Is this rejecting Christ ?

[Erick_Ybarra]

My job is to submit to Gods truth. And that truth is that the unbelieving are going to fall under the judgement of God unless they repent and believe the gospel. Thus is why we have mission. It is a mission of salvation, not a helping alongside of everyones path to god.

 

[Tantum_ergo]

My job is to submit to Gods truth. And that truth is that the unbelieving are going to fall under the judgement of God unless they repent and believe the gospel. Thus is why we have mission. It is a mission of salvation, not a helping alongside of everyones path to god.

Well, then, Erick, what you are waiting for? Shouldn’t you be going to the Buddhist and Muslim forums? Shouldn’t you go help those people by telling them the “real truth”. Otherwise, aren’t you kind of responsible for them not knowing? You’ve spent several pages trying to tell us Catholics how ‘wrong’ we are, when you could have spent all those times trying to save the pagans. . .

I mean, it’s like there is a room full of 50 Christians and a room full of 50 non Christians, and instead of you going to tell the NON CHRISTIANS about Christ, you’re leaving them in their room and staying in the Christian room, going around picking fights with the Christians telling them it’s THEIR fault for not going to the other room. . .when, um, gee, you aren’t in the other room either. . .

 

[Erick_Ybarra]

Jesus commanded the churches to perform the great commission. It is not a waste if time to convince others that the mission of christ is theirs as well

 

[Tantum_ergo]

Jesus commanded the churches to perform the great commission. It is not a waste if time to convince others that the mission of christ is theirs as well

A. What makes you think we’re not performing the great commission already? There are a billion Catholics out there. You surely can’t know what each is doing 24/7!

B. We already know the mission of Christ. What you’re trying to tell us to do is the mission of Erick. It’s not exactly the same though I’m sure you mean well.

C. I’d be very interested to hear your stories of how you went out boldly and led by example as you performed the great commission. You have your idea of what you want done, so go and do it. Give us a role model. (Actually, since I already have enough of my own work to do, and I really don’t expect that you’ll profit by my advice, I probably won’t be coming back to this topic. I kind of think the point was already made long ago.)

Now if you’ll excuse me, I’ll be off to work on the great commission. . .even though you won’t see me and so will probably assume I’m ‘doing nothing’ along with the host of other Catholics and nonCatholic Christians who are out there going under your radar.

If you’re content to spend your time trying to get everybody to do what you want them to do in regard to nonChristians, fine. It’s your time to spend. God bless.

 

[Ion]

Not true. God cannot lie. Why would not christ save the rich man IN his sin? Is that possible? If all things are possible with God then why doesn’t he just save the rich man in his coveteousness? That’s precisely which Jesus said all things are possible with God because God can change him and bring him to the truth. Its already assumed the rich young ruler was a Jew, therefore a change of belief is not required

I said I don’t know how the rich are going to be saved, and I don’t know how a camel can get through the eye of a needle. Now, at least theoretically, it is obvious that I can take the camel into a slaughterhouse, and there chopit down and make it a juice, then through a small tube then through the eye of the needle…would take maybe a month or so… but at the other end there is no camel anymore…
A rich man who wants to be saved can sell his fortune and give it to the poor, but then he is not a rich man anymore. So how do you think Christ is saving the rich?

 

[onemangang]

My job is to submit to Gods truth. And that truth is that the unbelieving are going to fall under the judgement of God unless they repent and believe the gospel. Thus is why we have mission. It is a mission of salvation, not a helping alongside of everyones path to god.

What is Truth? God’s truth is that He infallibly established an infallible social order to infallibly reveal Himself to mankind in the person of Jesus Christ. That is truth

Christianity, apart from the Catholic faith is a social construct of men, that has elements of truth contained in it. Catholicism is the Only revealed religion, that possesses the FULLNESS of the revelation that God has given to man

How do you know you are right on your interpretation? What authority do you submit yourself to?

St.Augustine
"Your design clearly is to deprive Scripture of all authority and to make every man’s mind the authority of what he is to approve or disapprove of. This is not to be subject to Scripture, but to make Scripture subject to you. If you discard authority, to what, I beseech you, will you take yourself?" (Reply to Faustus the Manichaean, 32:19 [A.D. 400])

The Catholic Church has been set apart for the very mission of revealing Truth, not you or any other Christian community!

You started out saying that the teaching of invincible ignorance was not taught till the 18th century.

Your claim has been shown to be a false one by the likes of St. Justin Mayrtr, St.John Chrysostom, St. Augustine, and St.Thomas Aquinas all expressed views that are outside the Normative mode of salvation.

