Is this permitted? sex question

[fpt]

FPT–an earlier post had said that that you can never have intercourse unless open to children so this would make the act wrong. Of course the OP is already pregnant so that in itself wouldnt be a plausible argument that, and the fact that some woman have hystorectomies young…that would mean they could no longer have intercourse either. and post menopausal women as well. I was agreeing with her that this is not merely masterbation because the idea is nott o stop life, it is to save it

My comments:

FPT–an earlier post had said that that you can never have intercourse unless open to children so this would make the act wrong. I am totally okay.

Information:

Women without uterus after a surgery (true medical issues, or for contraception and after a confession) can get married and make love (complete marital act)

Women without ovaries after a surgery (true medical issues, or for contraception and after a confession) can get married and make love (complete marital act)

Women without Fallopian tubes after a surgery (true medical issues, or for contraception and after confession) can get married and make love (complete marital act)

Your quote" that would mean they could no longer have intercourse either. and post menopausal women as well. I was agreeing with her that this is not merely masterbation because the idea is nott o stop life, it is to save it." Explain please?

 

[dailey]

I may be going against the grain here but…I was on pelvic rest for 2 out of the 5 pregnancies we have had. this last one resulted in pelvic rest as well as a premature baby. During the timeof pelvic rest DH and I struggled with this Q as well. We prayed togther and came to the realization that we were not cheasting, we were not banning life, in fact saving it (like you) and that God is just and loveable. I too felt awful as more of the duties shifted to him as I became further and further laid up, and I tell you from experience that those moments of re connecting were so special for us and helped us hold on one more day! lol not literally, we werent considering divorce or anything, but it made the terribly hard seem more tolerable. I agree that if that was the case and this was evil and masterbation etc etc then woman after hystorectmy would no longer be able to enjoy the marital embrace…

and as an aside…when DH and I were first married after about 6 months I had developed a very strange allergy to him. After the marital embrace it was very uncomfortable and painful and in fact I began to despise it. after MEETING WITH OUR FAMILY PRIEST several times, he said that because our intentipn was not to withold life, he could infact climax outside of me during the month that I was not ovulating…but we had to abstain during ovulation (and we knew when i was from BBT and LH surge) we went on to successfully have children after this and through various changes ‘help’ or lessen the allergy. my point is…it is not a one size cookie cutter for all re: rules. Talk to God. pray w your hubby ask Jesus to lead you. Some of our most intimate moments involved my duration of pelvic rest. U learn how much u love and miss something when it is gone. GL!

You need to find a new family priest.

 

[StJudePray4Me]

FPT–an earlier post had said that that you can never have intercourse unless open to children so this would make the act wrong. Of course the OP is already pregnant so that in itself wouldnt be a plausible argument that, and the fact that some woman have hystorectomies young…that would mean they could no longer have intercourse either. and post menopausal women as well. I was agreeing with her that this is not merely masterbation because the idea is nott o stop life, it is to save it

As I understand it, the church’s teaching about sex is not only about conceiving children, but about the proper “use” of sex so to speak. Even if a person is unable to conceive for whatever reason (already pregnant, having had a hysterectomy, post-menopausal), the “rules” about intercourse are the same. Only a completed act of vaginal intercourse ending in male orgasm inside the woman is considered licit. Oral or manual sex ending in orgasm outside the woman’s vagina is not.

Others on this board have explained it more eloquently than I could, but it is about unity as well as procreation and in order to avoid sex becoming an exercise in selfish satisfaction as an end unto itself, we are taught to enjoy sex in it’s proper context.

Now, I’m not saying that all of us find this teaching easy to comply with, or that we don’t sometimes fail and fall down, but to instruct someone that it’s about “the ends and not the means” is not really appropriate.

We should encourage the OP to comply with the Church’s teachings as it is clear that is what she wants, she is merely looking for help in doing so.

To the OP I say: good on ya for wanting to do the right thing for you, your baby, your husband and your marriage. Hang in there, although it seems like a long time, I think you’ll find that the pregnancy will be the blink of an eye in the grand scheme, and hopefully this “absence” will make your hearts grow fonder and you will have a wonderful re-connection after your baby comes. You have the rest of your lives to enjoy sex with each other and for now, I’m sure you can find the strength through prayer to avoid for now. Lots of good wishes to you!

