Is This Particular Teaching Subject to Change?

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pureDzire

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Met a woman recently, from Ireland. She spoke of family generations of turmoil and battle as Catholics VS Protestants from years long passed, even to the point of losing their lives. Living long enough to see how the Church’s understanding and behavior has changed toward Protestants, she feels all those years were for naught. Her sense of betrayal is profound and deep.

**Question: ** If this can happen with regard to Protestants and Catholics, is it likely to also happen between Homosexuals and the Church’s understanding and behavior toward them in the future? If not, why not? What is the differing factor that would make one happen and not the other?
 
There will never come a time where the Church says that same-sex relations are acceptable, just as it will never say that it is acceptable for a Catholic to become a protestant. The Church will continue in encouraging people with same-sex attraction, to live chaste lives and overcome their temptations. How the Church approaches this, however, will vary from country to country and diocese to diocese.
 
I don’t understand what you’re saying. Are you saying this woman actually feels betrayed because Protestants and Catholics aren’t killing each other, and that she thinks the violence stopped because the Church realized it had been wrong in the first place? (not so).

Apples and oranges. I don’t advocate killing at all, under any circumstances, but just because Protestants and Catholics are able to discuss their differences without violence doesn’t mean that Catholics accept protestant TEACHINGS as ‘just as truthful’ as Catholic teachings.

Therefore, Catholics (and nonCatholics) may be able to discuss with gays their differences without ‘violence’ but it doesn’t mean that we have ‘accepted’ that gay sex etc. is just or good.

I think your friend has confused toleration (which by definition acknowledges that a behavior/concept etc. of group A is NOT acceptable to group B, but that group B will ‘tolerate’ the unacceptable behavior if group A refrains from forcing the behavior onto group B) with acceptance.

Protestants and gays (not that I am limiting ‘tolerance’ to only these groups, or singling them out as ‘wrong’ in all ways) are ‘tolerated’ by Catholics but their teachings and practices, when in error, are not accepted. (A chaste homosexual person is not acting in error and so his correct actions would be perfectly acceptable and we would not consider that we are ‘tolerating’ him. I know it is a tough concept because so many people do misuse the word and concept of tolerance).

I hasten to add that Protestants may just as well claim to ‘tolerate’ Catholics as obviously some of our teachings are not accepted by them.
 
Marriage is a sacrament that can only be between one man and one woman with God as the 3rd one in the union. Sex outside of marriage is a serious sin for anyone regardless of who they find attractive (male, female or both), so all of us single people need to find ways to have a good life absent sex. None of us have a “right” to a sex life or to a marriage. There is no one including the current or a future Pope who has the authority to change that sacrament. I would suggest checking out the Catechism of the Catholic Church and reading about the subject if it is of particular interest. The book is available in a searchable format online for free.
scborromeo.org/ccc.htm
 
I have read the posts thus far, and I thank you for your replies, but it has raised another part to this question, based on those replies.

**QUESTION: ** May a gay person then be open about being gay, as long as they are also open about being chaste? Why would they want to, you might ask. Some people that I have spoken with truly miss being a part of the Church, and very well might return if they knew that they might return without having to go back to pretending to be straight, just to belong.
Would they be able to be openly Chaste, Catholic, and Gay?

This answer I will pass along to a particular person who has influence in a Gay Community of people that reluctantly left the Church because of shame they could no longer bear, and have settled for lesser things, feeling themselves no longer worthy of God’s Graces.
 
generations of turmoil and battle as Catholics VS Protestants from years long passed
My mother was from Ireland, and from what I was taught growing up, the conflict in Northern Ireland was NOT just about Catholics vs. Protestants.

It was a whole mix of things, but most importantly it was about the occupation of part of Ireland by a foreign military and the harsh rule of that foreign military over the Irish. It manifested in Catholic vs. Protestant because the Irish were Catholic, and the British were Protestant. It was the most defining, visible difference between the occupier and the occupied. Didn’t help that the Brits were quite antagonistic at the time, and always wanted to have their “Protestant Parades” travel through the Irish Catholic section of town.

