Is this segregation good?

[Aramis]

Nope. I am not Filipino.

The local Filipino community masses were so … out there… while still not being any different in the literal text of the mass, that it was painful to hear. Very orthodox, and very unpleasant for me. Thing is, I was often asked to serve them. It may just have been the local community… also, my Fiipino friends didn’t like them any better than I did… but their parents did.

The Eskimo community masses I enjoyed… but my mother, who doesn’t handle drums well, was unable to cope with.

It’s exemplary of why people would opt not to attend with other communities’ corporate masses: the constructs of the socio-dynamics that draw the people there also draw out the differences in the ephemera that can render one unable to think, let alone participate.

 

[Just_wondering]

Is it the big gap in time between the different language Masses that concerns you? It sounds as if it has the potential to create a sense that there are three parishes co-existing in one church. However, from my experience here in Korea, the times of the Mass are often chosen to fit the lifestyle of the communities they serve.

For example, I usually go to Mass at the Franciscan university, and they have their English Mass at 7pm to accommodate the exchange students who might go out of town on the weekend but still need to attend Mass when they get back. The local Filipino church has their Mass at 1pm, which works beautifully for all the workers who are on night shift at the factories on the outskirts of town - they have enough time to clean up before Mass.

It may be that the Mass schedule was organized with the needs of each language group in mind, and so the segregation was a result of the church trying to meet the needs of each group. In that case, the segregation is unfortunate but necessary.

 

[ASD]

Is it the big gap in time between the different language Masses that concerns you? It sounds as if it has the potential to create a sense that there are three parishes co-existing in one church.

Yea, that was what I thought about it at first. But people have argued pretty persuasively that’s it’s not so bad, and certainly not worse than days of ethnic parishes. E.g., Frosty explained that people can go to Mass at different times and still cooperate in other parts of parish life. On the other hand, I still think it’s an ironic, unintended effect of well-meant reforms.

ASD​

Traditional Latin Mass: Translation and Grammar

 

[WhollyRoamin]

If we list pros and cons of vernacular vs. Latin, I say separation of a single parish by mother tongue is a real drawback.

Respectfully, it’s not really a verncular/Latin distinction. Remember all those churches in the old part of town where the Germans were on one block and the Czechs on the next block and Poles on the next block… all those Masses were in Latin when those churches were built.

There is no problem with ethnic communities going to Mass. I am sure they feel lucky that there are enough people around to form a community. Consider it a blessing.

I bet the Friday fish frys are quite a spectacle!

 

[BSHoop96]

English Mass 9:00 AM, 10:30 AM
Spanish Mass 1:00 PM
Vietnamese Mass 5:00 PM

Segregation might be a slightly exaggerated term for that kind of separation. Maybe it’s more like the old ethnic Catholic neighborhoods in USA: The Polish had their Mass in one part of town, the Irish had theirs in another part of town, etc. Not sure which metaphor or figure of speech is best.

Anyway, I suspect that the immigrant nature of American society wasn’t much on the minds of the Council fathers, et al, who brought us vernacular Mass. (Another example of unintended consequences of social engineering?)

To me, it seems like that kind of separation of parishioners by mother tongue isn’t really consistent with the idea of a parish community. Or “Faith Community,” or whatever people say this year.

If we list pros and cons of vernacular vs. Latin, I say separation of a single parish by mother tongue is a real drawback.

Maybe others see it differently?

ASD​

Traditional Latin Mass: Translation and Grammar

No…it encourages immigrants not to learn the language and not to assimilate and become “Americans” which previous immigrants did. That’s not how we became the much referred to “melting pot”. We would not have done this if we all retained our own culture, language, church, etc.

 

[JPUSC]

No…it encourages immigrants not to learn the language and not to assimilate and become “Americans” which previous immigrants did. That’s not how we became the much referred to “melting pot”. We would not have done this if we all retained our own culture, language, church, etc.

You can’t make people remove their cultural identity. Religion is a part of cultural identity. Besides the English language, there is no distinctive “American” culture. The waves of Irish and Italian immigrants never gave up their languages and religious customs. Even among white Americans, there is no uniformity. The culture is different in the East Coast, the West Coast, the North and the South.

Having Masses in different languages doesn’t encourage immigrants not to learn the language. It just allows them to practice the religious customs of their heritage. Most immigrants do speak English, otherwise it would be hard to live here.

