Is this segregation good?

[ASD]

English Mass 9:00 AM, 10:30 AM
Spanish Mass 1:00 PM
Vietnamese Mass 5:00 PM

Segregation might be a slightly exaggerated term for that kind of separation. Maybe it’s more like the old ethnic Catholic neighborhoods in USA: The Polish had their Mass in one part of town, the Irish had theirs in another part of town, etc. Not sure which metaphor or figure of speech is best.

Anyway, I suspect that the immigrant nature of American society wasn’t much on the minds of the Council fathers, et al, who brought us vernacular Mass. (Another example of unintended consequences of social engineering?)

To me, it seems like that kind of separation of parishioners by mother tongue isn’t really consistent with the idea of a parish community. Or “Faith Community,” or whatever people say this year.

If we list pros and cons of vernacular vs. Latin, I say separation of a single parish by mother tongue is a real drawback.

Maybe others see it differently?

ASD​

Traditional Latin Mass: Translation and Grammar

 

[VociMike]

I agree, this is an unintended and very unfortunate consequence, and problematic for the Catholic parish ideal.

 

[KephasAugustine]

English Mass 9:00 AM, 10:30 AM
Spanish Mass 1:00 PM
Vietnamese Mass 5:00 PM

Segregation might be a slightly exaggerated term for that kind of separation. Maybe it’s more like the old ethnic Catholic neighborhoods in USA: The Polish had their Mass in one part of town, the Irish had theirs in another part of town, etc. Not sure which metaphor or figure of speech is best.

Anyway, I suspect that the immigrant nature of American society wasn’t much on the minds of the Council fathers, et al, who brought us vernacular Mass. (Another example of unintended consequences of social engineering?)

To me, it seems like that kind of separation of parishioners by mother tongue isn’t really consistent with the idea of a parish community. Or “Faith Community,” or whatever people say this year.

If we list pros and cons of vernacular vs. Latin, I say separation of a single parish by mother tongue is a real drawback.

Maybe others see it differently?

ASD​

Traditional Latin Mass: Translation and Grammar

Actually, I’ve always seen it as an opportunity to learn about other cultures and how they worship God. Growing up, there were English and Spanish Masses at my parish. I loved the music at the Spanish Mass; it somehow lifted my spirits more than the English Mass, where the old lady with a failing opera-esque voice crackled and screeched through her favorite rendition of “Ave Maria,” barely heard over the booming organ.
There was a large Mexican presence at my parish, and diversity was always a big deal when it came to parish events–our annual festival had a great intermingling of different cultures, and us whiteys were able to enjoy mariachi music, upbeat Spanish praise, and the cultural veneration of Mary that just doesn’t exist in the same way for white Americans (though it does exist). The Mexican parishoners, in turn, were able to enjoy classic “white-people music,” our forms of praise, and other aspects of our culture.

So no, I don’t see a problem with it. If you want a culture shock, head to a Mass of a different culture–it’s a great educational experience, and wonderful for spreading relations between completely different people with the exact same beliefs.

Also, and this is just more of my personal experience, I traveled to Europe about two years ago and went to Masses in German, Italian, Latin, and English. I followed each one perfectly. It is the same Mass, no matter what language. I knew what prayer they were on at every moment of the Mass, and received the same Body and Blood of Jesus Christ as I would at my home parish.

 

[FK04US]

I agree 100% with Kephas. It is great to have choices. I go to both, English and Spanish Masses, and both are beautiful, each with a distinct atmosphere. And it is not impediment to be together, you can go to whatever Mass you want, no Parish forces you to go to one language only Mass. We are all children of God, but we are culturally not same, and it is wonderful that the Church can address to different cultures in a unique and different way at the same time.

 

[ASD]

Actually, I’ve always seen it as an opportunity to learn about other cultures and how they worship God.

To the extent that the various language communities mix, I guess might be a fair point. You get to learn something. But,

1. 
   *]How much of that mixing really happens?
   *]Is it really a good thing that two groups of Catholics worship so differently?
   

   ASD​

   Traditional Latin Mass: Translation and Grammar

 

[ASD]

… we are culturally not same, and it is wonderful that the Church can address to different cultures in a unique and different way at the same time.

Is it? Doesn’t it make just as much sense to say that it’s wonderful that the Catholic (meaning universal, the whole truth for everybody) Church transcends all those cultural differences?

Of course a world full of different cultures is a fact of life, wonderful or not. But, why is it wonderful to bring that into Catholic liturgy?

I thought the Christian thing was, “There’s neither Jew nor Greek, slave nor free, . . …” (Gal 3:28)?

