Is this rejecting Christ ?

[onemangang]

I am not sure that you are understanding what the discussion is all about.

The Priest on Larry King said that Jesus will save good muslims, those who deny Jesus is Lord, even if they do not believe in Jesus, because they live good lives.

The Catholic Catechism also teaches that islamic people are saved because they adore and embrace the God of Abraham.

Islam is a production in Arabia of Christian heretics, Judaism, and paganism. This is not Christ.

The priest (same Show, different clip) also talks about not an explicit belief, as in those who are drawn by love, to love, are indeed being called to do so through the grace of our Lord Jesus Christ. To take one short clip of a priest (who is not the Church btw) is misleading.

The Catechism says a whole lot around the reference you infer from.

READ IN CONTEXT

The Church and non-Christians

839 "Those who have not yet received the Gospel are related to the People of God in various ways."325

The relationship of the Church with the Jewish People. When she delves into her own mystery, the Church, the People of God in the New Covenant, discovers her link with the Jewish People,326 "the first to hear the Word of God."327 The Jewish faith, unlike other non-Christian religions, is already a response to God’s revelation in the Old Covenant. To the Jews “belong the sonship, the glory, the covenants, the giving of the law, the worship, and the promises; to them belong the patriarchs, and of their race, according to the flesh, is the Christ”,328 "for the gifts and the call of God are irrevocable."329

840 And when one considers the future, God’s People of the Old Covenant and the new People of God tend towards similar goals: expectation of the coming (or the return) of the Messiah. But one awaits the return of the Messiah who died and rose from the dead and is recognized as Lord and Son of God; the other awaits the coming of a Messiah, whose features remain hidden till the end of time; and the latter waiting is accompanied by the drama of not knowing or of misunderstanding Christ Jesus.

841 The Church’s relationship with the Muslims. "The plan of salvation also includes those who acknowledge the Creator, in the first place amongst whom are the Muslims; these profess to hold the faith of Abraham, and together with us they adore the one, merciful God, mankind’s judge on the last day."330

842 The Church’s bond with non-Christian religions is in the first place the common origin and end of the human race:

All nations form but one community. This is so because all stem from the one stock which God created to people the entire earth, and also because all share a common destiny, namely God. His providence, evident goodness, and saving designs extend to all against the day when the elect are gathered together in the holy city. . .331
843 The Catholic Church recognizes in other religions that search, among shadows and images, for the God who is unknown yet near since he gives life and breath and all things and wants all men to be saved. Thus, the Church considers all goodness and truth found in these religions as "a preparation for the Gospel and given by him who enlightens all men that they may at length have life."332

844 In their religious behavior, however, men also display the limits and errors that disfigure the image of God in them:

Very often, deceived by the Evil One, men have become vain in their reasonings, and have exchanged the truth of God for a lie, and served the creature rather than the Creator. Or else, living and dying in this world without God, they are exposed to ultimate despair.333
845 To reunite all his children, scattered and led astray by sin, the Father willed to call the whole of humanity together into his Son’s Church. The Church is the place where humanity must rediscover its unity and salvation. The Church is “the world reconciled.” She is that bark which “in the full sail of the Lord’s cross, by the breath of the Holy Spirit, navigates safely in this world.” According to another image dear to the Church Fathers, she is prefigured by Noah’s ark, which alone saves from the flood.334

**“Outside the Church there is no salvation”

846 How are we to understand this affirmation, often repeated by the Church Fathers?335 Re-formulated positively, it means that all salvation comes from Christ the Head through the Church which is his Body:**

Basing itself on Scripture and Tradition, the Council teaches that the Church, a pilgrim now on earth, is necessary for salvation:** the one Christ is the mediator and the way of salvation;** he is present to us in his body which is the Church. He himself explicitly asserted the necessity of faith and Baptism, and thereby affirmed at the same time the necessity of the Church which men enter through Baptism as through a door. Hence they could not be saved who,** knowing **that the Catholic Church was founded as necessary by God through Christ, would refuse either to enter it or to remain in it.336
847 This affirmation is not aimed at those who, through no fault of their own, do not know Christ and his Church:

