by Christians and became what we know today as the Mass. Back then I’m sure it’s Eucharistic use offended some Jews, but today it’s well-established as our own.

It’s good to rediscover our Jewish roots.

But is it good to celebrate the Last Supper Eucharist, derived from the Seder as the Mass is, and then follow that with a Seder meal as if that is the real thing and therefore better? (Not real presence, but real Seder, as opposed to the non-real Seder that the Mass has turned into?)

Are we unhappy with the Mass that the Seder originally turned into, that we need to get a new Seder?

From what I can see, this Seder thing is a new practice that falls outside the liturgical calendar as a private devotion that many have taken up. If it is meant to be a private Christian devotion, the requirement for a Jew to officiate is pointless - were not trying to have a valid or licit Jewish service, were trying to make a Jewish practice into a Christian devotion. So whether or not its offensive to Jews to celebrate it, its offensive to invite them as well.

(Side thought: Are we meant to avoid offense, or should we preach the Gospel even if people find it offensive at times?)

In order to recapture our lost Judaism, should we start circumcising? Having mikvah baths even though we`ve been baptised? Is the Mass a loss that we now need to turn the Seder into something else as well? Two meals with Seder origins?

Ok … rambling … I`ve not made up my mind if this is good or bad.

God bless,
Stephen

 

[valient_Lucy]

As a postscript, I challenge you to find a single synagogue any where in the world that’s having a Christian, Eucharistic-type celebration after their Seder meal so that the members of the synagogue can see what the Seder meal has grown into.

And why should they?

 

[valient_Lucy]

I have attended such a Seder twice in my lifetime, and while I don’t think that they are “pernicious” or wrong, I think the practice is misguided. The Seder ritual that most Jews follow has undergone a great deal of development, and the current format dates back to the time of the First Crusade, not to the time of Christ, according to a Jewish professor. So, if you want to learn more about the Jewish faith, I would definitely go to a Seder meal. But I’m not sure it will help you understand the Passover meal as Christ would have celebrated it.

 

[valient_Lucy]

The proper officiant of a seder doesn’t have to be a rabbi. I think usually the father or grandfather presides.

That’s correct. Seder meals take place at home, not in the Synagogue.

 

[Valke2]

While the rituals that take place at the seder meal have undergone changes (and the meal is much longer) than at the time of Jesus, the basic celebration, as set forth in the Torah, hasn’t changed. A central and enduring theme being the retelling of the story of how we were slaves in Egypt, and now are free.

 

[rwoehmke]

Just a few more thoughts on these issues:

How new is this idea of Catholics keeping a Seder? From what I’ve seen, it predates me, but does it predate Vatican II?
The Seder meal was taken over by Christians and became what we know today as the Mass. Back then I’m sure it’s Eucharistic use offended some Jews, but today it’s well-established as our own. It’s good to rediscover our Jewish roots.

From what I can see, this Seder thing is a new practice that falls outside the liturgical calendar as a private devotion that many have taken up.
(Ok … rambling … I`ve not made up my mind if this is good or bad. God bless, Stephen

Didn’t happen till after Vatican II. I don’t really think most participants see it as a liturgical event, but more as a chance to experience something of old in a social setting. I don’t know of any Catholics who hold one in their home where it is properly held if it is a true Seder. I think it falls into a category like the utensilless meals of the Dark Ages that some participate in from time to time for some good fun and socializing.

 

[lwest]

I’m having trouble understanding why it’s not good for Catholics to participate in seder meals. We’ve acted out the Last Supper as a family (which was a seder meal with a ‘twist’). I think it helped them understand it a lot better and I justified it by thinking of how kids act out stations of the cross and there are other gospel plays, etc, so I thought it was ok. Can someone explain why it’s not ok and give me a reference in the Catechism of the Catholic Church? Thank you.