ASD​

Traditional Latin Mass: Translation and Grammar

 

[ASD]

Also, and this is just more of my personal experience, I traveled to Europe about two years ago and went to Masses in German, Italian, Latin, and English. I followed each one perfectly. It is the same Mass, no matter what language. I knew what prayer they were on at every moment of the Mass, and received the same Body and Blood of Jesus Christ as I would at my home parish.

That seems to me like a pretty powerful, empirical, fact-based argument against the vernacular!

Like, guess what? You don’t really have to have a native speaker’s grasp of every word to get the Mass. So, remind me again: what was all the fuss about Latin?

ASD​

Traditional Latin Mass: Translation and Grammar

 

[KephasAugustine]

To the extent that the various language communities mix, I guess might be a fair point. You get to learn something. But,

1. 
   *]How much of that mixing really happens?
   *]Is it really a good thing that two groups of Catholics worship so differently?
   

   ASD​

   Traditional Latin Mass: Translation and Grammar

1. 
   They don’t “worship differently” in any kind of dangerous way, as you seem to be implying. Next, do you want Catholics to create a global language so I can talk to my Chinese neighbors outside of Mass? Or do you only want that inter-mixing during the liturgy?
   
   As a worldwide Church, a global community, we are bound to have different languages, different cultures, and different customs based on the many varied histories and current situations of the many different countries. You cannot expect that we drop who we are culturally and ethnically in order to worship God. He is the God of the Mexicans, the Vietnamese, the Croatian, the German, the Scottish, the American, the Italian. He speaks to each and every one of us in our native tongue.
   
   As for your first point, I don’t know the answer on a mass (heh) scale–I can only answer for myself and my friends. We all intermixed. There were Spanish speakers at English Masses and English speakers at Spanish masses. That’s just how it was, and I imagine that that is how it is in a lot of places. Why don’t you try going to a Vietnamese Mass or Mass in some other language? You might learn something. I know I did.

 

[KephasAugustine]

That seems to me like a pretty powerful, empirical, fact-based argument against the vernacular!

Like, guess what? You don’t really have to have a native speaker’s grasp of every word to get the Mass. So, remind me again: what was all the fuss about Latin?

ASD​

Traditional Latin Mass: Translation and Grammar

Sorry, to what “fuss” are you referring?

As far as I’m concerned, Mass can be in Latin, Greek, Spanish, English, German, Italian, Portuguese, French, Icelandic, Antarctic, or what have you–so long as the correct form of the liturgy is followed, and all participants can participate fully in the Mystery of the Eucharist, unhindered by language barriers.

My story about Europe (quoted above) was to illustrate that the Mass is the same, so stop worrying about the language and worship God.

 

[ASD]

They don’t “worship differently” in any kind of dangerous way, as you seem to be implying. Next, do you want Catholics to create a global language so I can talk to my Chinese neighbors outside of Mass? Or do you only want that inter-mixing during the liturgy?

I think I understand your point. Latin in liturgy only goes so far to create “community.”

As a worldwide Church, a global community, we are bound to have different languages, different cultures, and different customs based on the many varied histories and current situations of the many different countries. You cannot expect that we drop who we are culturally and ethnically in order to worship God.

Perhaps. But, during Christianization of Europe during roughly first millenium, that’s exactly the approach that was taken. So, yes, we could expect people to use common language in liturgy.

Why don’t you try going to a Vietnamese Mass or Mass in some other language? You might learn something. I know I did.

Sure. I probably would learn something. But would it be something about God or something about man? Isn’t that kinda what people mean when they say liturgy has become like a closed circle, entirely horizontal, focused too much on us?

ASD​

Traditional Latin Mass: Translation and Grammar

 

[ASD]

Sorry, to what “fuss” are you referring?

“Fuss” was bad word to use. I was referring to change from Latin to vernacular, about which there was a great deal of excitement and optimism when it was a new idea.

…stop worrying about the language and worship God.

Exactly what the people who thought it was OK to stick to Latin said c. 1965. So, it seems like you and I agree about that much, KephasAugustine.

I guess what we disagree about is whether it’s good to have a single parish separated into groups by mother tongue. I understand that you think it’s OK, for the sensible reasons you’ve given.