 

[AngelEyes4Jesus]

I agree that it is commendable to try to uphold the churches teachings. But I was trying to point out that we also were trying to uphold the churches teachings and received permission from our family priest to do exactly as she is asking d/t the fact that wastruly determines the gravity of a sin etc is the intention. A mortal sin so to speak can not be a mortal sin unless it you know what you are doing and make a concious choice to do something. so the church itself states that the intention is everything. This could also be applied to NFP. A couple is to use NFP and space children for ‘grave’ reasons. this terminology/reasoning is subject to intrepertation. If your intent was to use NFP to space your children because of a severe medical reason then it would be permitted because of ur intentions. If however u were to space ur children using NFP because you didnt want to trade in ur corvette for a family vehicle, then this would be wrong because your intention is wrong.

On the contrary, Intent is everything.

 

[camerong]

I agree that it is commendable to try to uphold the churches teachings. But I was trying to point out that we also were trying to uphold the churches teachings and received permission from our family priest to do exactly as she is asking d/t the fact that wastruly determines the gravity of a sin etc is the intention. A mortal sin so to speak can not be a mortal sin unless it you know what you are doing and make a concious choice to do something. so the church itself states that the intention is everything. This could also be applied to NFP. A couple is to use NFP and space children for ‘grave’ reasons. this terminology/reasoning is subject to intrepertation. If your intent was to use NFP to space your children because of a severe medical reason then it would be permitted because of ur intentions. If however u were to space ur children using NFP because you didnt want to trade in ur corvette for a family vehicle, then this would be wrong because your intention is wrong.

On the contrary, Intent is everything.

When dealing with a grave matter, the above kind of talk puts people’s souls at risk. Those struggling with temptation do not need to hear “oh, you mean well, so it’s probably just a venial sin…” Whether a sin is grave or not is an objective matter. Whether a person has the requisite knowledge and consent has nothing to do with that person is seeking arguably good ends with the sin.

It sounds like the OP is not confused by the few responders who do not understand Church teaching, so good for her. Let’s pray for their difficult situation.

 

[thewanderer]

I agree that it is commendable to try to uphold the churches teachings. But I was trying to point out that we also were trying to uphold the churches teachings and received permission from our family priest to do exactly as she is asking d/t the fact that wastruly determines the gravity of a sin etc is the intention. A mortal sin so to speak can not be a mortal sin unless it you know what you are doing and make a concious choice to do something. so the church itself states that the intention is everything. This could also be applied to NFP. A couple is to use NFP and space children for ‘grave’ reasons. this terminology/reasoning is subject to intrepertation. If your intent was to use NFP to space your children because of a severe medical reason then it would be permitted because of ur intentions. If however u were to space ur children using NFP because you didnt want to trade in ur corvette for a family vehicle, then this would be wrong because your intention is wrong.

On the contrary, Intent is everything.

Actually, intent is most definitely not everything. The ends do not justify the means. :nope:

 

[AngelEyes4Jesus]

I guess then what I am not understanding is why OUR family priest gave us permission to do the same exact thing on 2 seperate occassions with the EXACT same reasoning I just used in my previous post? When I brought it up before he explained it more in depth to me about the intent he wouldnt even hear our confession because he said we had not sinned. Then after explaining in depth to us, we realized he was correct. I am def NOT trying to give excuses for the OP or to sway her away and risk her soul, I am giving the advice that DH and I were given by a very trusted priest and our spiritual advisor. No offense meant and not trying to argue anyone. But am seriously confused right now.

 

[camerong]

I guess then what I am not understanding is why OUR family priest gave us permission to do the same exact thing on 2 seperate occassions with the EXACT same reasoning I just used in my previous post? When I brought it up before he explained it more in depth to me about the intent he wouldnt even hear our confession because he said we had not sinned. Then after explaining in depth to us, we realized he was correct. I am def NOT trying to give excuses for the OP or to sway her away and risk her soul, I am giving the advice that DH and I were given by a very trusted priest and our spiritual advisor. No offense meant and not trying to argue anyone. But am seriously confused right now.