America is a great nation because of cultural diversity and the lessons we learn from other cultures. For example, the passing of Prop 8 in California (ban same-sex-marriage) was a result of the traditional values certain cultures hold dear. Popular American culture condones same-sex-marriage. It was the traditional social and religious values of the African-Americans and Latinos that caused Prop 8 to pass.

If the early waves of Catholic immigrants decided to fully assimilate in the way that you suggested, we would all be Protestant!! Don’t forget Catholics were the minority back then and were persecuted.

 

[FK04US]

You can’t make people remove their cultural identity. Religion is a part of cultural identity. Besides the English language, there is no distinctive “American” culture. The waves of Irish and Italian immigrants never gave up their languages and religious customs. Even among white Americans, there is no uniformity. The culture is different in the East Coast, the West Coast, the North and the South.

Having Masses in different languages doesn’t encourage immigrants not to learn the language. It just allows them to practice the religious customs of their heritage. Most immigrants do speak English, otherwise it would be hard to live here.

America is a great nation because of cultural diversity and the lessons we learn from other cultures. For example, the passing of Prop 8 in California (ban same-sex-marriage) was a result of the traditional values certain cultures hold dear. Popular American culture condones same-sex-marriage. It was the traditional social and religious values of the African-Americans and Latinos that caused Prop 8 to pass.

If the early waves of Catholic immigrants decided to fully assimilate in the way that you suggested, we would all be Protestant!! Don’t forget Catholics were the minority back then and were persecuted.

Excellent! I could not have stated it better!

 

[BSHoop96]

You can’t make people remove their cultural identity. Religion is a part of cultural identity. Besides the English language, there is no distinctive “American” culture. The waves of Irish and Italian immigrants never gave up their languages and religious customs. Even among white Americans, there is no uniformity. The culture is different in the East Coast, the West Coast, the North and the South.

Having Masses in different languages doesn’t encourage immigrants not to learn the language. It just allows them to practice the religious customs of their heritage. Most immigrants do speak English, otherwise it would be hard to live here.

America is a great nation because of cultural diversity and the lessons we learn from other cultures. For example, the passing of Prop 8 in California (ban same-sex-marriage) was a result of the traditional values certain cultures hold dear. Popular American culture condones same-sex-marriage. It was the traditional social and religious values of the African-Americans and Latinos that caused Prop 8 to pass.

If the early waves of Catholic immigrants decided to fully assimilate in the way that you suggested, we would all be Protestant!! Don’t forget Catholics were the minority back then and were persecuted.

Oh please…that’s political correctness talking…by assimilate no one means changing religion. My great-grandparents were immigrants. They quit speaking their native language in their home so the children would more quickly assimiliate. Now I’m not suggesting that necessarily but just to show one example of then and now…I know a child in my neighborhood that is not allowed to speak English “at home”.

And now this post is rapidly moving off topic so goodbye.

 

[JPUSC]

Oh please…that’s political correctness talking…by assimilate no one means changing religion. My great-grandparents were immigrants. They quit speaking their native language in their home so the children would more quickly assimiliate. Now I’m not suggesting that necessarily but just to show one example of then and now…I know a child in my neighborhood that is not allowed to speak English “at home”.

And now this post is rapidly moving off topic so goodbye.

If you’re going to talk about assimilation, you should get the definition right:

Cultural assimilation is when an individual or individuals adopts some or all aspects of a dominant culture (such as its religion, language, norms, values etc.).

You are mainly referring to language as a form of assimilation. One can speak English without abandoning one’s native tongue and cultural heritage. There is nothing wrong with Masses in different languages. On that subject, there has been a shift in the demographic make-up of the American Catholic Church. Maybe you should start assimilating to the new Catholic culture in the U.S.

The encounter with cultures and the everyday experience of cultural diversity are key and integral aspects of the past and present of the Catholic Church not only in the United States but worldwide.

The majority of immigrants coming to this land are Roman Catholic. They bring with them distinctive and valuable forms of culture and Catholic identity that must be respected and built upon as a new U.S. identity is forged.

In addition to the vast range of immigrant groups such as the growing Asian and Pacific Island communities, there are longstanding, cultural/ethnic communities whose presence coincides with or antedates that of European Americans. Among these are the Native American, African American, and Hispanic/Latino communities who continue to provide rich and distinctive patterns of Catholic identity as well as challenging needs of a social, economic and political nature.

The current shift taking place in the Catholic Church in the United States from one of predominantly European origin to one of Latin American, Asian, Pacific Island and African origin demands a new level of dialogue between and among these emerging new groups as well as with the European American faithful.

