Is this rejecting Christ ?

[Bookcat]

Sure, I have no problem with that.

However, what we are speaking about here is that people who believe in Islamic theology, hindu theolgies, buddhistic principles, etc,etc and never repenting from them to search for the true God.
The true God is not hidden in Islam or in hinduism

We are speaking here of persons who through no fault of their own have not come to know Christ --and to believe in him. That it is possible for Jesus to give them grace in manners we do not know --that it *possible *for *him *to save them --to give them life in himself in ways we do not know despite errors they have been taught.

We cannot see what God does within a person… even in the last moments of natural life.

And as I have noted – the way of the Church is to proclaim the Gospel – so that all may have salvation --have true life even now – in Jesus of Nazareth the Risen Lord.

 

[Bookcat]

I do not have time nor desire to watch the video.

 

[Bookcat]

We are speaking here of persons who through no fault of their own have not come to know Christ --and to believe in him. That it is possible for Jesus to give them grace in manners we do not know --that it *possible *for *him *to save them --to give them life in himself in ways we do not know despite errors they have been taught.

We cannot see what God does within a person… even in the last moments of natural life.

And as I have noted – the way of the Church is to proclaim the Gospel – so that all may have salvation --have true life even now – in Jesus of Nazareth the Risen Lord.

And we are speaking of other acts of God --where God can give grace in ways we simply do not know.

 

[Erick_Ybarra]

I understand. But what the priest said is that Muslims if they are good people, go to heaven. Just like that.

And he even said that he could learn from Islam.

 

[Bookcat]

I understand. But what the priest said is that Muslims if they are good people, go to heaven. Just like that.

And he even said that he could learn from Islam.

I did not watch the video. But* abstracting* from the video (and giving the Priest the benefit of the doubt as to what he was seeking to say or saying --sometimes even priests can choose the wrong words etc)

Is it the Teaching of the Church that per se “Muslims if they are good people- they go to heaven”? No that is not the Teaching of the Catholic Church.

Can we learn from Islam? Sure just as we can learn from many things. Whatever is true and good we recognize --whatever is not we reject.

To give an example --part of what brought about the conversion to Christ of one Blessed was his living among Muslims for a period of time. Perhaps from seeing the example of the Muslims faithfulness to praying so many times a day where -ever they were etc.

 

[onemangang]

It was one clip out of context. If you watched the entire show, the priest says that Christ is the only way, but one may not EXPLICITY know him.

As far as learning from Islam, he talked about being moved by their devotion to prayer 5 times a day, plus fasting if I recollect correct!

The culture in Islam has zeal that Christians in the U.S lack.

So he is not saying the Church teaches that muslims will be saved in their religion, what he did is give a personal point of view.

The priest is basically trusting in God to be merciful with those who don’t EXPLICITLY know Christ, but follow their conscience. He is assuming that our loving and merciful, Long Suffering Father, will have mercy on them!

You have really made a mountain out of a mole hill on this thread in my opinion.

It points to a deeper reality of culture and tradition. Many Catholics view God as a loving Father, (hence much of the arguments over justification) while many so called “Reformed” Christians view God as a Judge.

Im sure one can draw many parallels between Lordship Salvation Calvinist and Radical Muslims in their view of God as a judge

 

[Erick_Ybarra]

Paul.says that our Lord Jesus Christ will come again ''in flaming fire inflicting vengeance on those who donor know God, and on those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus. Thee will be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence if the Lord and from the glory of His power. ‘’ (2 thess 1:9).

Is God a father? Yes indeed. Towards his children he is their father. Those which are obedient.

Do you see how the catholic teaching on the necessity of works for justification doesn’t even match in the amount if devotion and obedience that protestants have who believe in a justification by faith alone?

 

[Bookcat]

Paul.says that our Lord Jesus Christ will come again ''in flaming fire inflicting vengeance on those who donor know God, and on those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus. Thee will be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence if the Lord and from the glory of His power. ‘’ (2 thess 1:9).

Yes.

And God knows each person --and will judge each one as he knows them intimately.

For example --lets take young child who is taught by his parents that Christ is the devil and is out to harm him …and to thus stay away from him. So he does what his parents say believing such is the will of God. This child does though respond by grace to the graces God gives him and seeks him as he finds him --seeking to know God as he can and do his will. God can give him grace --true life in Christ in ways other than the normal way (explicit Faith and Baptism et al). If he is saved and ends this world in grace --such would still be by Jesus – he would know his life before knowing him and come to know him when he suddenly dies still as a young child.