The peace in N. Ireland does not mean the Church has “accepted” Protestantism. IMHO, it means the people on both sides finally realized that violence begets violence, and it was that violence that was keeping them from being prosperous. Maybe the Israelis and Palestinians can take a lesson here?
 
Yes, I think that the teaching can, should, and will very soon change. 🙂 Gay people will have to remain chaste but we may start looking at homosexuality similarly to the way we look at anorexia nervosa, bulimia, or being an ethnic minority.

Why? Just think about the Sistine Chapel and Pieta by Michelangelo. Michaelangelo lived with a “monk-like” chastity composed about 300 sonnets/poems to a younger man and had an intellectualized/spiritualized relationship with a woman in his old age. Gay people experience deep suffering because of internalized self-hate due to the lack of unconditional love they receive from their family, the world, the Christian community, and the Catholic community. When we think of homosexual people, perhaps instead of the negative energy that we can feel towards them, we might think of Michelangelo’s Pieta and Christ’s Crucifixion and try to emphathize. 🙂

There is already a ministry in place: couragerc.net/ Perhaps though the secrecy associated with this ministry is too much and someday soon they will also be able to talk about their sufferings out in the open.

 
I have read the posts thus far, and I thank you for your replies, but it has raised another part to this question, based on those replies.

**QUESTION: ** May a gay person then be open about being gay, as long as they are also open about being chaste? Why would they want to, you might ask. Some people that I have spoken with truly miss being a part of the Church, and very well might return if they knew that they might return without having to go back to pretending to be straight, just to belong.
Would they be able to be openly Chaste, Catholic, and Gay?

This answer I will pass along to a particular person who has influence in a Gay Community of people that reluctantly left the Church because of shame they could no longer bear, and have settled for lesser things, feeling themselves no longer worthy of God’s Graces.
No one is asked to “pretend” to be anything he isn’t in the Church. 🙂 All the Church asks of homosexual members is that they don’t live in sin and don’t promote others living in sin. Period. There’s no need for anyone to announce his/her “orientation” be s/he homosexual or heterosexual.
 
Yes, I think that the teaching can, should, and will very soon change. 🙂 Gay people will have to remain chaste but we may start looking at homosexuality similarly to the way we look at anorexia nervosa, bulimia, or being an ethnic minority.

Why? Just think about the Sistine Chapel and Pieta by Michelangelo. Michaelangelo lived with a “monk-like” chastity composed about 300 sonnets/poems to a younger man and had an intellectualized/spiritualized relationship with a woman in his old age. Gay people experience deep suffering because of internalized self-hate due to the lack of unconditional love they receive from their family, the world, the Christian community, and the Catholic community. When we think of homosexual people, perhaps instead of the negative energy that we can feel towards them, we might think of Michelangelo’s Pieta and Christ’s Crucifixion and try to emphathize. 🙂

There is already a ministry in place: couragerc.net/ Perhaps though the secrecy associated with this ministry is too much and someday soon they will also be able to talk about their sufferings out in the open.

http://www.rome.info/pictures/art/michelangelo/michelangelo_pieta.jpg
The Church does not need to “change its teaching” regarding homosexual persons. 🙂 The Church has already stated that homosexual persons are not to be discriminated against for having this particular burden. As I stated in response to pureDzire, all the Church asks is that all it’s members live lives of chastity within their state in life. And for single people, be they homosexual or heterosexual, that is in a state of celibacy since marriage is the only state in which conjugal relations are not a sin.
 
I have read the posts thus far, and I thank you for your replies, but it has raised another part to this question, based on those replies.

**QUESTION: ** May a gay person then be open about being gay, as long as they are also open about being chaste? Why would they want to, you might ask. Some people that I have spoken with truly miss being a part of the Church, and very well might return if they knew that they might return without having to go back to pretending to be straight, just to belong.
Would they be able to be openly Chaste, Catholic, and Gay?

This answer I will pass along to a particular person who has influence in a Gay Community of people that reluctantly left the Church because of shame they could no longer bear, and have settled for lesser things, feeling themselves no longer worthy of God’s Graces.
If by “pretending to be straight” your mean abstaining from indulging in sexually immoral sins relating to their homosexual pre-disposition, then it is doubtful they will ever find that they can fit in unless they experience some change of heart.