You then ask to show it in scripture again it was shown in the writings of St.Paul in his letter to the Romans

Romans 2:13-16, “For it is not the hearers of the Law who are righteous before God, but the doers of the Law who will be justified. **When Gentiles who have not the Law do by nature what the Law requires, they are a law to themselves, even though they do not have the Law. They show that what the Law requires is written on their hearts, while their conscience also bears witness and their conflicting thoughts accuse or perhaps excuse them on that day **when, according to my gospel, God judges the secrets of men by Christ Jesus.”

I gave you links to commentaries that agree with the notion of Invincible ignorance, that at the very least show the seeds of the doctrine, some flat out agree with the modern day Catholic teaching, yet you submit to YOU. You are your final authority, your own pope, and your own infallible interpreter.

Truth be told the doctrine never stated they WILL be saved, but that it is possible in the first place, but you in your own private judgment seem to know better.

Can any non-catholic Christian group present a working Epistemology outside of perhaps the Easter Orthodox Church? Or are they all a man made social construct within Christendom with elements of Truth.

As far as what you have written over the past few weeks, it is apparent that you are very close to the Catholic deposit if faith, in much of your thinking, praise God for that!

I emplore you to keep asking some of the more difficult questions, but you must ask yourself, would this keep you from converting? If so, follow your conscience

 

[steve_b]

Steve, this seems to be the point of our Protestant friend. If God wills that everyone comes to the Truth, Jesus whom is the Truth, then we must admit that everyone has the ability to do so as you yourself claim above, regardless of their upbringing. Ultimately, one has to choose. The “invincible ignorance” card is played way too often, IMO. I believe the Church’s teaching on Invincible Ignorance and Baptism of Desire but I think both have been hijacked by those that don’t want to admit that other faiths lead souls to Hell if that faith practices idolatry or does not worship the Trinity. In today’s day and age, you would be hard pressed to find a Jew that has not heard of Jesus and the Christian truth of Him. Does it matter if they are tainted by a lie thrusted upon them when growing up; I think not. Just as a Catholic has no valid reason to claim that the world lied to him about moral truths and could not overcome it.

As a Catholic, I kind of struggle with this since many other Catholics will say that we don’t need to convert the Jews because they are saved under the OT Covenant. This is very frustrating and kills the reason to preach the Gospel. No one is saved under the OT Covenant. Jews must accept Christ for salvation, just as everyone else, correct? The same arguments are made for Muslims, since they “worship the one true God”. And on and on and on.

I have heard many Saints talk about the evils that temp a soul at death and that a person that lived their life in a lie and against God will not overcome that at death, but just the opposite happens. This is why we are to pray for Final Perseverance or a Holy Death.

To me, this wishy washy teaching (and I don’t mean the one by Mother Church) is a product of lack of faith, lack of trust in God and His teachings when He clearly lays out the criteria for salvation. A loop hole is created so that relativism can creep in. It seems like this teaching can fall into the Sin of Human Respect since it primarily exists to not offend others. The Church clearly says that one must have “INVINCIBLE IGNORANCE”, meaning nothing could overcome it. One’s pride, allegiance to a heritage, apathy or sloth is a choice that does not fall under this doctrine since all are sins if done against God and Truth.

Again, my understanding is that Baptism of Desire applies to those that have never heard the Gospel preached to them, but not those who have heard it and rejected it because their hearts were not convinced due to some action or flaw in the person preaching it. Why else would Christ say this…“Whoever causes one of these little ones who believe in me to sin, it would be better for him if a great millstone were put around his neck and he were thrown into the sea.”, if the person being scandalized was not “really” lead astray and was saved anyway?

Can you help me better understand by addressing my concerns specifically what Invincible Ignorance and Baptism of Desire means according to Scripture and Tradition and not just the 1950+ thought on them? God bless!

Thanks.

Re: invincible ignorance, one could use the example of a person with low IQ. No matter what is done, they won’t understand many things…true? I’m not suggesting invincible ignorance is limited to low IQ, I’m just using that as an example

Re: Baptism of desire, I would use as an example, an RCIA candidate, who is not baptised, who is going through the program, desres to be baptised, and gets in a fatal car accident before he completes the process of becoming Catholic.

 

[Erick_Ybarra]

But you realize the priest in the video is opened to thinking of muslims as saved who do know the gospel.

 

[onemangang]

But you realize the priest in the video is opened to thinking of muslims as saved who do know the gospel.

Ok, so?