Such is a different case that say if I where to reject Christ and say go into some gravely sinful way of life and die rejecting Christ.

 

[Bookcat]

Do you see how the catholic teaching on the necessity of works for justification doesn’t even match in the amount if devotion and obedience that protestants have who believe in a justification by faith alone?

NOTHING – no works --neither “of the Law” nor otherwise earns one entrance into a state of justification. Catholic, Protestant or whoever.

Pope Benedict XVI on the subjects of Faith and Works in St. Paul

vatican.va/holy_father/benedict_xvi/audiences/2008/documents/hf_ben-xvi_aud_20081119_en.html

vatican.va/holy_father/benedict_xvi/audiences/2008/documents/hf_ben-xvi_aud_20081126_en.html (scroll down)

Plus earlier one:

vatican.va/holy_father/benedict_xvi/audiences/2006/documents/hf_ben-xvi_aud_20061108_en.html

 

[onemangang]

Paul.says that our Lord Jesus Christ will come again ''in flaming fire inflicting vengeance on those who donor know God, and on those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus. Thee will be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence if the Lord and from the glory of His power. ‘’ (2 thess 1:9).

Is God a father? Yes indeed. Towards his children he is their father. Those which are obedient.

Do you see how the catholic teaching on the necessity of works for justification doesn’t even match in the amount if devotion and obedience that protestants have who believe in a justification by faith alone?

And You KNOW who belong to Him and who dont

Right, many protestants have a much more deep works based salvation, being that they can never truly know they have received Christ, so many try to outwardly show it, to convince others and themselves of their “faith”

Thats why you meet so many Catholics who have found Peace with in the Church because, they KNOW, they have received Christ there!

 

[Erick_Ybarra]

I guess we will have to agree to disagree at the moment. I cannot deny what I think is true. For my understanding is that belief and submission and repentance to the true God is necessary for heaven. And not an encrypted hidden revelation of himself in Islam or Hinduism, but a belief that forsakes idols and submits to the truth. Not necessarily everything in the creeds but a true forsaking of false idols and pseudo gods for the real one

 

[Bookcat]

For my understanding is that belief and submission and repentance to the true God is necessary for heaven. And not an encrypted hidden revelation of himself in Islam or Hinduism, but a belief that forsakes idols and submits to the truth. Not necessarily everything in the creeds but a true forsaking of false idols and pseudo gods for the real one

Again it is NOT about Islam or Hinduism -it is about the* power* of God.

That it is* possible* for God to reach even those who have embraced errors – in a manner which God knows and we do not see.

(it is to be noted too that while Islam is incorrect about various things they too seek the one God …the God of Abraham. Though they of course have many mistaken ideas about him. But that is a different subject)

 

[Bookcat]

Is one to repent and to reject ones errors etc and turn to the true and living God – to believe in Jesus Christ and be Baptized into him? Absolutely.

Is it possible that there can be those who for example through no fault of their own do not come to know him and who say are brought up believing something that is in error --even very greatly in error – and whom God still in a way known only to him – gives grace and brings them to salvation in Christ even though they never hear on earth his name or only heard a distorted idea of him? Yes.

Does this possibility mean that the Church need not evangelize or be concerned for the salvation of others who embrace other beliefs? Absolutely not. Such is the mission of the Church --to proclaim Christ --to make disciples of all the nations…to bring the fullness of life to them in Christ. Indeed it is the primary task.

“The Church’s commitment to evangelization can never be lacking, since according to his own promise, the presence of the Lord Jesus in the power of the Holy Spirit will never be absent from her: “I am with you always, even until the end of the world” (Mt 28:20). The relativism and irenicism prevalent today in the area of religion are not valid reasons for failing to respond to the difficult, but awe-inspiring commitment which belongs to the nature of the Church herself and is indeed the Church’s “primary task”.[54] “Caritas Christi urget nos – the love of Christ impels us” (2 Cor 5:14): the lives of innumerable Catholics bear witness to this truth. Throughout the entire history of the Church, people motivated by the love of Jesus have undertaken initiatives and works of every kind in order to proclaim the Gospel to the entire world and in all sectors of society, as a perennial reminder and invitation to every Christian generation to fulfill with generosity the mandate of Christ. Therefore, as Pope Benedict XVI recalls, “the proclamation of and witness to the Gospel are the first service that Christians can render to every person and to the entire human race, called as they are to communicate to all God’s love, which was fully manifested in Jesus Christ, the one Redeemer of the world”” (CDF 2007)

 

[Erick_Ybarra]

What do you mean its not about islam or Hinduism? It has everything to do with that. For this is what stands in the way of them and God. Why do you think the Jews viewed the gentiles as blind and cut off from God?

