Is this the call for a confused Atheist?

[humble_in_doubt]

get a grip.

You come here and you are answered. It is easy to sweep with a big brush and then hold up your hands.

You did not read my posts obviously.

Ok …

 

[josie_L]

come on Josie … this is no more provoking than SNL? I know not taking many things seriously can be annoying (it annoys my mom all the time); but I do take many things seriously (I just require that they be real that’s all …oh and profitable is also nice ).

I’m willing to bet your mother must have a lot of patience. Are you the eldest by the way?

 

[always_gr8ful]

Hi Josie, humble and Reuben!
Don’t mind me, I’m just getting caught up here answering a post to me way back on page 5.

If OSAS is biblical, please show me where it says that.

Jesus speaking:
“Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.”
~John 5:24

I could stop right there with that one verse. Jesus is clear - if you hear His Word and believe God sent Him, you WILL have everlasting life, you WILL NOT come into condemnation, and you HAVE passed from death to life.

So you can post all the scripture you want about “working out our salvation”, and any other scripture you can find that shows as believers, we should have fruit and walk in the plan God has for us, but none of those scriptures will say that we can lose our salvation, INCLUDING the scripture about the seed that falls on hard ground (they never believed in the first place, therefore they were not saved). You won’t get any arugment from me that there are things we want to do AFTER we are saved, but Jesus is clear here that if we don’t, we are still saved by believing on Him.

“But where sin abounded, grace did much more abound:
That as sin hath reigned unto death, even so might grace reign through righteousness unto eternal life by Jesus Christ our Lord.”
~Romans 5:20-21

For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.
~Romans 6:23

There is a difference of opinion with the scripture above, as some feel that a gift can be taken back, or given back. This one isn’t as clear as the others, so will probably get the most attention.

"Jesus answered them, “I told you, and you do not believe. The works that I do in My Father’s name, they bear witness of Me. But you do not believe, because you are not of My sheep, as I said to you. My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me.
And I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; neither shall anyone snatch them out of My hand. My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of My Father’s hand. I and My Father are one.”
~John 10:25-30

“Now it is God who makes both us and you stand firm in Christ. He anointed us, set his seal of ownership on us, and put his Spirit in our hearts as a deposit, guaranteeing what is to come.”
~2 Corinthians 1:21-22

Ephesians 1:13
"And you also were included in Christ when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation. Having believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God’s possession—to the praise of his glory".

"And Jesus said unto them, I am the bread of life: he that cometh to me shall never hunger; and he that believeth on me shall never thirst.
But I said unto you, That ye also have seen me, and believe not.
All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out."
~John 6:35-37

PJM, I was surprised that you used 1 John 5 as an example, because you failed to see the reason he stated for writting, so I’ll add it to my list of OSAS scripture:

“He that believeth on the Son of God hath the witness in himself: he that believeth not God hath made him a liar; because he believeth not the record that God gave of his Son.
And this is the record, that God hath given to us eternal life, and this life is in his Son.
He that hath the Son hath life; and he that hath not the Son of God hath not life.
These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God.”
~1 John 5:10-13

Jesus wants us to have blessed assurance so we can enter His rest. It’s a good thing.

 

[humble_in_doubt]

Hi Josie, humble and Reuben!
Don’t mind me, I’m just getting caught up here answering a post to me way back on page 5.

Jesus speaking:
“Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.”
~John 5:24

I could stop right there with that one verse. Jesus is clear - if you hear His Word and believe God sent Him, you WILL have everlasting life, you WILL NOT come into condemnation, and you HAVE passed from death to life.

So you can post all the scripture you want about “working out our salvation”, and any other scripture you can find that shows as believers, we should have fruit and walk in the plan God has for us, but none of those scriptures will say that we can lose our salvation, INCLUDING the scripture about the seed that falls on hard ground (they never believed in the first place, therefore they were not saved). You won’t get any arugment from me that there are things we want to do AFTER we are saved, but Jesus is clear here that if we don’t, we are still saved by believing on Him.

but what about all the enduring to the end terminology in scripture? I’m sorry but I have to agree with the Catholics on this one (and even more so with John Calvin).

I’m a good case in point for this discussion … because at one time I did have faith in Jesus Christ, but I lost it. Does this mean I’m still saved? Obviously I don’t think there’s anything I need saving from, nor do I believe in any god … but let’s leave my view aside for the moment.