It’s one individual priest, who also said in his interview with Larry King that Jesus is the only way for salvation and that people may obtain salvation through Christ without any EXPLICIT belief in Him. Do Catholics some up the whole of their faith in this single priest? No

Let’s do the same with the other participant, John MacArthur : Chritians believe Christ died for some, in once saved, always saved, and in dispensationalism!

 

[shocktrooper]

Re: invincible ignorance, one could use the example of a person with low IQ. No matter what is done, they won’t understand many things…true? I’m not suggesting invincible ignorance is limited to low IQ, I’m just using that as an example

Re: Baptism of desire, I would use as an example, an RCIA candidate, who is not baptised, who is going through the program, desres to be baptised, and gets in a fatal car accident before he completes the process of becoming Catholic.

Thank you Steve. I do share your understanding in both of these examples. Do you think both of these doctrines have been abused in many ways to push the idea that just about anyone or everyone will be saved under the umbrella of these teachings, far exceeding their original intent? I do also know that a teaching can evolve in a way where it does not contradict anything previously said but from what I have read, the Church has never officially expanded on these teachings but simply uses the term “invincible ignorance” as it was used in the past.

And if you agree with me on this, then do you see how thinking that these teachings apply to just about everyone stifles the passion to evangelize? I think we see this very clearly with the “Year of Faith” coming up in the Church. We have failed for so long to evangelize because of the “indifference” that has crept in (every year should be the year of faith), that we now have to dedicate a whole year to teaching ourselves the truth so that we can teach others properly. It is kind of sad but at least the problem has been identified and things are on tract to being fixed.

Pax Christi

 

[Jerry-Jet]

God gives EVERYONE sufficient grace to avoid going to Hell but he doesn’t give efficacious grace so that everyone will not go to Hell.

God predestines the elect to heaven–ANYONE who goes to Hell goes there by his own choice after being given SUFFICIENT grace to not go to Hell.

The ELECT are given efficacious grace to persevere and go to heaven.

Double predestination and predestination to Hell taught by Calvin means that God is a monster and is the author of sin which is not true!

It is my opinion and I truly believe that it is in concert with Catholic teaching that one day heresies such as Double predestination and justification by faith alone will be sent to Hell with the devil where they belong!

 

[Ion]

But you realize the priest in the video is opened to thinking of muslims as saved who do know the gospel.

Mr. Erick, can you please tell us how the rich are saved in their richness?
I wont let it go, you refuse to answer “hard” questions…

 

[TarkanAttila]

My job is to submit to Gods truth. And that truth is that the unbelieving are going to fall under the judgement of God unless they repent and believe the gospel. Thus is why we have mission. It is a mission of salvation, not a helping alongside of everyones path to god.

How do you not understand this? YOU are not responsible for getting someone to Heaven. That’s God’s job. And God can get someone to Heaven however He likes. The ordinary way is conversion, and we must not assume anything less. However, to limit God and say He is incapable of saving someone who dies without knowingly converting is to say God is not all-powerful.

You have the exact same problem with infants. Infants cannot intellectually assent to the Christian faith. If they die before doing so, are they damned to Hell? Of course not, because it is not their fault that they cannot assent to God. Similarly, some people cannot wrap their heads around the concept of God and cannot assent to Him or His Son Jesus Christ - whether because they’re simply not smart enough, or God has prevented them from knowing. This is called invisible ignorance.

We must never assume invincible ignorance. However, invincible ignorance cannot be ruled out due to God’s omnipotence and mercy. Invincible ignorance only means that we cannot say for certain whether non-Catholics are damned. It does not mean they are certainly saved. By no means.

 

[onemangang]

How do you not understand this? YOU are not responsible for getting someone to Heaven. That’s God’s job. And God can get someone to Heaven however He likes. The ordinary way is conversion, and we must not assume anything less. However, to limit God and say He is incapable of saving someone who dies without knowingly converting is to say God is not all-powerful.

You have the exact same problem with infants. Infants cannot intellectually assent to the Christian faith. If they die before doing so, are they damned to Hell? Of course not, because it is not their fault that they cannot assent to God. Similarly, some people cannot wrap their heads around the concept of God and cannot assent to Him or His Son Jesus Christ - whether because they’re simply not smart enough, or God has prevented them from knowing. This is called invisible ignorance.

We must never assume invincible ignorance. However, invincible ignorance cannot be ruled out due to God’s omnipotence and mercy. Invincible ignorance only means that we cannot say for certain whether non-Catholics are damned. It does not mean they are certainly saved. By no means.

not to mention the non-catholic Christians that are of age of reason that think baptism is an outward expression and don’t get baptized till their 20’s and 30’s

 

[Erick_Ybarra]

Why didn’t God make a covenant with the whole world then? Why did God leave the Egyptians out of the plan of salvation for Israel?