This new catholic teaching against ancient Jewish views of God

 

[Erick_Ybarra]

What do you mean its not about islam or Hinduism? It has everything to do with that. For this is what stands in the way of them and God. Why do you think the Jews viewed the gentiles as blind and cut off from God?

This new catholic teaching against ancient Jewish views of God

 

[Bookcat]

What do you mean its not about islam or Hinduism? It has everything to do with that. For this is what stands in the way of them and God.

God is able to overcome things that “stand in the way”. In ways known to God not to you or to me.

He is God.

It is simply not about any of the other religions or lack there of …necessarily.

It is possible for the grace of God in a manner known only to him…to reach anyone.

Knowing this reality – means that yes God can work in ways we do not see. Such does not change the task of the Church --given to the Church by Christ –to proclaim the Gospel to the ends of the earth…

The fact that God can work in ways other than those which he gave the Church to carry out – does not change the reality of the task of the Church nor the normative necessity to repent and believe the Gospel et al.

 

[Bookcat]

God is able to overcome things that “stand in the way”. In ways known to God not to you or to me.

He is God.

It is simply not about any of the other religions or lack there of …necessarily.

It is possible for the grace of God in a manner known only to him…to reach anyone (c.f Luke 1:37)

Knowing this reality – means that yes God can work in ways we do not see. Such does not change the task of the Church --given to the Church by Christ –to proclaim the Gospel to the ends of the earth…

The fact that God can work in ways other than those which he gave the Church to carry out – does not change the reality of the task of the Church nor the normative necessity to repent and believe the Gospel et al.

 

[Bookcat]

"“Caritas Christi urget nos” (2 Cor 5:14): it is the love of Christ that fills our hearts and impels us to evangelize. Today as in the past, he sends us through the highways of the world to proclaim his Gospel to all the peoples of the earth (cf. Mt 28:19). Through his love, Jesus Christ attracts to himself the people of every generation: in every age he convokes the Church, entrusting her with the proclamation of the Gospel by a mandate that is ever new. "

Pope Benedict XVI Porta Fidei

 

[Tantum_ergo]

Watch the video

I read the transcription. The priest **did not say that a Muslim or Jew (and he was particular there to address those two, who DO acknowledge the FATHER) would be allowed to enter heaven without ‘knowing the Son’ or, as you phrase it, ‘steeped in worship of their false gods and in mortal sin’. **

He said that he personally was of the opinion that such a person who by knowing the FATHER would ALSO know the Son EVEN IF THEY DID NOT REALIZE IT, because THE FATHER IS NOT SEPARATED FROM THE SON and that they might be saved. But the priest did not say that they would be saved automatically, or without having ‘repented’ if you will before death. He said that God could save such a person in a way we do not understand **and really, that is quite correct. **

Again, Erick, nobody **but you **is saying that the teachings of the Catholic Church which address the possibility of salvation for nonChristians, specifically Jews and Muslims is a ‘new teaching’ which ‘rejects Christ.’

The priest (in a 28 second ‘shot’ on You Tube, out of context) did not say Jews and Muslims could be saved without accepting or knowing Christ somehow. He said that God could save them in a way we would not know. ONE at least of those ways could be by allowing these people knowledge of Christ at the moment of their death which would allow them to accept Christ. Why is that so hard for you to understand or accept?

The Catholic Church says that knowing and accepting Christ is the normal way. A person who never knows Christ on earth obviously could not ‘normally’ accept Him (which is why evangelization is important. Just because God CAN save a person who does not know Christ does not mean WE should not be making every effort we can to bring Christ to all people). . .but we are not Calvinists who believe that God creates certain people who will be ‘predestined’ to hell because they never knew Him. And yes, you can ‘know’ the words ‘Jesus Christ’ and still not know Him. People can hear all sorts of lies. If you were told Jesus was a made-up character, how could you ‘know’ Him, and how could it be said you 'rejected Him?

 

[steve_b]

I understand. But what the priest said is that Muslims if they are good people, go to heaven. Just like that.

And he even said that he could learn from Islam.

I didn’t hear him say that in that 20 second clip.