Those who, through no fault of their own, do not know the Gospel of Christ or his Church, but who nevertheless seek God with a sincere heart, and, moved by grace, try in their actions to do his will as they know it through the dictates of their conscience - those too may achieve eternal salvation.337
848 "Although in ways known to himself God can lead those who, through no fault of their own, are ignorant of the Gospel, to that faith without which it is impossible to please him, the Church still has the obligation and also the sacred right to evangelize all men."338

 

[Erick_Ybarra]

And?

The Catechism is teaching very plainly that it is “possible” for the entire Muslim nation, a finished product of Judaism, Paganism, and heretical christianity, can be saved by Jesus Christ and go to heaven when they die for the sole reason that by doing good works, the rest of what is needed to get to heaven will be supplied by Jesus Christ.

The same with Buddhism, Hinduism, Shintoism, etc,etc

Whereas the Scripture teaches the a confession of the Lord Jesus and God the Father who raised Him from the dead is what brings salvation.

I can understand those people who are like Ninevah who don’t know the Law and Prophets who repent. But even in this case, it is explicit that they believed in the one God that Jonah warned them about.

There really is no excuse for this kind of heresy. The Church never spoke in this manner for 1800 years.

 

[GraceSofia]

And?

The Catechism is teaching very plainly that it is “possible” for the entire Muslim nation,

No, the Catechism is teaching very plainly that it is possible for there to be exceptions to the normal rule. After all, God is God. Are you going to tell Him who He can save and who He can’t?

The Church never spoke in this manner for 1800 years.

Rubbish. Justin Martyr in 151 AD:

“We have been taught that Christ is the first-begotten of God, and we have declared him to be the Logos of which all mankind partakes [John 1:9]. Those, therefore, who lived according to reason [Greek, logos] were really Christians, even though they were thought to be atheists, such as, among the Greeks, Socrates, Heraclitus, and others like them. . . . Those who lived before Christ but did not live according to reason [logos] were wicked men, and enemies of Christ, and murderers of those who did live according to reason [logos], whereas those who lived then or who live now according to reason [logos] are Christians. Such as these can be confident and unafraid.”

Have you read* Lumen gentium* and Iesus Domini yet? You really need to take some TIME to read and study and think on these things.

Read the Catechism and take the time to look up the footnotes, which are often references to Bible verses or early Church fathers.

Otherwise, you are really not benefiting from your time here.

Here are the essential documents for this discussion, for those who wish to know what the Church teaches:

DOMINUS IESUS" ON THE UNICITY AND SALVIFIC UNIVERSALITY OF JESUS CHRIST AND THE CHURCH

“LUMEN GENTIUM” DOGMATIC CONSTITUTION ON THE CHURCH

 

[neophyte]

ok question I read a post the author said that those outside of Christ may get to heaven…

That’s not Catholic teaching.
No one outside of Christ can attain heaven.
It is, however, possible for someone to be in Christ and not be aware of it.

 

[onemangang]

The Catechism is teaching very plainly that it is “possible” for the entire Muslim nation, a finished product of Judaism, Paganism, and heretical christianity, can be saved by Jesus Christ and go to heaven when they die for the sole reason that by doing good works, the rest of what is needed to get to heaven will be supplied by Jesus Christ. \QUOTE]
**
No. Christ supplied the grace and the works, they just follow the light they are given according to their conscience.**

The same with Buddhism, Hinduism, Shintoism, etc,etc \QUOTE]
**
Yep, Praise God**

 

[Erick_Ybarra]

Just read church history and catholic evangelization

 

[neophyte]

Catholic teaching has never taught that people from other religions can be saved.

It’s quite obvious to me that you don’t understand Catholic teaching nearly as well as you think you do.

