Is this place Hell or Purgatory?

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Where is this place in the story of the rich man and lazarus in Luke 16:19-31, is it Hell or Purgatory?
 
Sam_777 said:
Where is this place in the story of the rich man and lazarus in Luke 16:19-31, is it Hell or Purgatory?
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Although Scripture does not say (using only the pagan term “Hades”); I’d say Hell, for the following reasons:
  1. RM is given no suggestion that he will later be freed from Hades, whereas everybody in Purgatory will ultimately see Heaven.
  2. If this were Purgatory, Lazarus/Abraham would have been allowed to comfort him, as Church teaching is that “Purgatorians” can be helped by those in Heaven.
  3. Purgatory is, at worst, a checkpoint or customs line on the path to Heaven. Why, then, if this were Purgatory, would RM desire so much that his brothers not go there? He knew firsthand that there was no hope where he was.
  4. In Revelation, Hades is “cast into the lake of fire”.
So the preponderance of evidence is that RM was in fact in Hell. There is no valid reason to suspect that this was only Purgatory.

God Bless and ICXC NIKA.
 
I agree with Scott Hahn and Patrick Madrid. This place is purgatory. As Madrid states in his book *Any Friend of God is a Friend of Mine *“The rich man intercedes on behalf of his brothers still living on earth…this would seem to indicate that the Rich Man, although in a place of “fiery torment” was not in hell. After all, the damned are incapable of showing charity, and the Rich Man was clearly doing so for his brothers.”

It would seem to me that the Rich Man had grace in his heart. He had compassion for his brothers. A person in hell is incapable of love for others.
 
‘There is no need to prove the existence of Hell. Our Lord Himself speaks of it when He relates the history of the wicked rich man who cried out, “Lazarus! Lazarus!”’

St. Jean Marie Baptiste Vianney, the Cure of Ars

‘Now mark his perverseness; not even in the midst of his torments does he keep to truth. If Abraham is thy father, how sayest thou, Send him to thy father’s house? But thou hast not forgotten thy father, for he has been thy ruin.’

St. John Chrysostom, Father and Doctor of the Church

‘He knew Lazarus whom he despised, he remembered his brethren whom he left. For that sinners in punishment may be still more punished, they both see the glory of those whom they had despised, and are harassed about the punishment of those whom they had uuprofitably loved.’

St. Ambrose, Father and Doctor of the Church

‘The hearts of the wicked are sometimes by their own punishment taught the exercise of charity, but in vain; so that they indeed have an especial love to their own, who while attached to their sins did not love themselves. Hence it follows, For I have five brethren, that he may testify to them, lest they also come into this place of torment.’

St. Gregory

‘The rich man was buried in hell, but Lazarus was carried by angels into Abraham’s bosom. . .’

St. Gregory

'You will say, that the damned are in utter despair, hating both God and man, cursing everything and every creature, and bearing good will to none — how then could Dives have wished that his brethren might escape the torments of hell? I answer —
  1. The damned do not wish to cause anything good, i.e. any act of natural or supernatural virtue, nor have they the power do so on account of their despair, and intense hatred of God and all good, but they are able to desire some natural good, for example, that it may be well with their parents or brethren. For this reason S. Chrysostom, Ambrose, and Theophylact, think that the rich man, influenced by the ties of kindred and by family affection, really was anxious for the welfare of his brethren, for nature remains the same even in the damned. The action of Dives therefore was one of nature and not of virtue, and had regard, not to actual good, but to natural good only, as the action of animals in nourishing their young.
  2. The rich man was anxious for himself more than for his brethren, for he considered their evil his own, inasmuch as their condemnation would increase his torments, because he was the occasion and the cause of their evil lives.
Thus S. Gregory, Lyranus, and others, Cajetan adds, “Dives asked this out of the pride which fills the hearts of the damned, that if not in his own person, at least in the person of his brethren he might be blessed and exalted.”

Hence S. Ambrose says, “This rich man too late begins to be a master, for he had neither time for learning nor teaching.”
  • The Great Commentary, Cornelius a Lapide
 
Thanks everyone for your contribution, however, could we match these two (chasm & enmity) together?

Luke 16:26
“And besides all this, between us and you a great chasm has been set in place, so that those who want to go from here to you cannot, nor can anyone cross over from there to us.’”

Genesis 3:15
“I will put enmity between you and the woman, and between your seed and her seed; he shall bruise your head, and you shall bruise his heel.”
 
Sam_777 said:
Where is this place in the story of the rich man and lazarus in Luke 16:19-31, is it Hell or Purgatory?
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Which one? There are two places mentioned and there is “a gulf between them” preventing either side from crossing over to the other.
 
