Is this true in the U.S.A.?

[Sister_Amy]

This is part of my point! Why was he turning the boy’s head away? Why was there an assumption made that the boy had prurient or deviant thoughts? He might have thought she was pretty, he might have just been listening to her and focusing on her face as she talked, whatever. There is nothing wrong or sinful with looking at people and to assign perverted or lustful thoughts to everything is abnormal. That is part of why I think Muhammad was abnormal. He had trouble living in normal society for whatever reason and maybe it bothered him and he tried to control his perverted behaviors by coming up with the Quran. I don’t know. I only know that as fervent as you are in your faith, I am a million times more certain that the Quran is NOT the word of God and that Jesus Christ is Lord forever and ever.

But, as always, I appreciate your dialogue.

Happy New Year!

I thought it was common knowledge that men are aroused through visual stimulation. And didn’t Jesus say that if your eye causes you to commit adultery then you ought to gouge it out? Would you say Jesus was abnormal or extreme for that?

In fact, in the Qur’an Muslims are told not to even come close to adultery. Not just to not commit it, but not to even get close to it. All the pathways are closed. A man and a woman being alone together, for instance, even for perfectly benign purposes. Because feelings might grow between them. Men and women don’t spend time alone together until they are married. And they aren’t supposed to see each other except what’s shown in public either. The way the boy was looking at the girl clearly indicates it was inappropriate, that he was staring and looking at her in a lustful way. So Muhammad turned the boy’s head. (Instead of telling the girl to go away or cover her face, was my point actually.)

 

[Sister_Amy]

I’m sure God prefers 6AM prayers to punishment, but does God still require these types of punishments?

Are these punishments still enforced by Islamic governments in present times?

There aren’t any purely Islamic governments–only governments which implement some portion of Islamic law. Some punishments are enforced, others are not. Sometimes, royalty is exempt (which is condemned in Islam to put people above the law) or the standards for prosecution are different.

There are very few crimes for which there is a hadd punishment. Very few. Adultery, murder, rape, and theft, and treason are the only ones I know of. In the USA these crimes are also punished, except for adultery.

 

[Jay53]

I thought it was common knowledge that men are aroused through visual stimulation. And didn’t Jesus say that if your eye causes you to commit adultery then you ought to gouge it out? Would you say Jesus was abnormal or extreme for that?

In fact, in the Qur’an Muslims are told not to even come close to adultery. Not just to not commit it, but not to even get close to it. All the pathways are closed. A man and a woman being alone together, for instance, even for perfectly benign purposes. Because feelings might grow between them. Men and women don’t spend time alone together until they are married. And they aren’t supposed to see each other except what’s shown in public either. The way the boy was looking at the girl clearly indicates it was inappropriate, **that he was staring and looking at her in a lustful **way. So Muhammad turned the boy’s head. (Instead of telling the girl to go away or cover her face, was my point actually.)

This is a bit extreme and unnecessary! Just because something might happen? That’s like useless worry. I am all for avoiding the near occasion of sin, but men and women just interacting is NOT the near occasion of sin - it is only when the men and/or women don’t control their thoughts and actions.

And I must have missed the “lustful” comment in the story. If so, I apologize.

I should also explain where I’m coming from too. I work in a male dominated field, so I interact with men all the time. There are no lustful thoughts going on in our day to day work. And to restrict my work and the use of my God given talents just because someone else MIGHT not be able to control themselves is a waste of the talents God has given me. Men in society should be able to control their thoughts and actions. If they have trouble doing that, then THEY are the ones at fault and need to seek counseling or whatever. The solution is not to blame the woman and make her cover up (assuming she was dressed modestly to begin with. - a woman in a business suit in and of itself is not a near occasion of sin.) There needs to be personal responsibility for one’s own actions and thoughts.

 

[Sister_Amy]

This is a bit extreme and unnecessary! Just because something might happen? That’s like useless worry. I am all for avoiding the near occasion of sin, but men and women just interacting is NOT the near occasion of sin - it is only when the men and/or women don’t control their thoughts and actions.