That homosexuals announce a “coming out” is a practice deeply rooted in society and culture. It has no relation to the spiritual realm or the Church, which considers temptations toward homosexuality to be the same as any other kind of predisposition. Kleptomaniacs (people with a pre-disposition to steal) and pedophiles (people with a pre-disposed attraction to children) do not “come out,” so why would homosexuals (people pre-disposed with an attraction to the same sex) do so?

There is also the concern that having avowed homosexuals, even if they publicly declare themselves chaste, would make grave scandal within a parish community.

I hope that helps. You might also refer your friend to the following article.

After Coming Out, I Came Home

God bless!
 
The Church does not need to “change its teaching” regarding homosexual persons. 🙂 The Church has already stated that homosexual persons are not to be discriminated against for having this particular burden. As I stated in response to pureDzire, all the Church asks is that all it’s members live lives of chastity within their state in life. And for single people, be they homosexual or heterosexual, that is in a state of celibacy since marriage is the only state in which conjugal relations are not a sin.
If we are not discriminating aginst them then why do we have a problem with them coming out. We don’t have a problem with people coming out of alcoholisim, anorexia nervosa, or bulimia so why do we have a problem with this. Is it revulsion and disgust that we feel that creates the huge problem with this particular sin while we turn a blind eye to the massive amount of heterosexual people who do not practice chastitiy or pornography industry.
 
If we are not discriminating aginst them then why do we have a problem with them coming out. We don’t have a problem with people coming out of alcoholisim, anorexia nervosa, or bulimia so why do we have a problem with this. Is it revulsion and disgust that we feel that creates the huge problem with this particular sin while we turn a blind eye to the massive amount of heterosexual people who do not practice chastitiy or pornography industry.
Most who “come out” are declaring their intention to live the life of a practicing homosexual. Anyone who hasn’t decided to do so has no reason to announce his/her orientation to anyone. We assume people are living chastely unless they announce otherwise. As you stated, sin is sin, no matter who commits it.

For example, I feel no disgust for my niece who is homosexually oriented. She used to be “in the life” but seeing for herself the reality of it has decided to not pursue such relationships. I never lectured her or treated her with anything other than love and respect as I do all my other nieces and nephews who aren’t burdened with this particular thing. If people do treat homosexuals with disgust they aren’t acting as Christ and his Church would want us to.
 
If by “pretending to be straight” your mean abstaining from indulging in sexually immoral sins relating to their homosexual pre-disposition, then it is doubtful they will ever find that they can fit in unless they experience some change of heart.
No, it is not pretending to be straight. It would be letting homosexuals be openly accepted without needing to hide themselves from others. They shouldn’t hate themselves, and obviously they do hate themselves if they commit such high amounts of suicide and live promiscuous lifestyles that cause large scale infections of HIV/AIDS. Above we have a thread of a young girl who lost her virginity. How come we sympathize with adulterers, fornicating young men and women, but we despise, loathe, and fear homosexuals? If we don’t despise, loathe, and fear them, then what is wrong with treating them the way that we treat Catholic heterosexuals who completely ignore the virginity doctrine
That homosexuals announce a “coming out” is a practice deeply rooted in society and culture. It has no relation to the spiritual realm or the Church, which considers temptations toward homosexuality to be the same as any other kind of predisposition. Kleptomaniacs (people with a pre-disposition to steal) and pedophiles (people with a pre-disposed attraction to children) do not “come out,” so why would homosexuals (people pre-disposed with an attraction to the same sex) do so?
I agree. I don’t think that they need to come out either. They are people who struggle with homosexual inclination in my opinion, not homosexuals. But it would make sense to make dialogue on the issues more open and less politically charged and hateful. If we don’t hate alcoholics, who often beat their wives and cause drunk driving accidents and can’t hold down a job, then why should we hate homosexuals.
There is also the concern that having avowed homosexuals, even if they publicly declare themselves chaste, would make grave scandal within a parish community.
Thank you for being concerned about these types of things. What kinds of grave scandal are you worried about? Maybe we can put institutions in place to limit or restrain it. 🙂 However, if Michaelangelo was gay or bisexual and he painted the Sistine Chapel of Rome and the Pieta and is pretty much the greatest artist of all of humankind, it seems a bit mean to hate and not support people like him.
I hope that helps. You might also refer your friend to the following article.
God bless!
Thank you for this article link. I will read it so that I can know what it says. I am just worried though because I have known a few gay men who really wanted to be straight. However, even after dating women, they still had gay desires. I just worry that we put so much pressure on them to be straight and they are just so extremely sensitive to the opinions of others that they may feel tempted to pretend to be straight in order to gain our approval. We should love them unconditionally the way that Christ loves us. Exodus International is a ministry that tries to make gay men straight and two of its founders divorced their wives and went off to live together and then at least one died of HIV/AIDS. I think it is better that we keep these things out in the open so that they feel no pressure to get married to women if they don’t want to just to be considered normal.