Under your premise I’m either still saved or I never had faith to begin with. It seems to me in religion your opposition can claim something forcefully enough and it almost becomes self-promulgating.

OSAS began as a hybrid of perseverance of the saints. None of the early evangelists who promulgated this doctrine would have ever said one who doesn’t endure in faith can expect to be saved. Calvin would say if someone doesn’t endure that means they never had sincere faith to begin with (which I believe is what scripture teaches).

Now I personally believe I did have faith. I used to quarrel with atheists, I had a passion for Christ, I was extremely conservative, I had guilt for sinning against god, and I rarely entertained any doubt in my mind with regard to Christianity. However, I lost my faith. Now a days I hear televangelists like Osteen say things like just say this little prayer, and we believe you will be saved (inferring they’re immediately saved upon professing Christ). This is why I say things can become self-fulfilling.

It’s like when Calvinists accuse Catholics of being Arminians. Catholics never used to be Arminians, and were very close to Calvin’s view (with regard to grace, predestination, and “witness of faith”). Catholics would simply add to the idea that faith and virtuous living is witness of faith, with their own caveats (i.e. the sacraments). For Catholics there is a divine impartation of grace in physical sacraments (particularly the Eucharist and baptism). This idea was obviously absurd to the reformers (and it ultimately spiraled down into the history which we’re all too familiar with). Now a days Catholics have become Arminians (by any reasonable standard anyway).

Catholics used to say OSAS is a horrible doctrine that supposes one can profess Christ in one instant, then turn around and dive back into a life of sin – yet remain saved eternally. It never meant this formerly, but now it effectively does (because this is what evangelicals preach).

More proof that religion is a manifestation of the human imagination. If one side can launch an effective enough argument that wins enough support … they will move the other side to alter their view. It really gets interesting when they then try and say they didn’t really alter their view (and offer an elaborate explanation telling us why this is so … when it’s obviously baloney).

Ahhh .,. anyways!

 

[always_gr8ful]

but what about all the enduring to the end terminology in scripture? I’m sorry but I have to agree with the Catholics on this one (and even more so with John Calvin).

Well, if you plan on being here for the Tribulation (Matthew 24), then you will have to endure to the end. Me? I’ll be in Heaven because God promised He would spare us believers when He pours out His wrath.

OSAS began as a hybrid of perseverance of the saints. None of the early evangelists who promulgated this doctrine would have ever said one who doesn’t endure in faith can expect to be saved. Calvin would say if someone doesn’t endure that means they never had sincere faith to begin with (which I believe is what scripture teaches).

Again, “endure” is for the Tribulation.
Any student of the Bible can see for themselves, or simply read the promises of Jesus posted 2 posts up.

Now I personally believe I did have faith. I used to quarrel with atheists, I had a passion for Christ, I was extremely conservative, I had guilt for sinning against god, and I rarely entertained any doubt in my mind with regard to Christianity. However, I lost my faith. Now a days I hear televangelists like Osteen say things like just say this little prayer, and we believe you will be saved (inferring they’re immediately saved upon professing Christ). This is why I say things can become self-fulfilling.

Sounds to me like you were saved. A “passion for Christ” - you had to believe God sent His Son to die for your sins, right? Do you believe His Word when He says no one can snatch you out of His Hand, not even the spaghetti monster?

I’m sorry that you left your faith before you learned to step into the freedom Christ died for you. Times’ a wastin’ and He had big plans for you that you will never know until you stand before Him. That’s no threat of regret, just being real. You will never know now.

I know all about the guilt. Me too, until about 8 years ago when I got ahold of Romans 8 in a meaningful way. So weird - I was just talking about this guilt on salvation = belief + nothing thread.

Yeah, Joel and his “we believe” prayer. I about fell out of my chair the first time I heard Him say it, but a phony as it is, maybe there are people somewhere just looking for someone to say it so they can accept Christ at that moment. But how much damage does he do to people who have no concept of Christ or sincerity when Joel puts it so lightly, and never really believe in the Name that saves?

It’s like when Calvinists accuse Catholics of being Arminians. Catholics never used to be Arminians, and were very close to Calvin’s view (with regard to grace, predestination, and “witness of faith”). Catholics would simply add to the idea that faith and virtuous living is witness of faith, with their own caveats (i.e. the sacraments). For Catholics there is a divine impartation of grace in physical sacraments (particularly the Eucharist and baptism). This idea was obviously absurd to the reformers (and it ultimately spiraled down into the history which we’re all too familiar with). Now a days Catholics have become Arminians (by any reasonable standard anyway).