ASD​

Traditional Latin Mass: Translation and Grammar

 

[Frosty]

In addition to English, my parish also has Masses in Spanish and Korean. As far as I have noticed in the dozen or more years since I have been a member of that parish, this has not been seen as a type of segregation or division. The parish council is comprised of people from all three language groups and all parish activities are supported and happily attended by all. I have found it to be an enriching experience to learn more of the different cultures and traditional practices than I otherwise would have had the chance.
In the past 30 years, there has been an explosion of immigrants to North America from countries other than the traditional European nations. Particularly from Asia. Many of these immigrants do not speak nor understand English well, If we consider that the homily is an important catechizing part of the Mass, then why should these people not be able to hear it in a language they do understand? Sure, Mass could be celebrated entirely in Latin but what do we do about the homily? And the Readings? Surely, in order to meet the needs of the all faithful, there would still have to be “ethnic” Masses where the mother tongue of the faithful is used for these parts of the Mass.

 

[malphono]

English Mass 9:00 AM, 10:30 AM
Spanish Mass 1:00 PM
Vietnamese Mass 5:00 PM

Segregation might be a slightly exaggerated term for that kind of separation. Maybe it’s more like the old ethnic Catholic neighborhoods in USA: The Polish had their Mass in one part of town, the Irish had theirs in another part of town, etc. Not sure which metaphor or figure of speech is best.

Anyway, I suspect that the immigrant nature of American society wasn’t much on the minds of the Council fathers, et al, who brought us vernacular Mass. (Another example of unintended consequences of social engineering?)

To me, it seems like that kind of separation of parishioners by mother tongue isn’t really consistent with the idea of a parish community. Or “Faith Community,” or whatever people say this year.

If we list pros and cons of vernacular vs. Latin, I say separation of a single parish by mother tongue is a real drawback.

Maybe others see it differently?

I suppose these days it is a form of segregation. As I see it, there’s a difference between the “national parishes” of olden days (read: pre-Conciliar) and the multi-lingual parishes of nowadays (read: post-Conciliar).

The “national parishes” (Italian, German, French, Polish, etc) in the US arose, of course, because of immigration. It was a way (and IMO a good one) to help people who found themselves in a new land cope. They did this by maintaining the local customs of the “old country” to reinforce the community’s identity, customs, and language, while at the same encouraging that community to learn the new language and customs and become a part of the “new” country. Of course, anyone of any ethnic group could assist at Mass in one of those parishes and frequently did. The Mass itself was always the same: the EF in Latin. The only thing the visitor might not “get” was the homily (depending on which language was used) (which was/IS often not a great loss).

The more recent multi-lingual parishes, of course, are supposed to serve the same purpose. But now there is the vernacular to deal with, and that changes things quite a bit. Not only is the homily likely to be in one or another non-English language, but of course so is the music, as well as the OF Mass itself. Someone who does not speak the vernacular or know the particular ethnic liturgical customs could well feel out of place and perhaps even unwelcome. And with variations in the OF being the order of the say, the visitor may not even be able to follow the order of service.

Bottom line: IMHO the “old way” was far superior. It worked because of the EF. I don’t think it would (or even could) work without the EF.

 

[Aramis]

To the extent that the various language communities mix, I guess might be a fair point. You get to learn something. But,

1. 
   *]How much of that mixing really happens?
   *]Is it really a good thing that two groups of Catholics worship so differently?

1. 
   Given that the differences between Catholics of the Latin Rite are far less notable than the differences between Latin and Byzantine Rite, Latin and Syriac Rite (in two distinct sub-rites), Latin and Coptic Rite, and Latin and Armenian Rite…
   
   The church values its diversity when that diversity is both licit and of longstanding tradition. If it didn’t, there would be no Eastern Rite Churches in Union with Rome.

 

[FK04US]

I suppose these days it is a form of segregation. As I see it, there’s a difference between the “national parishes” of olden days (read: pre-Conciliar) and the multi-lingual parishes of nowadays (read: post-Conciliar).

The “national parishes” (Italian, German, French, Polish, etc) in the US arose, of course, because of immigration. It was a way (and IMO a good one) to help people who found themselves in a new land cope. They did this by maintaining the local customs of the “old country” to reinforce the community’s identity, customs, and language, while at the same encouraging that community to learn the new language and customs and become a part of the “new” country. Of course, anyone of any ethnic group could assist at Mass in one of those parishes and frequently did. The Mass itself was always the same: the EF in Latin. The only thing the visitor might not “get” was the homily (depending on which language was used) (which was/IS often not a great loss).

The more recent multi-lingual parishes, of course, are supposed to serve the same purpose. But now there is the vernacular to deal with, and that changes things quite a bit. Not only is the homily likely to be in one or another non-English language, but of course so is the music, as well as the OF Mass itself. Someone who does not speak the vernacular or know the particular ethnic liturgical customs could well feel out of place and perhaps even unwelcome. And with variations in the OF being the order of the say, the visitor may not even be able to follow the order of service.