Also, why can’t gay men be friends with straight men and learn from straight men as friends. Why can’t we treat homosexuality the way we treat anorexia nervosa and bulimia? 😦

Scripture tells us that Christ loves homosexuals as well.
He said in reply, “Have you not read that from the beginning the Creator ‘made them male and female’ and said, ‘For this reason a man shall leave his father and mother and be joined to his wife, and the two shall become one flesh’? So they are no longer two, but one flesh. Therefore, what God has joined together, no human being must separate.”
They said to him, “Then why did Moses command that the man give the woman a bill of divorce and dismss (her)?”
He said to them, “Because of the hardness of your hearts Moses allowed you to divorce your wives, but from the beginning it was not so. I say to you, whoever divorces his wife (unless the marriage is unlawful) and marries another commits adultery.”
[His] disciples said to him, “If that is the case of a man with his wife, it is better not to marry.”
He answered, “Not all can accept [this] word, but only those to whom that is granted.
Some are incapable of marriage because they were born so; some, because they were made so by others; some, because they have renounced marriage for the kingdom of heaven. Whoever can accept this ought to accept it.”
Then children were brought to him that he might lay his hands on them and pray. The disciples rebuked them, but Jesus said, “Let the children come to me, and do not prevent them; for the kingdom of heaven belongs to such as these.” After he placed his hands on them, he went away. Matthew 19:4-15

This message of Our Lady tells us that the Kingdom of Heaven is for everyone. 🙂 😃 youtube.com/watch?v=S_X8l9OcEDI&mode=related&search
 
Most who “come out” are declaring their intention to live the life of a practicing homosexual. Anyone who hasn’t decided to do so has no reason to announce his/her orientation to anyone. We assume people are living chastely unless they announce otherwise. As you stated, sin is sin, no matter who commits it.
This is from a gay Christian’s blog.
Those hidden in secrecy suffer the effects of silence. A person, shamed in the darkness by self or society, experiences profound depression. It is common to consider suicide as a viable option. He or she feels isolated and disconnected, misunderstood, undesirable, unwanted, and unacceptable. This person can feel abandoned by loved ones - similar to the feelings of children of adoption. Even a person who has others who know about the “secret” can suffer when it remains a taboo topic of discussion. He or she feels invalidated and unimportant as if this significant issue in his or her life is still irrelevant to those whose opinions matter. These are people who are still thirsting to be known. They find it difficult to embrace the grace of Christ that is freely available to them. A sense of perfectionism in some of these people is evident because of their constant self-perception of being an imperfect creation. These are people who feel sad, alone, confused, and frustrated.
It may be possible for them to live chastely and still be respected for that and not teased, etc. for not having a girlfriend or avoided by other men. As many as 65% transgender attempt suicide in their teens before they come out. Why do they hate themselves so much if not for us who loathe and fear them?
For example, I feel no disgust for my niece who is homosexually oriented. She used to be “in the life” but seeing for herself the reality of it has decided to not pursue such relationships. I never lectured her or treated her with anything other than love and respect as I do all my other nieces and nephews who aren’t burdened with this particular thing. If people do treat homosexuals with disgust they aren’t acting as Christ and his Church would want us to.
How did you know she was homosexually oriented? Do you wish that you had never known and that it is horrible that you now know?

