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onemangang
Guest
Right, agreed He can’t be found in a false religion, but it is possible for those that are lost in a false religion to be found by Him.
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Erick_Ybarra
Guest
Yes it is. Absolutely. We as Christian die to see this happen in peoples lives.
but it never happens apart from God revealing Himself to them in a special unique way that is in absolute contrast to their false religion.
but it never happens apart from God revealing Himself to them in a special unique way that is in absolute contrast to their false religion.
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onemangang
Guest
I can agree, whole heartedly with your statement here, for a change
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steve_b
Guest
I think the caveots, and exemptions and qualifications to terms and definitions, are clearly laid out in the CCC. And we know some people, will see huge liberties where there are not, and make excuses for bad behavior, under the guise of compassion when in reality it’s wrong headed thinking… .right?
Here’s how ignorance is handled in the CCC
ccc.scborromeo.org.master.com/texis/master/search/?sufs=0&q=ignorance&xsubmit=Search&s=SS
And conscience (a much bigger subject)
ccc.scborromeo.org.master.com/texis/master/search/?sufs=0&q=conscience&xsubmit=Search&s=SS
s:
The internet is full of agendas, and just because a site may appear to be “Catholic” doesn’t necessarily mean they are following Church teaching. And if one is not solid in their faith, they can’t discriminate between good and bad information. That’s why I like primary documentation.
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TarkanAttila
Guest
Are you an atheist all of a sudden, or a Christian? Do you also believe God doing evil to the people of Israel must mean He is a morally corrupt being like we are?
Why did God choose twelve essentially street people to start His New Kingdom on Earth? God chooses the least worthy of recognition. He chooses sinners. He chooses the backwards, and the poor and downtrodden. He chooses the ignorant. (Which is why we hope in His mercy for those who never saw Him nor knew Him.)
He makes the weakest stronger, so they can make others stronger. Do you see all of the rich, self-righteous, and seemingly perfect people out there? It’s a façade. No man of the world, seemingly stronger than you or I, is really. He’s just as fragile as a clay doll, like you or I. He’s just as clueless as you or I. He worries as much as you or I. He sins as much as you or I. He would not be human if this were not true.
So, then, why Israel and why them alone? Because they were so much more useless?
Some Catholic scholars, like Scott Hahn and Jeff Cavins, seem to think that God was making something of a progression with Israelite history. It began with one couple (Adam and Eve). Then it became several couples, a family (Noe). Then it became several families, a tribe (Abraham). Then it became twelve tribes, a nation. Then a much larger nation under David, with alliance with some pagan nations like the Moabites. Then finally, all nations and empires under Jesus Christ, High Priest and King. Not that He was not capable of uniting us all in one instant.
That just seems to be the trend. I honestly don’t know exactly why God chose to do it that way.
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Bookcat
Guest
Does the Church teach basically that it is * possible* that a person who say has never heard the Gospel – to be saved by a grace “known only to God” (Still by Jesus Christ…if they are saved --it is important to note)? Yes.
Does if follow that most of all non-Christians *will *in fact be saved in such a way? Such is not the Teaching of the Church. God is the one to know who is saved in this way…
Are those who are “so saved” are they saved “by” say any idols or errors? No. Most certainly not. Are they saved “by” their good works despite their errors etc? No --one does not receive initial justification by “good works”. Tis by grace.
Anyone who is saved is saved by Jesus Christ. (and even those who have never heard his name --who in the end are saved are saved by him).
So the fact that it is “possible” for someone to be saved in the end as noted --(that God can do such) does that mean that the Church can forget about evangelization? No.
We are to proclaim the Gospel --the person of Jesus of Nazareth. Who is the Risen Lord.
In him is true life.
Does if follow that most of all non-Christians *will *in fact be saved in such a way? Such is not the Teaching of the Church. God is the one to know who is saved in this way…
Are those who are “so saved” are they saved “by” say any idols or errors? No. Most certainly not. Are they saved “by” their good works despite their errors etc? No --one does not receive initial justification by “good works”. Tis by grace.
Anyone who is saved is saved by Jesus Christ. (and even those who have never heard his name --who in the end are saved are saved by him).
So the fact that it is “possible” for someone to be saved in the end as noted --(that God can do such) does that mean that the Church can forget about evangelization? No.
We are to proclaim the Gospel --the person of Jesus of Nazareth. Who is the Risen Lord.
In him is true life.
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TarkanAttila
Guest
^ This.
A person is not saved by his false gods. If he is saved, he is saved in spite of it. He is saved from the false gods.
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Erick_Ybarra
Guest
But your still confessing that someone can be saved in their mortal sin
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Bookcat
Guest
God does that every day.
A person is in mortal sin.
And then they are given true life in Christ.
God can do this even in a case where one has not say heard the name of Jesus – one “can” be saved through grace in ways that God knows. Jesus can indeed give life to a person even where they have had not chance to hear of him. Or where they have heard things that were not true.