Father Allan Figueroa Deck, S.J., Ph.D., S.T.D.
United States Conference of Catholic Bishops​

Why the influence of other cultures on society would be a good thing in the U.S., which is slowly turning towards secularism, like Europe:

http://pewresearch.org/assets/publications/784-1.gif

http://pewresearch.org/assets/publications/784-2.gif

 

[ASD]

You can’t make people remove their cultural identity. Religion is a part of cultural identity. …
Having Masses in different languages doesn’t encourage immigrants not to learn the language. It just allows them to practice the religious customs of their heritage.

I think I know what you mean. There is a strong association between RC religion and some cultural traditions. The example that comes to my mind is the Irish Catholics. I think that for many Irish, being Catholic, rather than Anglican or Presbyterian, became part of what it meant to be Irish. But, that’s a distortion rooted in tragic history. In fact, something like the opposite is actually the case: St. Patrick and other churchmen were the EU men of their day; precisely not nationalists or tribalists.

Along similar lines, when I was a boy in the USA during 1960s adults still remembered and hoped to preserve or pertetuate a distinctive Irish-American culture and identity from the old Irish neighborhoods. They didn’t succeed. And I now see all that as stuff and nonsense. In fact, AFAIK, the great contribution of the Irish was to preserve in the western monasteries something completely un-Irish: the alien, imported heritage of ancient Mediterranean civilzation. And what they preserved is what’s important.

This is a point that matters a great deal to me. I think of myself as, above all else, an heir. Virtually everything about me and the life I lead is inherited. And, the most important thing I do is appreciate and hand on what has been given to me. (Cf. 1 Cor 11:23) To name a few big ones: constitutionalism and the rule of law; virtually everything I think I know about law, science, philosophy, literature; Linux and open source technology, which I use to make my living; and, of course, Catholic Christianity.

The truth is that nothing genuinely Irish is on that list. And I suspect that others, if they got down to brass tacks, could say pretty much the same thing.

I guess that what really matters about those cultural traditions you refer to is, in the last analysis, the traditions of Catholic Christianity. That is, what really matters is what transcends a particular folk music style, etc.

Ironically, I think many people who are comfortable in post-conciliar Church would agree. Like, that was an important theme of VII: The Church is so much more than Latin language, Gregorian Mass, Roman bureaucracy, etc. A particular language, liturgical tradition, institutional history, etc, aren’t what really matter.

The point, admittedly minor: A crazy unintended consequence of change to vernacular: People are now focused on what doesn’t matter. E.g., they’re segregated by mother tongue because they’re led to believe that some extraneous accidents of musical style, etc, are their “religious heritage.” On the other hand, the old, unified Latin Mass approach sent the opposite, more correct signal: Our religious heritage transcends nationalism and tribalism.

ASD​

Traditional Latin Mass: Translation and Grammar

 

[WhollyRoamin]

No…it encourages immigrants not to learn the language and not to assimilate and become “Americans” which previous immigrants did. That’s not how we became the much referred to “melting pot”. We would not have done this if we all retained our own culture, language, church, etc.

How absurd!

Go take a trip to the old part of town in whatever city you live-- you’ll see Catholic churches on every block. Why? Because the Poles didn’t go to church with the Germans. And the Germans didn’t go to Mass with Italians. And the Italians didn’t worship at the Czechs’ parish. And on and on.

We were never a “melting pot”, that’s historical-ideological-revisionist mularky. Why do you think cities have Chinatowns? Little Italys? French quarters? Spanish barrios? Do you think those neighborhoods just occured so the city’s residents knew where to eat dinner? :whacky:

 

[Padua_Minded]

How can you get an insight into authentic Spanish worship when they’ve only had that worship since 1970? Up until the 60s, it was all the same. The Spanish Mass is a fairly recent innovation, it is not part of anyone’s “cultural heritage”, much less a tradition. If you want authentic and quintessential Spanish worship try the Mozarbic rite.

 

[benedictgal]

How can you get an insight into authentic Spanish worship when they’ve only had that worship since 1970? Up until the 60s, it was all the same. The Spanish Mass is a fairly recent innovation, it is not part of anyone’s “cultural heritage”, much less a tradition. If you want authentic and quintessential Spanish worship try the Mozarbic rite.

That is true. Even in parishes that were typcially for Spanish-speakers, the only Spanish that was spoken was the homily. The full use of the vernacular did not occur until the late 1960s, early 1970s. Prior to that, the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass was celebrated in Latin.