Bottom line: IMHO the “old way” was far superior. It worked because of the EF. I don’t think it would (or even could) work without the EF.

I disagree with your post regarding feeling “unwelcome” … I have never felt unwelcome in any Mass, never. But I feel more identified with the one offered inm y native language. No opinion about the old Mass, I am a young person, and am very happy to appreciate diversity of people, songs, and traditions in the current Latin rite. God created different flavors and colors, and I love that.

 

[Cathryn]

My small Parish on Sunday mornings has:

8 AM Latin Mass

10 AM English Mass

12 PM Spanish Mass

On Christmas the midnight Mass is multi-lingual with English, Spanish, Portugese, Latin, and a tiny bit of Greek.

We have one priest who does all the Masses. I feel comfortable at any of these Masses, but I prefer the Traditional Latin Mass where we all have a common language, the official language of the Catholic Church.

 

[Phemie]

I was born in '53 so I remember the Mass as it was before Vat. II. While the language of the Mass was Latin, the readings were in the vernacular as were a lot of the hymns. You still had divisions in parishes: the Anglophones went to the Mass where Fr. was likely to give the homily in English, or in both languages, and you generally didn’t see them at the Mass where Fr. gave the homily in French only and where the choir was most likely to be singing all in French.

Now, in order not to tax the priests and to make the best use of those who may only be fluent in one language, my former diocese has designated certain parishes as either English or French. That has meant that in the town where I went to high school, the 2 bilingual parishes that had separate geographical boundaries now have identical geographical boundaries but one’s ministry is to the French population and the other’s ministry is to the English population. This has done more than ‘split’ a parish, it has resulted in some parishioners having to either give up their worship language or their parish family. I’d rather see a parish offering Masses in different languages than see the above.

 

[JPUSC]

I’ve identified with Masses said in any language as it’s all the same to me. I don’t feel any difference attending English, Latin, Spanish or Vietnamesse Masses. Though, it must’ve been nice attending Mass pre-Vatican II where everything was in Latin everywhere in the world while the flavor of the local region was preserved, an example being the African Missa Luba approved by Pope Pius XII. The only type of Mass I’ve felt out of place were “Lifeteen” Masses.

On another note, I’ve heard of parishioners leaving a parish because of a new wave of immigrants arriving in a parish. I don’t see any reason why people would be uncomfortable going to Mass with other Catholics from another region.

 

[Aramis]

On another note, I’ve heard of parishioners leaving a parish because of a new wave of immigrants arriving in a parish. I don’t see any reason why people would be uncomfortable going to Mass with other Catholics from another region.

I know that my worst mass experience ever was the Filipino Community mass. Now Thank We All Our God at 20 beats a minute. the Gloria sung at 15 bpm. both morphed into the key of everything dissonant… Lord of the dance at a ‘rapid’ 30 BPM…

When I went to another local Filipino mass, it was the same effect… slow, supposedly unison but without any pitch matching, earsplitting and painful singing. But while this one was a bit faster, half sang in Tagalog and half in English… at the same time.

I’d go to confession for missing mass before ever setting foot in the Filipino community mass again round these parts. I can’t think nor pray in that.

Many can’t take the drum & chant of the Eskimo community masses.

 

[JPUSC]

I know that my worst mass experience ever was the Filipino Community mass. Now Thank We All Our God at 20 beats a minute. the Gloria sung at 15 bpm. both morphed into the key of everything dissonant… Lord of the dance at a ‘rapid’ 30 BPM…

When I went to another local Filipino mass, it was the same effect… slow, supposedly unison but without any pitch matching, earsplitting and painful singing. But while this one was a bit faster, half sang in Tagalog and half in English… at the same time.

I’d go to confession for missing mass before ever setting foot in the Filipino community mass again round these parts. I can’t think nor pray in that.

Many can’t take the drum & chant of the Eskimo community masses.

I assume you’re Filipino? These Filipino Masses certainly don’t fit your description:

youtube.com/watch?v=QtPW4M-_IYc
youtube.com/watch?v=o3FhbNcpVzQ
youtube.com/watch?v=pYKugVXGuv0
youtube.com/watch?v=A5wFuq7EsWA

On the topic, here’s some wonderful clips from other Masses around the world:

Africa:
youtube.com/watch?v=KmyQLvpIjhQ
youtube.com/watch?v=a89b1qtLoKk

India:
youtube.com/watch?v=ol_i7VbBZew

Korea:
youtube.com/watch?v=PWtp_DkJKB8