Thank you for your concern and kindness. I appreciate your desire to not compromise the Church’s teachings. I just worry that we are causing them unnecessary pain that they feel they have to hide. We all know that some men get beaten up or avoided by other men, maybe some of those victims and survivors are homosexuals and we need to teach our heterosexuals sons, brothers, and husbands not to despise them. Maybe the artists need to attend football games, and the football players need to learn to appreciate art and teaching. :eek:
 
It may be possible for them to live chastely and still be respected for that and not teased, etc. for not having a girlfriend or avoided by other men. As many as 65% transgender attempt suicide in their teens before they come out. Why do they hate themselves so much if not for us who loathe and fear them?
I cannot comment on why they try to commit suicide. That is for a psychiatrist to determine, not us. I would not presume to understand their suffering nor the cause of it based on a statistic.
How did you know she was homosexually oriented? Do you wish that you had never known and that it is horrible that you now know?
Her mother told me. And no, I don’t wish I had never known and no I don’t think it is horrible that I know now. Why on earth would you ask such questions? I never indicated I had negative feelings about my niece because of it :confused:
Thank you for your concern and kindness. I appreciate your desire to not compromise the Church’s teachings. I just worry that we are causing them unnecessary pain that they feel they have to hide. We all know that some men get beaten up or avoided by other men, maybe some of those victims and survivors are homosexuals and we need to teach our heterosexuals sons, brothers, and husbands not to despise them. Maybe the artists need to attend football games, and the football players need to learn to appreciate art and teaching. :eek:
I think you are being too broad in your assumptions. People get beat up every day for many reasons. Sadly, some for being homosexual, but not all do, so there’s no reason to be overly bothered about it unless they cannot receive justice, which they certainly can. And what makes you single out artists as more likely to be homosexual than football players? Isn’t that a stereotype we should avoid putting on others? 😉

Besides, the OP was worried that the Church is going to change its teaching about homosexual practice. We’ve established that it isn’t and that everyone ought to be treated with kindness and respect. What more do we need to say? 🙂
 
They shouldn’t hate themselves, and obviously they do hate themselves if they commit such high amounts of suicide and live promiscuous lifestyles that cause large scale infections of HIV/AIDS.
You wouldn’t happen to have any statistics to support these high suicide rates, would you? Also, how can you correlate self-loathing to promiscuous lifestyles?
Above we have a thread of a young girl who lost her virginity. How come we sympathize with adulterers, fornicating young men and women, but we despise, loathe, and fear homosexuals?
Uh, well, who is “we?” You? Me? The Church?

You’re making sweeping generalizations here based off the prototype of some anti-gay fundamentalist Christian core group. Not the Church, which teaches that homosexual persons “must be accepted with respect, compassion, and sensitivity” and going so far as to say that “Every sign of unjust discrimination in their regard should be avoided” (CCC 2358).
If we don’t despise, loathe, and fear them, then what is wrong with treating them the way that we treat Catholic heterosexuals who completely ignore the virginity doctrine
Again, you’re making sweeping generalizations about people “who completely ignore the ‘virginity doctrine’” and then using that to defend an argument against the treatment of homosexual people.
I agree. I don’t think that they need to come out either. They are people who struggle with homosexual inclination in my opinion, not homosexuals. But it would make sense to make dialogue on the issues more open and less politically charged and hateful.
That’s a problem with society and not the Church.
If we don’t hate alcoholics, who often beat their wives and cause drunk driving accidents and can’t hold down a job, then why should we hate homosexuals.
“Often?” You’re generalizing again.

(Continued below…)
 
(…continued from above)
Thank you for being concerned about these types of things. What kinds of grave scandal are you worried about? Maybe we can put institutions in place to limit or restrain it. 🙂
My primary concern would be the grave scandal associated with the word that “There’s a church over there that gives Holy Communion to practicing homosexuals.” That makes it onto the news. Throw in some political extractions. Bam: Scandal.