Now, San Antonio is a typical example. In the city’s downtown district, there are several parishes. St. Joseph’s (affectionately known as St. Joske’s because the store wrapped around the parish) was established for German-speaking Catholics. St. Mary’s, along the River Walk, was built by Irish Catholics. St. Francesco di Paola was for Italian-speaking Catholics and San Fernando Cathedral (and the Alamo, formerly known as San Antonio de Valero) was built for Spanish-speaking Catholics. However, the only vernaclur aspect of these different parishes was the fact that the homilies were delivered in the tongue of the people.

If you were to walk into St. Joseph’s, you would find that the Stations of the Cross are written in German. At St. Francesco di Paola, the Stations of the Cross are inscribed in Italian.

Now, recall, too, that San Antonio was founded by Spaniards, back when Texas was still a part of Spain. St. Francesco di Paola, St. Joseph’s and St. Mary’s came after Texas became a part of the Union and a whole influx of immigrants came to our state.

My dad and I happened to stop in at St. Francesco di Paola for Mass. Many of the names of the folks in the bulletin are Italian. Even though downtown sprawl dismantled many of the neighborhoods, the descendants of the founding parishioners still come to the parish and call it their own. We also happened to catch a wedding. The bride’s great, great grandmother had been married there and she and her family had all of their sacramental celebrations there.

Each parish also has its distinctive style. St. Joseph’s looks very Germanic and somewhat Gothic while St. Mary’s looks like a minature version of St. John Lateran (exterior). San Fernando is very Spanish-mission. I supose that had the Alamo survived and remained a church, it would have looked much the same. The walls are three-feet thick. St. Francesco di Paola looks like something out of the Victorian period on the outside, but, on the inside, the statuary is very Italian…

In my hometown, the Cathedral is our oldest church, dating back to the founding of the city. As we were founded by Spaniards, back when Laredo (and Texas) was still a part of Spain, the language of the homily was Spanish. It wasn’t until 1897 that the first parish for the city’s English-speaking community was built. Again, the Mass was in Latin, the homily was in English. .

 

[ASD]

Respectfully, it’s not really a verncular/Latin distinction. Remember all those churches in the old part of town where the Germans were on one block and the Czechs on the next block and Poles on the next block… all those Masses were in Latin when those churches were built.

Yea. One point that has been made pretty convincingly is that Masses in several languages at one parish is no worse than old ethnic neighborhoods. So, if I could start over, I think I would put the question in terms of unintended consequences instead of segregation or lack of community.

Go take a trip to the old part of town in whatever city you live-- you’ll see Catholic churches on every block. Why? Because the Poles didn’t go to church with the Germans. And the Germans didn’t go to Mass with Italians. And the Italians didn’t worship at the Czechs’ parish. And on and on.

We were never a “melting pot”, that’s historical-ideological-revisionist mularky. Why do you think cities have Chinatowns? Little Italys? French quarters? Spanish barrios?

But there must have been some melting because, Benedictgal’s description of various remnants notwithstanding, those neighborhoods aren’t there anymore, and they don’t exist in suburbs. The grandchildren of all those folks go to Mass together now. But, I guess that’s a point about American society, not vernacular or Latin.

ASD​

Traditional Latin Mass: Translation and Grammar

 

[JPUSC]

Yes, while the Mass was in Latin pre-Vatican II, each culture had their own special adaptation to Catholic culture.

For instance, the Missa Luba was a Latin Mass setting incorporating Congolese music.

 

[Padua_Minded]

Yes, while the Mass was in Latin pre-Vatican II, each culture had their own special adaptation to Catholic culture.

No they didn’t. They may have sung different hymns after low Mass but the liturgy was the same, except for very minor things (eg second confiteor).

For instance, the Missa Luba was a Latin Mass setting incorporating Congolese music.

The Missa Luba wasn’t even a mass. It was a concert set to the Mass texts, like Beethoven or Handel, but using Congolese translations. It would have been utterly illict to have said Mass according to these translations.

And it was only originally composed in 1958, so even it was a Mass, it had only a 4 year life existence. Not enough to constitute ‘cultural heritage’.

 

[JPUSC]

I think the best way of looking at this is recognizing the universality of the Church, which is made up of different cultures.

Catholic customs and devotions come from different cultures from all over the world. Gregorian Chant was inspired by the psalmody of ancient Jewish worship. The customs of putting up Christmas trees and Advent wreaths came from Germany. The Miraculous Medal came from France. Feasts of saints and titles of Our Lady from all nations make up the universal calendar of the Church.