I don’t know anything about all that but what I’ve heard here in the last 2 months.

Catholics used to say OSAS is a horrible doctrine that supposes one can profess Christ in one instant, then turn around and dive back into a life of sin – yet remain saved eternally. It never meant this formerly, but now it effectively does (because this is what evangelicals preach).

Some say this, some say that - what does GOD say?
Did Jesus come for the sick, or for the perfect?

More proof that religion is a manifestation of the human imagination. If one side can launch an effective enough argument that wins enough support … they will move the other side to alter their view. It really gets interesting when they then try and say they didn’t really alter their view (and offer an elaborate explanation telling us why this is so … when it’s obviously baloney).

Ahhh .,. anyways!

That’s why I love His Word. Without Truth, there is no Truth and it’s all subjective, left up to whoever has the best argument. But first, ya gotta believe there IS the Truth of His Word. It’ll set you free.

 

[guanophore]

Well, if you plan on being here for the Tribulation (Matthew 24), then you will have to endure to the end. Me? I’ll be in Heaven because God promised He would spare us believers when He pours out His wrath.
Again, “endure” is for the Tribulation.
Any student of the Bible can see for themselves, or simply read the promises of Jesus posted 2 posts up.

Actually, gr8ful, endurance is for each and every day. Some people are already going thru some tribulation! There are areas of the world where the Church is still under persecution to the death.

1 Peter 4:12-13
12 Beloved, do not be surprised at the fiery ordeal which comes upon you to prove you, as though something strange were happening to you. 13 But rejoice in so far as you share Christ’s sufferings, that you may also rejoice and be glad when his glory is revealed.

The Apostles taught that ordeals were to be expected.

James 1:12-13
12 Blessed is the man who endures trial, for when he has stood the test he will receive the crown of life which God has promised to those who love him.

What does this imply about those who do not stand the test?

What does it imply for those who do not have love? (“faith alone”)

We can see from the book of Revelation, in the letters to the Churches, that Christ expects the Church to “endure” in every age.

Rev 2:2-7
2 "‘I know your works, your toil and your patient endurance…I know you are enduring patiently and bearing up for my name’s sake, and you have not grown weary. 4 But I have this against you, that you have abandoned the love you had at first. 5 Remember then from what you have fallen, repent and do the works you did at first. If not, I will come to you and remove your lampstand from its place, unless you repent. 6 Yet this you have, you hate the works of the Nicola’itans, which I also hate. 7 He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches. To him who conquers I will grant to eat of the tree of life, which is in the paradise of God.’

What does this imply about those who do not conquer?

Rev 2:9-11
9 "‘I know your tribulation and your poverty (but you are rich) and the slander of those who say that they are Jews and are not, but are a synagogue of Satan. 10 Do not fear what you are about to suffer. Behold, the devil is about to throw some of you into prison, that you may be tested, and for ten days you will have tribulation. Be faithful unto death, and I will give you the crown of life. 11 He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches. He who conquers shall not be hurt by the second death.’

Sure sounds like the Church in Smyrna was about to go into some “tribulation”. It is not reasonable for any Christian to think they will be spared suffering, since we are not greater than our Master.

What does this passage say about those who abandon their faith? Fail to conquer?

Rev 2:15-17
16 Repent then. If not, I will come to you soon and war against them with the sword of my mouth. 17 He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches. To him who conquers I will give some of the hidden manna, and I will give him a white stone, with a new name written on the stone which no one knows except him who receives it.’

This letter is written to believers. What will happen to those who do not repent? Can anyone survive the Sword of the Spirit?

Rev 2:19-29

19 "‘I know your works, your love and faith and service and patient endurance,… And all the churches shall know that I am he who searches mind and heart, and I will give to each of you as your works deserve. … only hold fast what you have, until I come. 26 He who conquers and who keeps my works until the end, I will give him power over the nations, 27 and he shall rule them with a rod of iron, as when earthen pots are broken in pieces, even as I myself have received power from my Father; 28 and I will give him the morning star. 29 He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches.’

On what basis are the Christians to be judged?

What must one do to conquer?

What will happen to those who do not endure? These passages are referring to events that occurred in the first century. The Apostles taught that endurance to the end cannot be separated from justification by faith.