Now, are you really proposing that churches distribute Communion to practicing homosexuals? No. But that’s the nature of scandal. Lies develop and rumors spread and that’s what you end up with.

The Church simply doesn’t need that. Not now.
However, if Michaelangelo was gay or bisexual and he painted the Sistine Chapel of Rome and the Pieta and is pretty much the greatest artist of all of humankind, it seems a bit mean to hate and not support people like him.
Well, firstly, that Michelangelo was “pretty much the greatest artist of all humankind” is solely your opinion because I can look at a Michelangelo and say it look atrocious, thus shattering your argument of how “people like him” should be treated.
Also, why can’t gay men be friends with straight men and learn from straight men as friends.
Who says that they can’t?
Why can’t we treat homosexuality the way we treat anorexia nervosa and bulimia? 😦
People have tried to. Unlike with anorexia and bulimia, the results of such treatments demonstrate varying levels of success.
Scripture tells us that Christ loves homosexuals as well.
Who ever denied this?
 
I cannot comment on why they try to commit suicide. That is for a psychiatrist to determine, not us. I would not presume to understand their suffering nor the cause of it based on a statistic.
Here is an NPR link. npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=98782569 Apparently, the ones who experience a great deal of rejection when they come out are the ones with the highest risk. Neutrality is a lot better than rejection.
Her mother told me. And no, I don’t wish I had never known and no I don’t think it is horrible that I know now. Why on earth would you ask such questions? I never indicated I had negative feelings about my niece because of it :confused:
Then why would it be horrible for other people to know. :confused: Isn’t that what coming out is - not saying that you are going to practice the lifestyle but letting a few close friends know that you struggle with these desires. Many homosexual people have come out to me and very few others, not even necessarily letting other friends of theirs who are homosexual know, and being able to let someone else know about the great secret that they were carrying and not feel rejected seemed to help them. Most of these who came out to me in private without telling others have lived chaste styles. In fact, one I know dated a woman for a while, but for each of them - they disliked the Church. I was leading a bible study and I thought they would never come given that they had these desires and the Church teaching so I didn’t even invite them. Then they came but they stayed for only a few minutes and then left as if they felt that they would be hurt or wounded just by being in the presence of Christians. One of my gay friends, who is living a chaste lifestyle and wants to be a Christian but thinks that he can’t because of his desires, reacts almost instinctively negatively to a Bible because I read to him the passages in Romans a few years ago. I think that they try, more than the average heterosexual does.
I think you are being too broad in your assumptions. People get beat up every day for many reasons. Sadly, some for being homosexual, but not all do, so there’s no reason to be overly bothered about it unless they cannot receive justice, which they certainly can. And what makes you single out artists as more likely to be homosexual than football players? Isn’t that a stereotype we should avoid putting on others? 😉
There’s no smoke without fire. 😉 Not all same-sex attraction people are artists, but a high proportion of them are, they are much more disproportionately represented than in the population as a whole. I suspect that same-sex attracted people are also football players as well but it is a different type. To be crude and I hope you can forgive me - the dominant male same-sex is more likely to be the football player and the submissive male same-sex attracted is more likely to the poet or artist.
Besides, the OP was worried that the Church is going to change its teaching about homosexual practice. We’ve established that it isn’t and that everyone ought to be treated with kindness and respect. What more do we need to say? 🙂
There’s a huge difference between establishing that and actually doing it. 😦 Just like civil rights laws were established long long before the public’s mindset changed.
 