We’ve been trying to explain it to you, and many of us have done a very good job of providing clear explanations. It appears to me that you’re relying on your own understanding, believing that what seems right to you must be right, that there’s no possibility that you are self-deceived.

The church understood itself as the meansbif salvation for the world. The churrch always taught that forgiveness of sin, the sacraments, eternal life, and salvation were graces that are only obtained through herself and the gospel.

That doesn’t mean that people who believe wrongly can’t attain heaven.

 

[Erick_Ybarra]

Correct me if I am wrong.

But catholics teach that a person who believes, worships, prays, and obeys all the false idols of the world can obey all the teachings of the religion, lets say this person is a Hindu witch doctor, but by virtue of good works, obviously aside from idolatry and false Gospels, because these can be re-termed to be some portion of truth that is in Christ Jesus, can be saved nonetheless. Some here have said even after hearing the Gospel and rejecting it because of unbelief and commitment to their false gods.

 

[neophyte]

Correct me if I am wrong.

But catholics teach that a person who believes, worships, prays, and obeys all the false idols of the world can obey all the teachings of the religion, lets say this person is a Hindu witch doctor, but by virtue of good works, obviously aside from idolatry and false Gospels, because these can be re-termed to be some portion of truth that is in Christ Jesus, can be saved nonetheless…

The part you keep getting wrong is “by virtue of good works”. We’ve repeatedly said that it’s not by virtue of our good works, but rather by virtue of the grace of God and the work of Christ.

Some here have said even after hearing the Gospel and rejecting it because of unbelief and commitment to their false gods.

I’m not aware of anyone having said that; I know for certain that *I *haven’t. You need to spend a lot of time very carefully studying the excellent documents of the Church, and thinking about them in a very disciplined manner. GraceSofia provided two links that would help you a lot, if only you availed yourself of them.

Right now you seem to be shooting from the hip: reading something and reacting to what you think it means rather than considering it carefully to find out what it really means.

 

[Tantum_ergo]

And?

The Catechism is teaching very plainly that it is “possible” for the entire Muslim nation, a finished product of Judaism, Paganism, and heretical christianity, can be saved by Jesus Christ and go to heaven when they die for the sole reason that by doing good works, the rest of what is needed to get to heaven will be supplied by Jesus Christ.

The same with Buddhism, Hinduism, Shintoism, etc,etc

Whereas the Scripture teaches the a confession of the Lord Jesus and God the Father who raised Him from the dead is what brings salvation.

I can understand those people who are like Ninevah who don’t know the Law and Prophets who repent. But even in this case, it is explicit that they believed in the one God that Jonah warned them about.

There really is no excuse for this kind of heresy. The Church never spoke in this manner for 1800 years.

No, that is NOT what the Church is teaching. The Church is NOT teaching that these people, despite ‘rejecting Christ’, will go to heaven for good works. I challenge you to show me WHERE in Church teaching this is taught. And again, your interpretation of a snippet of a priest’s speech is NOT the equivalent of "Catholic teaching’. We all know how even the most careful person can, in speaking, be ‘unclear’.

 

[Tantum_ergo]

Correct me if I am wrong.

But catholics teach that a person who believes, worships, prays, and obeys all the false idols of the world can obey all the teachings of the religion, lets say this person is a Hindu witch doctor, but by virtue of good works, obviously aside from idolatry and false Gospels, because these can be re-termed to be some portion of truth that is in Christ Jesus, can be saved nonetheless. Some here have said even after hearing the Gospel and rejecting it because of unbelief and commitment to their false gods.

You are wrong. (Well you did ask me to correct you.) The Church says that all who are saved are saved THROUGH JESUS CHRIST AND NONE OTHER, and not by ‘works alone outside of Christ’.

IF they are saved even though they APPEAR to reject Christ on earth (for only God knows their HEART, not JUST THEIR APPEARANCE) they are saved THROUGH CHRIST.

Even if they APPEAR (because only God knows their INNER HEART) to have ‘rejected Christ’, IF THEY ARE SAVED THEY ARE SAVED THROUGH CHRIST AND THROUGH ACCEPTANCE OF CHRIST.