I’ve noticed a few differences in community Masses that have nothing to do with language. In Spanish community Masses, I’ve noticed that a greater proportion of the congregation does not casually go up for Communion. Perhaps, Confession is given more importance in Latin America. In Vietnamesse Masses, I’ve noticed a greater number of women wearing veils and headcoverings. In Filipino Masses, there is a strong devotion to Our Lady (e.g. community rosaries before or after Mass, processions with Marian statues). In Polish communities, there are devotions to Our Lady of Czechtohowa and the Divine Mercy. In Irish communities, they continue to use hymns with particular significance to their community (e.g., Faith of Our Fathers, Jesus, My Lord, My God, My All, etc). In the United States, we have our own customs and emphasises in our parish communities and Masses.

I think Masses said for different groups help to preserve some Catholic customs and traditions that we hold dear and also serve to provide a sense of belonging to people who are now American citizens, but long for the traditions and the sense of community that they felt in their homeland.

 

[Monica37]

I hear a lot about culture, but what about Catholic culture? It’s nice that we all come from different parts of the world, but if we are Catholic we have our united culture which should come before any geographic cultural identity. This last election shows that we have largely abandoned our Catholic culture. I stand on the sidewalk of planned parenthood and am surprised if I see anyone else show up. I talk to many Catholics who have never owned a Rosary, much less know how to pray one. I think we need to stop focusing on how different or special we are because we have one or another cultural traditions and turn our attention back to the greatest Tradition that we all have in common.

Just as a disclaimer, I attend the EF. I think it is great and have heard how many Hispanics have embraced the EF because of the beauty and the language. Mind you I live in an area that offers at least half of all parishes as Spanish only. Yet the come to the EF. The EF has a Catholic culture that goes with the language. I would love to go to Mass with everyone and attend parish events outside the united Catholic Mass that express geographic diversity. Ultimately, though I believe that when we as Catholics speak of culture, the culture that should always be first and foremost is the Catholic culture.

 

[JPUSC]

I hear a lot about culture, but what about Catholic culture? It’s nice that we all come from different parts of the world, but if we are Catholic we have our united culture which should come before any geographic cultural identity. This last election shows that we have largely abandoned our Catholic culture. I stand on the sidewalk of planned parenthood and am surprised if I see anyone else show up. I talk to many Catholics who have never owned a Rosary, much less know how to pray one. I think we need to stop focusing on how different or special we are because we have one or another cultural traditions and turn our attention back to the greatest Tradition that we all have in common.

Just as a disclaimer, I attend the EF. I think it is great and have heard how many Hispanics have embraced the EF because of the beauty and the language. Mind you I live in an area that offers at least half of all parishes as Spanish only. Yet the come to the EF. The EF has a Catholic culture that goes with the language. I would love to go to Mass with everyone and attend parish events outside the united Catholic Mass that express geographic diversity. Ultimately, though I believe that when we as Catholics speak of culture, the culture that should always be first and foremost is the Catholic culture.

In my part of the country, the Catholic culture is slowly disappearing in favor of the Protestanization of English-speaking parishes (e.g., LifeTeen). The traditional practices of certain ethnic groups are becoming the remnant of traditional Catholic culture and piety. Even though I don’t speak or understand their language, I get a greater sense of Catholic identity attending these Masses than in some of the English Masses I’ve attended.

It is a good thing we have our Holy Father, Pope Benedict XVI at this moment in time, because we are seeing a resurrecting of traditional Catholicism.

 

[Monica37]

It is a good thing we have our Holy Father, Pope Benedict XVI at this moment in time, because we are seeing a resurrecting of traditional Catholicism.

Yes, I absolutely love him! But that is what I am saying. I think we get too hung up on individual cultures and trying to appease everyone that we forget that as a whole Catholic community we have a history and a common culture.

Recently I spoke with a mom who was considering a Catholic school for her daughter. She states her demonination as “Christian” and attends a “mega-church”. She said her only concern with a Catholic school was that they might teach her things that would confuse her. I told her don’t worry, my church history is your church history. They only differ after the Protestant Reformation so any history she may learn before that is her history too. The mom looked at me kinda shocked for a second then said, yeah, that’s true. I also told her about the EF and that this was the Mass before (and after) the Protestant Reformation and she enthusiastically said she wanted to go see it.

BTW JPUSC, I love the picture in your sig line