I think perhaps this is relative. A parent wouldn’t let a teenage daughter sleep in the same bed as her boyfriend, right? Would the parent let them sleep in the same room, even? Let them sit together in the dark? Where is the line?

In Islam, it’s pretty clear. Things that you say “might” happen actually do happen all the time in the USA, attested to by the increase in teenage pregnancy. Men and women interacting is not necessarily near the sin. But if they are alone, for long periods of time, that is. So they need to be in public (i.e., not alone), and properly covered. It’s a precaution.

And I must have missed the “lustful” comment in the story. If so, I apologize.

I think it is implied.

I should also explain where I’m coming from too. I work in a male dominated field, so I interact with men all the time.

As do I. I’m the only female in the group. And since I’m still in school, often the only girl in the class as well. (electrical engineering)

There are no lustful thoughts going on in our day to day work.

And on this, I disagree. There are. I even get to listen sometimes to what the guys are talking about. My sorority used to offer guidelines for women engineers at works–things like not wearing a skirt. Wearing especially conservative clothes, because the woman will be around a lot of men who really don’t need to see her in anything other than a professional way–so she ought to dress with particular modesty.

And to restrict my work and the use of my God given talents just because someone else MIGHT not be able to control themselves is a waste of the talents God has given me.

Personally, I don’t really like my job. But if I did, I’d keep working. And I would cover my body–dress modestly, and behave in such a way that I’m not secluded with anyone or socializing unnecessarily. Nobody said you had to waste your talents.

Men in society should be able to control their thoughts and actions.

Yes, they should. Why not help them in that regard? Women should also be able to control their thoughts–men aren’t the only ones who sometimes aren’t totally innocent.

If they have trouble doing that, then THEY are the ones at fault and need to seek counseling or whatever. The solution is not to blame the woman and make her cover up (assuming she was dressed modestly to begin with. - a woman in a business suit in and of itself is not a near occasion of sin.) There needs to be personal responsibility for one’s own actions and thoughts.

Yep. The point is not to forbid women from working at all, it is to encourage modesty, and discourage men from inappropriate behavior. It takes effort on both sides–an effort for men, and an effort for women–to help the society.

 

[Jay53]

Yes, they should. Why not help them in that regard? Women should also be able to control their thoughts–men aren’t the only ones who sometimes aren’t totally innocent.

Yep. The point is not to forbid women from working at all, it is to encourage modesty, and discourage men from inappropriate behavior. It takes effort on both sides–an effort for men, and an effort for women–to help the society.

You and I are actually in agreement on this subject. My idea of “helping them in that regard” however, doesn’t involve completely covering my body from head to toe. I expect everyone to be responsible for their own thoughts/behaviors. If someone else is dressed in a manner that would cause me to sin, I would look away or stay away etc. I am responsible for my own actions. I certainly wouldn’t say “You’re causing me to sin, do something about it!”.

I’m sorry you don’t like your job. I actually like mine - I hope you find a job you like.

 

[bpbasilphx]

You know, one time a woman came to ask him a question while he was sitting on a camel or something with a young boy. The woman’s face was uncovered, and the boy kept staring at her. So what did Muhammad do? This is interesting. Muhammad kept turning the boy’s head away so he wouldn’t stare at the girl. He turned the boy’s head, then the boy looked back at the girl. And then he turned the boy’s head again, and so on. Just an interesting story I recently heard.

**And just why was Mahomet looking at a woman whose face was uncovered? HMMMMMMMM???

Of course, since he was a pedophile, this is a small point.

Isa akbar!

Isa akbar!

ISA AKBAR!

I bear witness there is NO GOD but Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, and Jesus is God Incarnate risen from the dead.**

 

[jastor]

LOL… it’s a Pakistani thing. Being Pakistani is a source of personal pride and identity. Think of all those Americans who drive around with Italy flags and identify themselves as Italian. America is a melting pot. We can tolerate Italians and Irish and Pakistanis too.

My dh considers himself an American and not a Pakistani. He never wants to return.
I think this issue is a individual issue or something that is “taught” to children.