By nature --such* does not lend itself to our field of vision*.
As for the Church – the Church is about the proclaiming of Christ!
And it is important to note that even though this is possible and lets say in the case of “Sam” this will happen — Sam still is deprived of so much in this life by not knowing Jesus Christ and the bounty of the Church here and now.
He is waiting to encounter Christ …to hear his name…
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Tantum_ergo
Guest
Um, no.
If a person is worshipping false non Christian gods, and continues to do so because he never knows Jesus, he isn’t sinning mortally, is he? Mortal sin requires full knowledge that what you are doing is wrong.
If a person worships false non Christian gods but is told of “Jesus” --only what he is told is something false, such as that Jesus was just a great prophet, and he never learns anything different and still worships a false god, again, he isn’t sinning mortally. Just hearing the name “Jesus” doesn’t mean you ‘know’ Jesus.
Finally, if a person worships false gods even though he not only knows the ‘real’ truth of Jesus and acknowledges it as truth, that person is sinning mortally, but if the person repents before he dies and God forgives him (which of course we would not ‘see’ because only God knows the ‘heart’ of a person), then that person has not died in mortal sin.
You still seem stuck on the false idea that “Non Christian who dies is automatically condemned to hell for mortal sin” without acknowledging that the non Christian may not be sinning at all, or may have repented and been forgiven before death.
How can you try to limit God by saying that He cannot save a person who had no chance to know Him?
How can you try to limit God by saying that He cannot save a person who might have heard His name but never heard the TRUTH about Him, and thus never ‘knowingly’ sinned against Him?
How can you try to limit God by saying that He cannot save even a person in mortal sin if the person sincerely repents even at the instant before death?
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Erick_Ybarra
Guest
- For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness;
20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:
21 Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened.
22 Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools,
23 And changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man, and to birds, and fourfooted beasts, and creeping things.*
In this passage of Scripture, Paul teaches that Pagans and idolaters have no excuse to continue in their sin. They must repent from this in order to experience salvation
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Bookcat
Guest
We are talking about things that WE do not by nature know. But that* God knows*.
Can he in his grace save someone who has never heard of the Name of Jesus? Yes.
HE can.
Do we see necessarily how he does this? No.
It could be even in the last moments of life…
Can he in his grace save someone who has never heard of the Name of Jesus? Yes.
HE can.
Do we see necessarily how he does this? No.
It could be even in the last moments of life…
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Erick_Ybarra
Guest
That has never been my problem,
my problem is when someone says that someone can be saved and yet they die in an unrepentant unbroken lifestyle steeped in idolatry.
my problem is when someone says that someone can be saved and yet they die in an unrepentant unbroken lifestyle steeped in idolatry.
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Bookcat
Guest
Remember if they are saved --it is not that their errors saved them. It is the grace of God. It is Jesus Christ. In a manner known to God. Not necessarily to us on this forum.
And the truth they may find or goodness they may find – is a preparation for the Gospel.
And the truth they may find or goodness they may find – is a preparation for the Gospel.
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Bookcat
Guest
For our eyes – perhaps such is difficult.
But such is not impossible for God --who in their last moments can come with his grace.
Unseen by us.
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Erick_Ybarra
Guest
If they die believing in the god of their false religion, Romans 1 condemns them and will be their judge, they are without excuse (Rom 1:18-32).
This is the voice of St. Paul. They are “without excuse” (v20-24)
This is the voice of St. Paul. They are “without excuse” (v20-24)
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Bookcat
Guest
Can one die in a way where they are “without excuse” and die away from God --that being their choice? Yes sadly so.
There is too it seems also a context of St. Paul’s words in Romans 1 that seems to be missed – that God can reach them prior to knowledge of or hearing of the name of Jesus Christ.
Those among the ancient pagans --who did in fact honor God and give thanks to him – without knowing anything he revealed via divine revelation --did so by a grace that came to them without such knowledge.
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Erick_Ybarra
Guest
Sure, I have no problem with that.
However, what we are speaking about here is that people who believe in Islamic theology, hindu theolgies, buddhistic principles, etc,etc and never repenting from them to search for the true God.
The true God is not hidden in Islam or in hinduism
However, what we are speaking about here is that people who believe in Islamic theology, hindu theolgies, buddhistic principles, etc,etc and never repenting from them to search for the true God.
The true God is not hidden in Islam or in hinduism
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Tantum_ergo
Guest
Wait, I have a question. Just who has said this? Not the Catholic Church, not I. . .not scores of other posters. . .
In fact, over and over I personally have stressed the fact that the person must repent at least at the moment of death. So have scores of other posters. . .
So it puzzles me. Who is claiming what you state, and why are you addressing others of us who are not claiming that as if we were?
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Erick_Ybarra
Guest
Watch the video
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