THEY ARE NOT SAVED "in spite of not accepting Christ’. Their salvation must come through acceptance of Christ, and if it does not APPEAR (because only GOD knows their inner HEART) that they have done so on earth, it MUST be that God gives them the grace to know the truth AT THE MOMENT OF DEATH and that they accept just before. Which, of course, you would not know because it would not be apparent to anybody but GOD, who is the only one who KNOWS THE HEART of a person.

 

[onemangang]

Correct me if I am wrong.

But catholics teach that a person who believes, worships, prays, and obeys all the false idols of the world can obey all the teachings of the religion, lets say this person is a Hindu witch doctor, but by virtue of good works, obviously aside from idolatry and false Gospels, because these can be re-termed to be some portion of truth that is in Christ Jesus, can be saved nonetheless. Some here have said even after hearing the Gospel and rejecting it because of unbelief and commitment to their false gods.

Incorrect!

It is by grace. It has nothing to do with them following their religion. It is POSSIBLE that those that are moved to do good out of love, are following the grace that leads them to do so. It is POSSIBLE that if people are following the elements of truth within their religion than they, by grace, are following Christ without explictly knowing who they follow.

One could make a similar argument of knowing Jesus with non-catholic Christians. Who is JJesus? Did He establish a minesterial priesthood? Did He found a Visable Church? Does he give Himself, Body Blood Soul and Divinity to you in the Eucharist? Did He die to make salvation Possible for all men? Did He provide us with a a Sacramental economy? Were there 7? No to all these questions, well I guess we have a different Jesus!

You can see how the same legalism COULD exclude protestants! Some that reject Vatican II happen to take that stance

 

[steve_b]

Actually in the Catechism, it says the following:

“Outside the Church there is no salvation”

846 How are we to understand this affirmation, often repeated by the Church Fathers?335 Re-formulated positively, it means that all salvation comes from Christ the Head through the Church which is his Body:

Basing itself on Scripture and Tradition, the Council teaches that the Church, a pilgrim now on earth, is necessary for salvation: the one Christ is the mediator and the way of salvation; he is present to us in his body which is the Church. He himself explicitly asserted the necessity of faith and Baptism, and thereby affirmed at the same time the necessity of the Church which men enter through Baptism as through a door. Hence they could not be saved who, knowing that the Catholic Church was founded as necessary by God through Christ, would refuse either to enter it or to remain in it.336

The only exception to this rule is if someone has not heard the gospel and they do not know of Christ’s church.

For the individual, ignorance is always a caveot, an escape if you will, provided it’s innocent or maybe invincible, not feigned or deliberate. If it is the later, then

**1791 **This ignorance can often be imputed to personal responsibility. This is the case when a man “takes little trouble to find out what is true and good, or when conscience is by degrees almost blinded through the habit of committing sin.” In such cases, the person is culpable for the evil he commits.
EY:

Therefore, if the Father in the youtube.com video is referring to muslim friends that he has witnessed the faith to, then he is wrong

Or correct me

I wouldn’t base anything on that response.

If the priest on Larry King live, is trying to show respect to other religions who acknowledge one God, like Jews and Muslims, he’s acknowledging a truth. Also considering Larry King is the host and a Jew, it’s probably safe to say he would like to open a door for Larry to explore where there could be common ground. Either way, A 20 second clip of a response is no enough to conclude anything. If that show is archived, and the full show can be examined, then there could be more to discuss and come to conclusions.

BTW

Here’s how Muslims refer to Jesus and Mary in THEIR book
ewtn.com/library/SCRIPTUR/ZKORAN.HTM

 

[Erick_Ybarra]

In other words, somehow Christ can be believed in false religions?

How about all the gods and idols of hinduism? Is all of them together Jesus Christ?

So 2 hindus who believe the same exact things about the gods of hinduism, yet one believes in Christ and the other one does not ?

How can Jesus Christ be in these false religions?