Ignatius said:
Which one? There are two places mentioned and there is “a gulf between them” preventing either side from crossing over to the other.
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One side could be Hell or Purgatory and the other side could be heaven…
 
The angels and saints in Heaven minister to the souls in Purgatory. 🙂
 
The parable is symbolic and intended to convey a message, to show we have responsibility to individuals less fortunate than ourselves. Whether or not they were in Purgatory, Paradise or Hell, it could be interpreted as any of them. The reference to a ‘great chasm’ would indicate a unbreachable separation between the two places. It would be justifiable to say the the rich man was in Hell and Lazarus was in Paradise (Bosom of Abraham), a place reserved for the righteous dead.
 
Shin said:
The angels and saints in Heaven minister to the souls in Purgatory. 🙂
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Brother in Christ :), how could Purgatory be worst than nowadays earth, look around you and you would see many miserable stories here and there…
 
Soldier_Of_God said:
The reference to a ‘great chasm’ would indicate a unbreachable separation between the two places. It would be justifiable to say the the rich man was in Hell and Lazarus was in Paradise (Bosom of Abraham), a place reserved for the righteous dead.
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One thing sure in that place, that we can still remember earthy things…

Because I sometimes think if it’s possible to remember our earthy things in Paradise or not…(which I personally prefer NOT to remember).
 
Sam_777 said:
One thing sure in that place, that we can still remember earthy things…

Because I sometimes think if it’s possible to remember our earthy things in Paradise or not…(which I personally prefer NOT to remember).
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I certainly wouldn’t mind not remembering that movie I saw last night. 🙂
 
Soldier_Of_God said:
I certainly wouldn’t mind not remembering that movie I saw last night. 🙂
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The problem not with good memories, the problem remembering each others mistakes/sins, for example what would be the reaction of the Jews when they see Hitler (after finishing Purgatory) in Paradise, or the 911 people when they see OBL!
 
Sam_777 said:
Brother in Christ :), how could Purgatory be worst than nowadays earth, look around you and you would see many miserable stories here and there…
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Truly there are many horrors and sins in this world today, and there are no sins in Purgatory, and nothing is worse than sin.

But Purgatory’s fires are more dreadful than any in this life that can be felt by man. So we should pray for the holy souls… God rest the holy souls.

Eternal rest grant unto them O Lord. . .

May God keep you my brother in Christ! 🙂
 
Sam_777 said:
One thing sure in that place, that we can still remember earthy things…

Because I sometimes think if it’s possible to remember our earthy things in Paradise or not…(which I personally prefer NOT to remember).
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Your mind/memory is what makes you “you”, along with your stream of consciousness, and your physical human body.

Since we will all die unconscious (our stream of thought ends), and we lose the human body (to gain, instead, the pneumatikon soma), “you” can only live again if somehow your mind and memory are reinstated. Else there would be no “you” to experience everlasting life.

God Bless and ICXC NIKA.
 
Sam_777 said:
The problem not with good memories, the problem remembering each others mistakes/sins, for example what would be the reaction of the Jews when they see Hitler (after finishing Purgatory) in Paradise, or the 911 people when they see OBL!
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If those people in fact make Purgatory, remember, everybody will have a “divine mind,” so to speak.

Having Heavenly breath in your nose will give you such fullness of wisdom that all will be understood and forgiven.🙂

ICXC NIKA
 
Sam_777 said:
Where is this place in the story of the rich man and lazarus in Luke 16:19-31, is it Hell or Purgatory?
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I think it’s safe to say,
  • even though Jesus is telling the parable, He tells the parable in the present, not future tense. So until His death resurrection and ascension to heaven, heaven is not open yet.
  • if the rich man is in purgatory, he can’t advance from where he is until Jesus does His work.
  • if Abraham and Lazarus aren’t in heaven, but in some other place of comfort, they can’t advance from where they are either, until Jesus does His work…Both Lazarus and Abraham, and the rich man, have gulfs they can’t cross.
If the rich man is in hell, I would think as a condition of being judged and condemned by God,

    • he would know he is condemned in hell, he would know he has no ability to ask for favors, or intercede for his family, because In hell there is no hope for anything good. I would think this knowledge is all part of judgement, to know this.
    • he doesn’t appear to have this knowledge, because he is asking Abraham for assistance not only for himself but his family.
    • And there is no indication in scripture, that people condemned in hell can communicate with people NOT in hell.
    for reasons 2 & 3, I think it’s possibile the rich man is in purgatory. But we know many people think he is in hell. If the Church has made a decision on this I’ll go with the Church 😉
 
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