You wouldn’t happen to have any statistics to support these high suicide rates, would you?
npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=98782569 I think that it is hard for us to understand because I strongly suspect from my conversations that many same-sex people struggle with the need for approval much more than non same-sex people do, and also strongly suspect that they are less likely to be approved or genuinely liked than non gay people. Women who don’t conform to gender norms or men who are very feminine in certain ways may tend to stay at the outskirts of our society, never portrayed as contributing positively to our society. I know on the blog Gay and Christian, the author states something along the lines of that straight men in our society contribute most to the rejection of LGBT people, and I know a lot of my straight male friends do not like LGBT people whether they say it outloud or not. Almost all the hate crimes done to LGBT people are done by men hurting gay men or lesbian women.
Also, how can you correlate self-loathing to promiscuous lifestyles?
Many same-sex attracted people feel as if they were born wrong, are worthless, and despicable. Thus, they care less if they die or not and throw caution to the wind with STDs in pursuit of lust. Just like anorexics have a low self image and starve themselves or bulimics vomit. Statistics from the San Francisco Municipal clinic show that HIV/AIDS infected gay men are much more promiscuous than non-HIV/AIDS infected gay men.
sfdph.org/dph/files/reports/StudiesData/STD/STD0408.pdf Many same-sex attracted men have largely abandoned safe sex practices. thebody.com/content/art28966.html
Uh, well, who is “we?” You? Me? The Church?

You’re making sweeping generalizations here based off the prototype of some anti-gay fundamentalist Christian core group. Not the Church, which teaches that homosexual persons “must be accepted with respect, compassion, and sensitivity” and going so far as to say that “Every sign of unjust discrimination in their regard should be avoided” (CCC 2358).
I’m not basing it on an anti-gay fundamentalist Christian core group or the teachings. I’m not suggesting that the Church change its teaching, but that the love may be seen in incarnated form in a deeper sense.

From Archbisop Oscar Romero in the Violence of Love: plough.com/ebooks/violenceoflove.html
Evangelizing is not just saying words.
Preaching is relatively easy,
but to live out what is preached -
as I told the Holy Father in Rome,
to respect the teachings of the Holy See,
of the magisterium,
to praise them, extol them, defend them theoretically
is very easy;
but when one tries to incarnate that teaching
and give it life in a diocese, in a community,
and point out concrete events
that are against that teaching,
then the conflicts arise.
And this is the life of our archdiocese, dear friends,
because not all are willing
to live a commitment to witness;
not all suffer persecution,
and it is easy to say there is no persecution.
But every priest, religious, or lay person
who wants to announce Christ’s gospel in truth
must suffer persecution.
The witness of life is necessary.
Here I make an appeal that all your lives and mine
be in truth a silent preaching.
Thus is the gospel lived,
not just by preaching pretty sermons
and not living them.
July 16, 1978
Again, you’re making sweeping generalizations about people “who completely ignore the ‘virginity doctrine’” and then using that to defend an argument against the treatment of homosexual people.

That’s a problem with society and not the Church.

“Often?” You’re generalizing again.
(Continued below…)
The Church has an influence on society. Maybe I am making a sweeping generalization and I need forgiveness for doing this but I do think that Catholics tend to demonstrates its condemnation of same sex sexual activity much more vocally and strongly than of things such as divorce and opposite sex unmarried sexual activity. I do personally suspect that there is a good reason for that - since opposite sex people can get married and their desires are not disordered. But I am not sure that we have gotten the message out that same-sex attracted people are not imperfect for having those desires, they can’t control desire although they can actively fight lustful thoughts, it is the action itself that is the problem not the person. I think that this may be because we don’t have positive role models for same-sex people known about in the Church, so we tend to assume that all saintly people have opposite-sex desires until shown otherwise. Yet, when I closely read the writings of certain saints and when I examined the life of Michelangelo, I realized that there may be more holy same-sex attracted people who successfully live chaste lives than I, or many others, might think. However, since this issue is treated with such immense secrecy it is hard to find these things out.
 
(…continued from above)

My primary concern would be the grave scandal associated with the word that “There’s a church over there that gives Holy Communion to practicing homosexuals.” That makes it onto the news. Throw in some political extractions. Bam: Scandal.

Now, are you really proposing that churches distribute Communion to practicing homosexuals? No. But that’s the nature of scandal. Lies develop and rumors spread and that’s what you end up with.