What you are telling me is that people who are believers in false religion can still, even though this is true that what they believe is false and an offense to God (right? the 1st commandment), somehow what they believe is still Jesus and God the Father?

Why does God give the command to have no other Gods before Me? Are we to assume that other nations besides Israel still somehow believed in Yahweh? Why does God get angry with them for their idols?

 

[Erick_Ybarra]

Incorrect!

It is by grace. It has nothing to do with them following their religion. It is POSSIBLE that those that are moved to do good out of love, are following the grace that leads them to do so. It is POSSIBLE that if people are following the elements of truth within their religion than they, by grace, are following Christ without explictly knowing who they follow.

One could make a similar argument of knowing Jesus with non-catholic Christians. Who is JJesus? Did He establish a minesterial priesthood? Did He found a Visable Church? Does he give Himself, Body Blood Soul and Divinity to you in the Eucharist? Did He die to make salvation Possible for all men? Did He provide us with a a Sacramental economy? Were there 7? No to all these questions, well I guess we have a different Jesus!

You can see how the same legalism COULD exclude protestants! Some that reject Vatican II happen to take that stance

Whatever, the works that God puts in them then.

You are still saying the God is accepting people by claiming that the true God can still be worshiping the true God??

Why doesn’t God just save them without any works at all, being done by His Spirit or not?

What the Catholic Church is teaching is either that the Christian God can be reduced and morphed to be the gods of the idolaters or that God is going to save these people anyway, even though they are in moral sin at the point of death by committing idolatry.

 

[Erick_Ybarra]

For the individual, ignorance is always a caveot, an escape if you will, provided it’s innocent or maybe invincible, not feigned or deliberate. If it is the later, then

**1791 **This ignorance can often be imputed to personal responsibility. This is the case when a man “takes little trouble to find out what is true and good, or when conscience is by degrees almost blinded through the habit of committing sin.” In such cases, the person is culpable for the evil he commits.

I wouldn’t base anything on that response.

If the priest on Larry King live, is trying to show respect to other religions who acknowledge one God, like Jews and Muslims, he’s acknowledging a truth. Also considering Larry King is the host and a Jew, it’s probably safe to say he would like to open a door for Larry to explore where there could be common ground. Either way, A 20 second clip of a response is no enough to conclude anything. If that show is archived, and the full show can be examined, then there could be more to discuss and come to conclusions.

BTW

Here’s how Muslims refer to Jesus and Mary in THEIR book
ewtn.com/library/SCRIPTUR/ZKORAN.HTM

Where is the historic truth that salvation is not obtained through idolatry? Is Idolatry not a sin anymore? And if the true God is somehow hidden and implicit in these other religions, why does God have such a big problem with it in the old testament?

The God of Israel called Israel an unfaithful wife because she went to be with the other religions. But if God is in these religions, it would not be a divorce, do you see?

 

[neophyte]

…What the Catholic Church is teaching is either that the Christian God can be reduced and morphed to be the gods of the idolaters or that God is going to save these people anyway, even though they are in moral sin at the point of death by committing idolatry.

Oh, please, spare us. It’s manifestly clear that that is absolutely NOT what the Church teaches, it’s NOT what anyone here has said, and it absolutely contradicts what the Church teaches and what we’ve been saying. It bears no resemblance to anything you’ve heard here.

It appears that what you are doing is parroting what you’ve grown up thinking the Catholic Church teaches, and trying to force whatever you hear into your false preconceptions.

I’m done here.

 

[onemangang]

Where is the historic truth that salvation is not obtained through idolatry? Is Idolatry not a sin anymore? And if the true God is somehow hidden and implicit in these other religions, why does God have such a big problem with it in the old testament?

The God of Israel called Israel an unfaithful wife because she went to be with the other religions. But if God**** is in these religions, it would not be a divorce, do you see?

Whatever, the works that God put s in them then.

You are still saying the God is accepting people by claiming that the true God can still be worshiping the true God??

