Is this suicide

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TarkanAttila said:
It would not be suicide to freeze yourself to death out of a hunger - a love - for Christ.
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Love for Christ does not incline one to freeze themselves to death.
TarkanAttila said:
The man is an extreme example, and an inordinate one, and thus a bad one. But while his act is gravely wrong, he does not know it is. Therefore it cannot be suicide, at least not in his intention.
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I’m speaking in terms of objective reality, not subjective culpability.
 
devoutchristian said:
Love for Christ does not incline one to freeze themselves to death.

I’m speaking in terms of objective reality, not subjective culpability.
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Unless you don’t hold your Church’s teaching as objective reality, I think the objective reality of the situation incorporates subjective culpability based on intention.
 
meltzerboy said:
Unless you don’t hold your Church’s teaching as objective reality, I think the objective reality of the situation incorporates subjective culpability based on intention.
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I was clarifying that I was talking about the objective morality of acts, rather than the subjective culpability of individuals.
 
devoutchristian said:
I was clarifying that I was talking about the objective morality of acts, rather than the subjective culpability of individuals.
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Alright, alright, fine. You are correct, devoutchristian. It is objectively grave matter: suicide.

But because, as we understand it, he DOES NOT understand what he is doing, therefore he is NOT culpable of suicide.

Perhaps it is a bit like the founders of Protestantism versus modern Protestants.
 
It is suicide but it is also self-sacrifice. Jesus says that there is no greater love than to lay down your life for another.
 
devoutchristian said:
But suicide is intrinsically evil, so it’s either/or.
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John chapter 15:verses 12-14
This is my commandment: love one another as I love you.
No one has greater love than this, to lay down one’s life for one’s friends.
You are my friends if you do what I command you.

Here Jesus states that to sacrifice your self for your friends is the greatest love. He did this for us and commands us to do likewise. That is the word of the Lord.
 
JamesATyler said:
John chapter 15:verses 12-14
This is my commandment: love one another as I love you.
No one has greater love than this, to lay down one’s life for one’s friends.
You are my friends if you do what I command you.

Here Jesus states that to sacrifice your self for your friends is the greatest love. He did this for us and commands us to do likewise. That is the word of the Lord.
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That is sola scriptura. Jesus was killed by malefactors, not by himself.
 
devoutchristian said:
That is sola scriptura. Jesus was killed by malefactors, not by himself.
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Your kind of losing me. Are you arguing that it is intrinsically evil to lay down your life for a friend or to sacrifice yourself to save another?

John, Chapter 10:verses 17-18
This is why the Father loves me, because I lay down my life in order to take it up again. No one takes it from me, but I lay it down on my own. I have power to lay it down, and power to take it up again. This command I have received from my Father."
 
JamesATyler said:
Your kind of losing me. Are you arguing that it is intrinsically evil to lay down your life for a friend or to sacrifice yourself to save another?
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It’s intrinsically evil to commit suicide. Please figure out what theat word means.
 
devoutchristian said:
It’s intrinsically evil to commit suicide. Please figure out what theat word means.
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As far as I have ever known, suicide means to kill yourself. You can do it by putting a gun in your mouth and pulling the trigger or you can do it by throwing yourself on a grenade to save a comrade’s life. Both are suicidal acts but the second one is not intrinsically evil. How does my opinion differ with your’s? I see we both answered the poll question with an affirmative.

The OP’s example was even better. You’ve got to blow up that asteroid and you’ve got to know that its going to kill you too. If suicide means the sole or main intention is to kill yourself then suicide is intrinsically evil all the time. In the asteroid example, I would assume the main intention is to destroy the asteroid. Killing yourself is just an unfortunate side effect. If that’s the case, then I need to change my answer in the poll to no. It’s simply a self-sacrifice.
 
devoutchristian said:
It’s intrinsically evil to commit suicide. Please figure out what theat word means.
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We call people who strap on bombs and kill others “suicide bombers” even though their main intention is actually to kill others. Are we misusing the term suicide? So in that example, it seems like the main intention doesn’t matter. It’s still suicide. Maybe it’s because he knows he will kill himself in the process, that it becomes suicidal.

Is it about desire? Must a person want to die to be called suicidal? We assume the guy on the asteroid wants to live but must detonate the bomb to save lives. So then his act is not suicidal. When Kirk goes in to repair the engine in Star Trek, his act is suicidal but he does not want to die. Can we say he commited suicide? In the original Wrath of Khan, when Spock tries to do the same, doesn’t Macoy say that it’s suicide? I’ll have to re watch it.

What does it mean to you? Up to this point, I’ve called any act that will result in personal death suicidal. Figuring out what suicide means is the point of the thread.
 
JamesATyler said:
We call people who strap on bombs and kill others “suicide bombers” even though their main intention is actually to kill others. Are we misusing the term suicide? So in that example, it seems like the main intention doesn’t matter. It’s still suicide. Maybe it’s because he knows he will kill himself in the process, that it becomes suicidal.

Is it about desire? Must a person want to die to be called suicidal? We assume the guy on the asteroid wants to live but must detonate the bomb to save lives. So then his act is not suicidal. When Kirk goes in to repair the engine in Star Trek, his act is suicidal but he does not want to die. Can we say he commited suicide? In the original Wrath of Khan, when Spock tries to do the same, doesn’t Macoy say that it’s suicide? I’ll have to re watch it.

What does it mean to you? Up to this point, I’ve called any act that will result in personal death suicidal. Figuring out what suicide means is the point of the thread.
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If we define suicide only according to desire, that raises some questions since even people who commit suicide because they see no other alternative to their personal problems, whatever they may be, and are suffering greatly, may nonetheless desire to live if they were given or found a remedy to their suffering. Also, failed suicide attempts are sometimes considered cries for help and expressions of the desire to live rather than die.

The case of the politically-motivated suicide bombers–who may also expect to be rewarded in heaven due to their noble act–is also problematic since, as you pointed out, the main intention is not to kill themselves but to kill others. The method they use may be the most effective way to accomplish their goal.
 
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