The Church simply doesn’t need that. Not now.
The Church is always going to be the crucified Christ. Aren’t we supposed to be the one safe place in society where people can experience unconditional love? So how can we deny it to people most in need of our love. The Church has always spread by ministering to those at the margins of society. That’s how many saints have reached sainthood. Blessed Mother Teresa ministered to the dying in Calcutta, including those dying of HIV/AIDS. Saint Katherine Drexel ministered to blacks and Native Americans in the United States.

If we give communion to practicing heterosexuals we shouldn’t discriminate against practicing homosexuals. Actually, though I suspect that a lot of same-sex attracted men may be ideal for the monastery life - with exclusively male community, extremely beneficial prayer for the world, lack of social inhibitions against doing things like skateboarding at the age of 60, interior and exterior chastity and deep sanctity.

He said in reply, “Have you not read that from the beginning the Creator ‘made them male and female’ and said, ‘For this reason a man shall leave his father and mother and be joined to his wife, and thew two shall become one flesh’? So they are no longer two, but one flesh. Therefore, what God has joined together, no human being must separate.”
They said to him, “Then why did Moses command that the man give the woman a bill of divorce and dismiss (her)?” He said to them, “Because of the hardness of your hearts Moses allowed you to divorce your wives, but from the beginning it was not so. I say to you, whoever divorces his wife (unless the marriage is unlawful) and marries another commits adultery.” [His] disciples said to him, “If that is the case of a man with his wife, it is better not to marry.”
He answered, “Not all can accept [this] word, but only those to whom that is granted.
Some are incapable of marriage because they were born so; some, because they were made so by others; some, because they have renounced marriage for the sake of the kingdom of heaven. Whoever can accept this ought to accept it.”
Then children were brought to him that he might lay his hands on them and pray. The disciples rebuked them, but Jesus said, “Let the children come to me, and do not prevent them; for the kingdom of heaven belongs to such as these.” After he placed his hands on them, he went away.Matthew 19:4-15
Well, firstly, that Michelangelo was “pretty much the greatest artist of all humankind” is solely your opinion because I can look at a Michelangelo and say it look atrocious, thus shattering your argument of how “people like him” should be treated.
A catholic can look at the Sistine Chapel or Renaissance art or the Pieta and say it is ridiculous. Can go to Rome and seriously say that without thinking that they are disrespecting God?

The next day, while they were on their way and nearing the city, Peter went up to the roof terrace to pray at about noontime. He was hungry and wished to eat, and while they were making preparations he fell into a trance. He saw heaen opened and something resembling a large sheet coming down, lowered to the ground by its four corners. In it were all the earth’s four-legged animals and reptiles and the birds of the sky. A voice said to him, “Get up, Peter. Slaughter and eat.” But Peter said, “Certainly not, sir. For never have I eaten anything profane and unclean.” The voice spoke to him again, a second time, “What God has made clean, you are not to call profane.” This happened three times, and then the object was taken up into the sky.

I would think that if anything had been made clean it would have to be things such as thing such as the Fresco of the Last Judgment in the Sistine chapel and Michelangelo’s Pieta or his design of the dome of St. Peter’s Basilica.

Pieta

Who says that they can’t?
I have noticed in my own life that men struggling with same-sex identity mostly tend to have female friends. You see this as well on t.v. Gay men might be friends with Tyra Banks but not with Rush Limbaugh. It is also written in Gay and Christian’s blog that straight men often do not like to be friends with same-sex attracted men.
People have tried to. Unlike with anorexia and bulimia, the results of such treatments demonstrate varying levels of success.
Do you know what treatments we have tried? I’m actually suggesting that we look at it the way that we look at anorexia and bulimia, with deep sympathy instead of a fear that that they will corrupt us or that they have burdens that we don’t want to carry. You are right though - I hadn’t previously considered that treatment is an option for anorexia/bulimia for one and not necessarily the other. But maybe it is ok that they have the identities that they do. Many of us have or have had in the past at least one disordered desire in an area of our life. We have a Catholic ministry to homosexuals; maybe it is more secret/hushed than it needs to be. couragerc.net/

He ain’t heavy, he’s my brother
Pretty big load for such a small kid’ I said as I met him. ‘Why, mister,’ he smiled, 'He ain’t heavy; he’s my brother."
 
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