Is this salvation a heresy?

[Axiombob]

I went to a Mass yesterday that was out of my area. In fact it was near a college, catering to a younger crowd, so I expected some loosening in ritual. But what the priest had to say shocked me.

He said that anyone who rejects God “sincerely” will also go to heaven since they were not given the gift of faith. He said that they will reach heaven as long as they rejected Christ with a clear conscience. The idea is that these nonbelievers live to the best of their moral ability and conscience.

Furthermore, he said that followers of other religions will also see heaven as long as they follow what they believed to be God (or their standard of morality) with a clear conscience

These were examples he used in his homily to refute the protestant claim that a relationship with Jesus is the absolute requirement for heaven. He claimed that Catholics were more compassionate with other faiths for this reason.

Now I digested this in my head wondering if I heard it wrong. I asked my family if they heard the same thing. They said they couldn’t follow his line of reasoning, so they stopped listening. He was difficult for me to follow as well. Nonetheless, if indeed, that is what he said, then isn’t it heresy.

I know of baptism by desire and baptism by blood, but I understand it differently from what is written above.

Am I wrong?

 

[marty1818]

Here is what the Catechism has to say:

“Outside the Church there is no salvation”

[846](javascript:OpenPopupWindow() How are we to understand this affirmation, often repeated by the Church Fathers?335 Re-formulated positively, it means that all salvation comes from Christ the Head through the Church which is his Body:

Basing itself on Scripture and Tradition, the Council teaches that the Church, a pilgrim now on earth, is necessary for salvation: the one Christ is the mediator and the way of salvation; he is present to us in his body which is the Church. He himself explicitly asserted the necessity of faith and Baptism, and thereby affirmed at the same time the necessity of the Church which men enter through Baptism as through a door. Hence they could not be saved who, knowing that the Catholic Church was founded as necessary by God through Christ, would refuse either to enter it or to remain in it.336

847 This affirmation is not aimed at those who, through no fault of their own, do not know Christ and his Church:

Those who, through no fault of their own, do not know the Gospel of Christ or his Church, but who nevertheless seek God with a sincere heart, and, moved by grace, try in their actions to do his will as they know it through the dictates of their conscience—those too may achieve eternal salvation.337

[848](javascript:OpenPopupWindow() "Although in ways known to himself God can lead those who, through no fault of their own, are ignorant of the Gospel, to that faith without which it is impossible to please him, the Church still has the obligation and also the sacred right to evangelize all men."338 matthew

 

[MilesJesu]

That is indeed a tragedy. The catechism is clear, but often it gets misunderstood along with the meaning of conscience.

According to what you said, there is no way anyone can claim that someone WILL go to heaven when the catechism states:

“nevertheless seek God with a sincere heart, and, moved by grace, try in their actions to do his will as they know it through the dictates of their conscience—those too may achieve eternal salvation”

For some reason, many folks seem to over look the three requirements of

1. 
   *]sincerely seeking God
   *]being moved by grace
   *]doing his will through the dictates of their conscience
   
   an also of the fact that if these are met, then they MAY achieve eternal salvation. How does someone who rejects God be sincerely seeking God? Your conscience (well formed) led you in the right direction.
   
   Peace,
   
   MilesJesu

 

[FuzzyBunny116]

MilesJesu:

That is indeed a tragedy. The catechism is clear, but often it gets misunderstood along with the meaning of conscience.

According to what you said, there is no way anyone can claim that someone WILL go to heaven when the catechism states:

“nevertheless seek God with a sincere heart, and, moved by grace, try in their actions to do his will as they know it through the dictates of their conscience—those too may achieve eternal salvation”

For some reason, many folks seem to over look the three requirements of

1. 
   *]sincerely seeking God
   *]being moved by grace
   *]doing his will through the dictates of their conscience
   
   an also of the fact that if these are met, then they MAY achieve eternal salvation. How does someone who rejects God be sincerely seeking God? Your conscience (well formed) led you in the right direction.
   
   Peace,
   
   MilesJesu

1. 
   I think by sincerely seeking God, he means seeking the truth, and as we all knew, Jesus is the Way, the Truth and the Life. One may have not received enough information to believe that Christianity is God’s religion and that God is real. Have you received enough information to accept, say, Islam or Hinduism or Judism? These people have faith of their own, so their reluctance to accept another religion is understanable and natural.
   
   Still coping with the term “grace.”
   
   And I just re-read…I think what the priest meant was they MAY go to Heaven if
   
   “they follow what they believed to be God (or their standard of morality) with a clear conscience”
   
   Very similiar to our requirments, really (follow the Church and Christ, now that we know him of course, too).
   
