Is this true?

[Ockham]

Bingo. For many here, as long as the latin, chant and smells & bells is there, then everything is fine. The *performance *seems to be of primary importance.

Wrong. Once again your disdainful prejudice is clouding your thought process. The Holy Sacrifice of the Mass is not entertainment. If anything resembles performance it is your local Novus Ordo with the priest facing the audience, supporting cast of laity, and liturgical planners. Every action in the EF has meaning and has served the Church well for centuries (that’s why it was codified at Trent). The NO can’t say the same.

 

[ProVobis]

This; again is an aesthetic problem for people; not a spiritual one.

Perhaps. But don’t we have a right to wonder if our sins in confession are forgiven if the priest uses a different formula? Aren’t our very faith and our entire belief and trust system at risk or compromised when we see novelties of any kind?

 

[ljubim]

I often wonder if people said the same thing when the Tridentine Rite came about in the first place.

We are here to celebrate the Sacrament of Eucharist; not to have fun or be able to pat ourselves on the back with all forms of ludicrous aires and comforts; the Eucharist is a celebration and a Sacrament not some absurd dance.

Some of the complaints in the article are understandable; but some are just plain ridiculous; for example:

The Priest acts in the person of Christ; did not Christ face the disciples at the last supper?

Likewise; this is more of a practical concern; did Christ have an ornate alter; or do we merely want to serve our own ego’s instead of the love and celebration of the Sacrament?

Did Christ serve over a Communion rail?

These things; like ornate alters and other such frivolous waste distract from the sacrifice of the Eucharist.

This; again is an aesthetic problem for people; not a spiritual one.

Likewise; did the Disciples get hand-fed by Christ?!

If only we were able to go back in time and chastise Jesus for not using Latin.

I cannot see any reason why these would pose any problem to anyone. It seems people are more concerned with fanciful airs than the Sacraments. Which is alarming, and bordering on idolatry.

I hope ignorance is bliss for you

 

[Timothysis]

Wrong. Once again your disdainful prejudice is clouding your thought process.

Wrong. I have no “disdainful prejudice” against any form of the Roman Rite, either OF or EF, something that cannot be said for you or many others here; I believe they are both equally efficacious in doing what they do and are both equally pleasing to God. If you believe different, then it is YOUR “disdainful prejudice” that is clouding things.

The Holy Sacrifice of the Mass is not entertainment.

Who said that it was? Yet, there are many here who have voiced a desire to see the head coverings, hear the latin and the chant, smell the incense and view the actions of the priest as if it were some kind of performance.

If anything resembles performance it is your local Novus Ordo with the priest facing the audience, supporting cast of laity, and liturgical planners.

Really? So you’ve been to St. Agnes in Baton Rouge? I’m sure the good monsignor would be puzzled to think that his celebration of the mass was considered a “performance,” facing an “audience,” rather than a sincere, reverent celebration of the mass of which I’ve been accustomed to for probably the last 15 years or so. Of course, monsignor also celebrates the latin mass at 9:30 on Sunday mornings and holy day vigils, too; is this the “performance” of which you speak?

Every action in the EF has meaning and has served the Church well for centuries (that’s why it was codified at Trent). The NO can’t say the same.

Tell that to the little old ladies who are saying their rosaries during the EF.

 

[Student09]

Tell that to the little old ladies who are saying their rosaries during the EF.

I see this objection a lot but I don’t see what’s so terrible about praying a rosary during the EF. Bernadette Soubirous grew up doing this, but it didn’t prevent the Blessed Mother from appearing to her eighteen times and her becoming a saint. I’m not saying it’s what everyone should do, but surely it is not bad, as those who cite it against the EF would like to make it out to be.

 

[Timothysis]

I see this objection a lot but I don’t see what’s so terrible about praying a rosary during the EF. Bernadette Soubirous grew up doing this, but it didn’t prevent the Blessed Mother from appearing to her eighteen times and her becoming a saint. I’m not saying it’s what everyone should do, but surely it is not bad, as those who cite it against the EF would like to make it out to be.

Part of the reason for the Vatican II Council was to address the “mechanical” way that the faith was being practiced. While the rosary is certainly a very worthwhile devotion, mass is not the proper time or place to practice it.

Do you not think that one should, at mass, participate in the liturgy and not personal devotions?

 

[Jacob21]

I will stay out of this argument for the moment. However I am curious to see if the Prophecies are accepted by the Church. Anyone know?

 

[Ockham]

Wrong. I have no “disdainful prejudice” against any form of the Roman Rite, either OF or EF, something that cannot be said for you or many others here; I believe they are both equally efficacious in doing what they do and are both equally pleasing to God. If you believe different, then it is YOUR “disdainful prejudice” that is clouding things.

You have a disdainful prejudice against traditional Catholics as proven in this post.

BTW, the pope said ad populus was like the priest facing the audience. Take up your grievance with him.

The Mass is a prayer. I suspect those little old ladies didn’t have a missal so did the next best thing and said the rosary. Their head coverings have biblical and cultural significance not merely a performance intended to make themselves look holier than thou.

 

[Timothysis]

You have a disdainful prejudice against traditional Catholics as proven in this post.

BTW, the pope said ad populus was like the priest facing the audience. Take up your grievance with him.

The Mass is a prayer. I suspect those little old ladies didn’t have a missal so did the next best thing and said the rosary. Their head coverings have biblical and cultural significance not merely a performance intended to make themselves look holier than thou.

Sure. I mean, you do know me so well, don’t you???