Was it because Israel was more righteous than the rest? Was it because Israel chose the right God whereas the others did not?

As St. Paul said God chose that Esau would not get the birthright but Jacob would before they did anything good or evil, before they were born.

And St Paul also said that God committed Israel to disobedience so that we could be blessed. How do you get around that?

 

[Ion]

Mr. Erick, can you please tell us how the rich are saved in their richness?
I wont let it go, you refuse to answer “hard” questions…

???

 

[shocktrooper]

Why didn’t God make a covenant with the whole world then?

Erick, the New Covenant does pertain to the whole world. Please don’t think the salvation Christ delivered is limited to a certain group. All are called!

Pax Christi

 

[Erick_Ybarra]

Yes but this is a blessing reached to the nations in Christ Jesus when He laid down his life for the world.

One of the comments made by Jerry Jet was that God gives everyone sufficient grace to go to heaven when they die.

And what about Paul who says in 1 Corinthian 1:18-31

For seeing that in the wisdom of God the world through its wisdom knew not God, it was God’s good pleasure through the foolishness of the preaching to save them that believe.

22 Seeing that Jews ask for signs, and Greeks seek after wisdom:

23 but we preach Christ crucified, unto Jews a stumblingblock, and unto Gentiles foolishness;

24 but unto them that are called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God, and the wisdom of God.

Do you see that the “called” are in a different category than everyone else? This is referring to the elect. Not everyone is “called” in this sense. In the gospel writers, everyone is “called” But the word is used differently from Paul than the other writers.

So, I object. Not everyone is salvifically and effectually called, if you are arguing that they are.

And I would say that everyone has the obligation to obey God in order to go to heaven, but all are “under sin” and the only remedy for this is the grace of our Lord Jesus granting salvation through the gospel. Not found in any idolatrous belief system, but our evangelization of the nations beginning in Jerusalem.

Anyone excluded from this reach cannot obtain salvation, not as my own opinion, but because God has chosen His elect to be “called” in this life through the “gospel”.

 

[onemangang]

Yes but this is a blessing reached to the nations in Christ Jesus when He laid down his life for the world.

Did He die to make Salvation possible for all men?
Was his atonement sufficient to save all men?

One of the comments made by Jerry Jet was that God gives everyone sufficient grace to go to heaven when they die.

He then spoke about efficacious grace. It might be two people talking past each other here. Do you understand the Catholic meaning, and differentiation between sufficient and efficacious grace?
calledtocommunion.com/2011/12/lawrence-feingold-on-sufficient-and-efficacious-grace/

And what about Paul who says in 1 Corinthian 1:18-31

For seeing that in the wisdom of God the world through its wisdom knew not God, it was God’s good pleasure through the foolishness of the preaching to save them that believe.

22 Seeing that Jews ask for signs, and Greeks seek after wisdom:

23 but we preach Christ crucified, unto Jews a stumblingblock, and unto Gentiles foolishness;

24 but unto them that are called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God, and the wisdom of God.

Do you see that the “called” are in a different category than everyone else? This is referring to the elect. Not everyone is “called” in this sense. In the gospel writers, everyone is “called” But the word is used differently from Paul than the other writers.

Ok, so you speak of the Elect, can we know who is elect, and who is not with certainty?

If not, then why argue about God saving men outside of a normative way?

So, I object. Not everyone is salvifically and effectually called, if you are arguing that they are.

This may be due to language and meaning, when defining terms that may seem foreign to non-catholics

Perhaps you have thoughts pertaining to an active or passive will?
If so… calledtocommunion.com/2012/09/did-the-council-of-trent-contradict-the-second-council-of-orange/

And I would say that everyone has the obligation to obey God in order to go to heaven, but all are “under sin” and the only remedy for this is the grace of our Lord Jesus granting salvation through the gospel. Not found in any idolatrous belief system, but our evangelization of the nations beginning in Jerusalem.

Anyone excluded from this reach cannot obtain salvation, not as my own opinion, but because God has chosen His elect to be “called” in this life through the “gospel”.

Does God give each man sufficient grace to follow?
If not, does He predestine men to Hell?

God bless!

 

[Erick_Ybarra]

This is mystery in God that we can’t speculate too much on.

We know that God’s elect are only saved by faith in Him. This has been the case from Adam until the last human being. And He cannot be found in false religion. Sorry.