   I don’t think he meant that they WILL go to Heaven most certainly, but that it is the criteria for them to enter Heaven.

 

[Detroit_Sue]

I believe the priest was referring to Lumen Gentium:

1. Finally, those who have not yet received the Gospel are related in various ways to the people of God.(18*) In the first place we must recall the people to whom the testament and the promises were given and from whom Christ was born according to the flesh.(125) On account of their fathers this people remains most dear to God, for God does not repent of the gifts He makes nor of the calls He issues.(126); But the plan of salvation also includes those who acknowledge the Creator. In the first place amongst these there are the Mohamedans, who, professing to hold the faith of Abraham, along with us adore the one and merciful God, who on the last day will judge mankind. Nor is God far distant from those who in shadows and images seek the unknown God, for it is He who gives to all men life and breath and all things,(127) and as Saviour wills that all men be saved.(128) Those also can attain to salvation who through no fault of their own do not know the Gospel of Christ or His Church, yet sincerely seek God and moved by grace strive by their deeds to do His will as it is known to them through the dictates of conscience.(19*) Nor does Divine Providence deny the helps necessary for salvation to those who, without blame on their part, have not yet arrived at an explicit knowledge of God and with His grace strive to live a good life. Whatever good or truth is found amongst them is looked upon by the Church as a preparation for the Gospel.(20*) She knows that it is given by Him who enlightens all men so that they may finally have life. But often men, deceived by the Evil One, have become vain in their reasonings and have exchanged the truth of God for a lie, serving the creature rather than the Creator.(129) Or some there are who, living and dying in this world without God, are exposed to final despair. Wherefore to promote the glory of God and procure the salvation of all of these, and mindful of the command of the Lord, “Preach the Gospel to every creature”,(130) the Church fosters the missions with care and attention.

The entire constitution may be found here:
vatican.va/archive/hist_councils/ii_vatican_council/documents/vat-ii_const_19641121_lumen-gentium_en.html

 

[fix]

Axiombob:

I went to a Mass yesterday that was out of my area. In fact it was near a college, catering to a younger crowd, so I expected some loosening in ritual. But what the priest had to say shocked me.

He said that anyone who rejects God “sincerely” will also go to heaven since they were not given the gift of faith. He said that they will reach heaven as long as they rejected Christ with a clear conscience. The idea is that these nonbelievers live to the best of their moral ability and conscience.

Furthermore, he said that followers of other religions will also see heaven as long as they follow what they believed to be God (or their standard of morality) with a clear conscience

These were examples he used in his homily to refute the protestant claim that a relationship with Jesus is the absolute requirement for heaven. He claimed that Catholics were more compassionate with other faiths for this reason.

It seems there is often too much talk about how everyone may be saved and too little talk about the need for the zeal of evangelization.

All those martyrs who went to their death should have stayed home and taken it easy.

 

[pnewton]

fix:

It seems there is often too much talk about how everyone may be saved and too little talk about the need for the zeal of evangelization.

There is a very practical side to what you are saying. I totally accept the church’s teaching on the how those outside the visible church may still come to salvation, but so what? How does that effect my daily life? I can not. Even though God works in ways outside our knowledge, we can act on the knowledge we know. Grace, we know, comes through the sacramental life of the Church. Union with her is the way we know to receive that grace. If we love our neighbor, we would want the best for them. A sure means of salvation.

If you had a friend drowning, would you prefer to throw a life preserver to keep them a float, or a deck chair, that might float?

We can accept the church’s teaching, but we must flee indifferentism, otherwise we would best all log off now and Catholic Answer’s can close shop and go home.

 

[fix]

pnewton:

There is a very practical side to what you are saying. I totally accept the church’s teaching on the how those outside the visible church may still come to salvation, but so what? How does that effect my daily life? I can not. Even though God works in ways outside our knowledge, we can act on the knowledge we know. Grace, we know, comes through the sacramental life of the Church. Union with her is the way we know to receive that grace. If we love our neighbor, we would want the best for them. A sure means of salvation.

If you had a friend drowning, would you prefer to throw a life preserver to keep them a float, or a deck chair, that might float?

We can accept the church’s teaching, but we must flee indifferentism, otherwise we would best all log off now and Catholic Answer’s can close shop and go home.

I heard Time Drake on CA yesterday and he mentioned that we should first accept all we have in common with other religions and not start out by clubbing someone, but that start is not the end. We must go on from there. That is my position and what JPII was all about I think. Indifferentism is all too common.