Some say this, some say that - what does GOD say?
This is a very good point, and is the reason Jesus appointed a teaching authority in the Church. Without, the danger of everyone doing "what is right in their own eyes’ is too great.
always_gr8ful;5175766:

That’s why I love His Word. Without Truth, there is no Truth and it’s all subjective, left up to whoever has the best argument. But first, ya gotta believe there IS the Truth of His Word. It’ll set you free.

This is so true! It is also why the Church is the pillar and ground of the Truth. Jesus promised HIs Spirit, to lead the Church into “all Truth” and to remind them of what He had said. The HS is how the Church is prevented from error, and is able to uphold the Truth.

 

[Reuben_J]

Now I personally believe I did have faith. I used to quarrel with atheists,

I know that. You used to say you would scold people who are jerks.

But now you are an atheist yourself. Don’t you think you are eating your own word? I used to be like that except on the opposite direction.

I had a passion for Christ, I was extremely conservative, I had guilt for sinning against god,

You shouldn’t do this. You are contradicting yourself. You said are good almost to a fault.

Most sins which are against God are also against man.

and I rarely entertained any doubt in my mind with regard to Christianity.

Good for you. You should not be here. You said yourself that mythology does not really interest you. You can expect what we’ll tell you here. You had been there and done them. You know who we are, so what are you doing here? Lonely? Perhaps.

But I thought atheists loves worldly pleasure and detest religion, and that’s where they are. You should belong there unless you are the odd one out, which seems funny, for a person who loves worldly thing to torture themselves with the spiritual.

However, I lost my faith.

Where and when did you lost it OR could it never been there in the first place? You thought you had it but in fact it never was there. An illusion or thing forced upon you by your parents or peer pressure.

Now a days I hear televangelists like Osteen say things like just say this little prayer, and we believe you will be saved (inferring they’re immediately saved upon professing Christ). This is why I say things can become self-fulfilling.

We have differences with Protestantism though.

 

[humble_in_doubt]

I know that. You used to say you would scold people who are jerks.

I never used the word “jerk” to describe those who disagreed with me (even when I was religious I was more enlightened than that).

You shouldn’t do this. You are contradicting yourself. You said are good almost to a fault.

Most sins which are against God are also against man.

I didn’t become an atheist out of convenience (because I had an uncontrollable desire to sin more). In fact I’m probably better behaved now. Not because I lost my religion, but just because I’m older and wiser (and as we get older we become less predisposed to poor behavior … whether religious or not).

Good for you. You should not be here. You said yourself that mythology does not really interest you. You can expect what we’ll tell you here. You had been there and done them. You know who we are, so what are you doing here? Lonely? Perhaps.

Man … I’m still in my hotel room, 1,500 miles away from home (ahh I miss NYC). Lonely, bored, etc.? Yeah probably (but I can assure you when I return home you probably won’t see me here again, I suppose you’ll be relieved).

But I thought atheists loves worldly pleasure and detest religion, and that’s where they are. You should belong there unless you are the odd one out, which seems funny, for a person who loves worldly thing to torture themselves with the spiritual.

there you go thinking again

Atheist do not all think the same … we’re not all sheep in the same flock (last I checked that’s you guys isn’t it?)

Where and when did you lost it OR could it never been there in the first place? You thought you had it but in fact it never was there. An illusion or thing forced upon you by your parents or peer pressure.

who knows … but you’ll think in whatever way justifies what you believe to yourself.

We have differences with Protestantism though.

really … I never noticed

 

[Charlemagne_II]

humble

*I didn’t become an atheist out of convenience (because I had an uncontrollable desire to sin more). In fact I’m probably better behaved now. Not because I lost my religion, but just **because I’m older and wiser **(and as we get older we become less predisposed to poor behavior … whether religious or not). *

I think we get better not because we get wiser, but because we get tired of sin.

Think about it. You really have to work hard to be a successful pill-pusher, prostitute, or politician.

 

[humble_in_doubt]

humble

*I didn’t become an atheist out of convenience (because I had an uncontrollable desire to sin more). In fact I’m probably better behaved now. Not because I lost my religion, but just **because I’m older and wiser ***(and as we get older we become less predisposed to poor behavior … whether religious or not).

I think we get better not because we get wiser, but because we get tired of sin.

Think about it. You really have to work hard to be a successful pill-pusher, prostitute, or politician.

not a bad theory … of course I’ve never been a pill-pusher, hooker, or politician (so I wouldn’t know)