Unfortunately, your priest is wrong on this issue. This is not terribly uncommon. Lots of priests have advised people that masturbation is okay if it helps them avoid other sexual sins, etc. Some priests believe abortion and gay marriage is okay–although this is a finer distinction than those, the point is that priests are people too and can be mistaken. Further, priests do not have the power to exempt individuals from moral law.

This is not to say that your priest is bad or his spiritual direction of you is flawed in any other respects–sometimes very good priests can be mistaken, and mistakenly think that charity requires bending the rules.

 

[camerong]

I would invite you to call the Catholic Answers apologists hotline, 619-387-7200, someone there can help give a better explanation of the teaching, the source of the teaching, the effect of good intent, etc.

When I joined the Church a few years ago, I desperately wanted the people on this forum to be WRONG about this particular teaching (for various reasons). I searched and tried very hard to prove to myself that I could not follow the Church’s teaching on sexuality if my intention was good. I quickly learned that every expert who takes sin seriously and every trustworthy source I could find leaves no doubt. Ultimately, I now am far happier that I realized this and am living in accordance with God’s will for my wife’s and my sexuality–but I only got there kicking and screaming!

 

[thewanderer]

Camerong is right, and has given some good advice.

I would also just like to assure you that since you were convinced by your priestss guidance that there was nothing wrong with this it was not sinful for you to engage in it. So make sure not to beat yourself up about it. Also, don’t think any less of your priest because of this. We are **all **human and none of us has everything 100% correct. All we can do is our best, and from your description of your priest I would assume that that is exactly what he is trying to do.

With respect to morality there are 3 important things which determine whether or not an action is moral, intent/end, means, and circumstances.

In the case of using NFP to avoid it is actually the circumstances which would make it moral or immoral to use. There is nothing wrong in itself with the intent to avoid children, it is only in certain circumstances that this intent becomes problematic through selfishness. The reason everything to do with NFP hinges on intent/circumstances is because the means themselves are already moral.

Perhaps you priest was thinking of the principle of double effect? In this case, it is possible to perform an action that will bring about evil consequences so long as those evil consequences are not in any way intended, the good effect intended is proportionate to (ie equal to or greater than) the evil effect. However, even this only applies in instances where the means being used are not in themselves immoral.

For instance, it is allowed to perform a medical procedure to save the life of a mother even when it will cause her child to die** so long as **the action to save the mothers life is not the direct killing of her unborn child. This is why the Church is against abortion in **all **cases, even those where the mother’s life is at risk. Instead it allows procedures, such as the removal of the fallopian tube, which will result in the child dying, but which do not directly kill the child.

Is any of this helpful? or am I just confusing things? If I am, then just ignore it and follow camerong’s advice to call the hotline. Maybe search the threads on here to see if someone else has explained it in a way that is easier to understand?

 

[catholicanne]

I think you have misunderstood. The post you are defining as not having credibility is accurate. The sin is in the disordered sex act-- climaxing outside of intercourse. Those in the OP’s situation-- along with those who have had a hysterectomy, reached menopause, or are sterile-- are called to abstain unless they enter the full marital embrace… meaning a completed act of intercourse. Those in the situations you describe are not free to engage in disordered sexual acts (those that are masturbatory or otherwise disconnect the intrinsic elements of order to procreation and unity). You cannot have untity without order to procreation or vice versa.

 

[AngelEyes4Jesus]

Thank you for the kind words and great references. I am explaining this to DH and reviewing everything togther. and to the OP I hope you are able to come to a choice you feel happy and content with. Prayers and thoughts for u DH and Baby. :bounce:

 

[dailey]

Unfortunately, your priest is wrong on this issue. This is not terribly uncommon. Lots of priests have advised people that masturbation is okay if it helps them avoid other sexual sins, etc. Some priests believe abortion and gay marriage is okay–although this is a finer distinction than those, the point is that priests are people too and can be mistaken. Further, priests do not have the power to exempt individuals from moral law.

This is not to say that your priest is bad or his spiritual direction of you is flawed in any other respects–sometimes very good priests can be mistaken, and mistakenly think that charity requires bending the rules.

Loved your post! Good for you for following the truth.