Why doesn’t God just save them without any works at all, being done by His Spirit or not?

What the Catholic Church is teaching is either that the Christian God can be reduced and morphed to be the gods of the idolaters or that God is going to save these people anyway, even though they are in moral sin at the point of death by committing idolatry.

So I’ll take a hard line stance and say all non-catholics that say they are Christian are in fact not, they have fashioned a Christ that fits their beliefs, instead of having the One, True, Real Christ that has revealed Himself through the Church. The Christ they profess is a man made idol, a false creation, a meme, a false Christ, a social construct, no more no less.

Now to quote a Church father to give this statement credence, but unfortonately those that follow the false Christ won’t consider this proof, because they are decieved by the father of all lies into believing the false Christ they follow, is indeed the ONE TRUE CHRIST, in which we faithfull Catholics follow
**
St.Augustine …Your design clearly is to deprive Scripture of all authority, and to make every man’s mind the judge what passage of Scripture he is to approve of, and what to disapprove of. This is not to be subject to Scripture in matters of faith, but to make Scripture subject to you. Instead of making the high authority of Scripture the reason of approval, every man makes his approval the reason for thinking a passage correct.NPNF1: Vol. IV, Reply to Faustus the Manichaean, Book XXXII, §19*.

I don’t believe what I wrote was true, but you, who are indeed separated from Christ Church, though not fully, have not the authority to pass judgment on those that follow Memes that are a bit more off-base from truth than your own. If you want to hear how the only Christians are Catholic, then peruse sites that reject Vatican II and say there is an empty seat! They take the same stance as you, except they take it to its natural conclusion which includes no Christians outside of being Catholic.

 

[Erick_Ybarra]

But you see protestants, who have close enough doctrine to be saved, are at least believing what the thief on the cross confessed. Protestants who deny their lives, pick up their cross, and suffer for his name are at least believing what zacheus believed by repenting of his sin. Protestants still confess the 3 creeds of the church, most believe the doctrine of some of the early popes, and they confess the trinity and the message of repentance, faith, and the gift of the holy spirit. If protestants are finally saved, it will be because they have grasped the essential truths of Jesus christ in order to be saved.

Someone however who believes in the God Moldova, who sacrifices babies for blessings from God, and dies in thus worship is much different then Protestants. What a silly comparison.

Most protestants would accept Augustine’s logic. Do you think Augustine would have believed in papal infallibility?

 

[shocktrooper]

Is Idolatry not a sin anymore? And if the true God is somehow hidden and implicit in these other religions, why does God have such a big problem with it in the old testament?

The God of Israel called Israel an unfaithful wife because she went to be with the other religions. But if God is in these religions, it would not be a divorce, do you see?

IMO, this is a very good question that no one here has answered and I don’t have the answer myself. I am fine not knowing the answer but this seems to be a stumbling block for this person and we know the words Christ has for those who cause a little one to go astray. I think the Church needs to teach more about how Baptism of Desire applies to other faiths because its original intent seems to have been hijacked by the “universal salvation” crowd, reducing this entire topic to Relativism.

For the record, this is not a defense for the OP’s question. I stand with the Church when She says there is no salvation outside the Church but many that appear to be outside the Church may very well be in Her. But a sin is a sin and idolatry is a sin. We also know that the 10 Commandments are the written form of the Natural Law written on the hearts of all people. I think CCC para 1791 needs to be taught and explained more than it has been in the past 60 years.

1791 This ignorance can often be imputed to personal responsibility. This is the case when a man “takes little trouble to find out what is true and good, or when conscience is by degrees almost blinded through the habit of committing sin.” In such cases, the person is culpable for the evil he commits.

To me this would mean that a Jew or Muslim that grows up as either, but never searches the Truth out of laziness or fear, has much to fear on Judgment Day (and not that I don’t). If any person truly goes to God in prayer asking to be lead in truth, can we really conclude that God’s grace is insufficient for that person and they will never find the truth they seek here in this life?

Pax Christi