The next time I go to mass I guess I should refrain from singing all of the old catholic hymns that we use, chant the Agnes dei, or receive on the tongue at the altar rail since I have such a "disdainful prejudice against traditional Catholics as proven in this post."

Speak of what you know.

 

[Student09]

Part of the reason for the Vatican II Council was to address the “mechanical” way that the faith was being practiced. While the rosary is certainly a very worthwhile devotion, mass is not the proper time or place to practice it.

Do you not think that one should, at mass, participate in the liturgy and not personal devotions?

I don’t see the dichotomy here - I don’t see why personal devotions such as the rosary cannot *be *a participation in the liturgy. The rosary is a meditative prayer. For those who pray the rosary regularly, it can actually enhance prayerful attentiveness to other things - the mysteries, or the Mass. It’s better than thinking about the football game or what you are going to buy at the grocery store.

 

[ProVobis]

Part of the reason for the Vatican II Council was to address the “mechanical” way that the faith was being practiced.

To some extent that’s true. However, it finally ended up “modernizing” the way the faith was being practiced.

Please document where the rosary and private prayer were prohibited by the council, or where communion rails needed to be removed, priest needed to face the people, and where they could play fast and loose with the liturgy.

 

[Timothysis]

Please document where the rosary and private prayer were prohibited by the council, or where communion rails needed to be removed, priest needed to face the people, and where they could play fast and loose with the liturgy.

I never maintained any such thing. Do not put words in my mouth.

 

[Jacob21]

Charity my friends. Let us not divide the Church anymore than she already is.

 

[Student09]

Charity my friends. Let us not divide the Church anymore than she already is.

 

[Timothysis]

I don’t see the dichotomy here - I don’t see why personal devotions such as the rosary cannot *be *a participation in the liturgy. The rosary is a meditative prayer. For those who pray the rosary regularly, it can actually enhance prayerful attentiveness to other things - the mysteries, or the Mass. It’s better than thinking about the football game or what you are going to buy at the grocery store.

From the 1974 Aposolic Exhortation “Marilias Cultus” at vatican.va/holy_father/pa…cultus_en.html :
“31. … Secondly there are those who, without wholesome liturgical and pastoral criteria, mix practices of piety and liturgical acts in hybrid celebrations. It sometimes happens that novenas or similar practices of piety are inserted into the very celebration of the Eucharistic Sacrifice. This creates the danger that the Lord’s Memorial Rite, instead of being the culmination of the meeting of the Christian community, becomes the occasion, as it were, for devotional practices.** For those who act in this way we wish to recall the rule laid down by the Council prescribing that exercises of piety should be harmonized with the liturgy not merged into it.”**

Also at the end of n. 48: "In fact, meditation on the mysteries of the Rosary, by familiaring the hearts and minds of the faithful with the mysteries of Christ, can be an excellent preparation for the creation of those same mysteries in the liturgical action and an also become a continuing echo thereof. However, it is a mistake to recite the Rosary during the celebration of the liturgy, though unfortunately this practice still persists here and there."

 

[Ockham]

Calm down Tim. You made an inflammatory post and got a reaction. Cause and effect.

Perhaps you shouldn’t make generalized statements and then use your own personal situation as a defence.

A return to the OP might be a good idea.

 

[Student09]

From the 1974 Aposolic Exhortation “Marilias Cultus” at vatican.va/holy_father/pa…cultus_en.html :

Also at the end of n. 48: "In fact, meditation on the mysteries of the Rosary, by familiaring the hearts and minds of the faithful with the mysteries of Christ, can be an excellent preparation for the creation of those same mysteries in the liturgical action and an also become a continuing echo thereof. However, it is a mistake to recite the Rosary during the celebration of the liturgy, though unfortunately this practice still persists here and there."

There is a difference between a “mistake” and an evil that can only be remedied by radically changing the Mass. Also, there are some strange statements in this letter … like this:

Devotion to the Blessed Virgin must also pay close attention to certain findings of the human sciences. This will help to eliminate one of the causes of the difficulties experienced in devotion to the Mother of the Lord, namely, the discrepancy existing between some aspects of this devotion and modern anthropological discoveries and the profound changes which have occurred in the psycho-sociological field in which modern man lives and works.

No disrespect to the Holy Father intended, but that is the weirdest thing I’ve read all day.

 

[Timothysis]

There is a difference between a “mistake” and an evil that can only be remedied by radically changing the Mass. Also, there are some strange statements in this letter … like this:

Its really very simple; the Mass is the supreme prayer of the Church, the source and summit of True Christian worship. All attention should be devoted to this, not the personal devotion of individuals.

 

[FAB]

When speaking of the OF and EF of the mass it would be better to follow the wisdom of the Pope Benedict and see that there is room and a place for both forms.
The attempt to say one form is better than another is more of one of personal preference. In the Church’s eyes they are equel in expressing the sacrafice of our Lord.
It is most disturbing that these discussion create a house divided against itself and we all know that it cannot stand.
At a time when there is reunification of the Holy Mother Church with other congregations, we have faithful Catholics who want to keep this unrest within the our own house.
Go and worship. If it in the EF of the mass, it is a beautiful expression that the church has to give praise and worship. If it is the OF of the mass the same is is true.
We as Catholics have greater concerns in the world that our energies should be focused upon. One is to re-evangalize North Amercia and the Holy Father is calling us to do. It’s time to put our sandles on our feet, staff in our hands, leave our cloak behind and go spread the word of our Lord.
Peace,
FAB

 

[Lycorth]

When speaking of the OF and EF of the mass it would be better to follow the wisdom of the Pope Benedict and see that there is room and a place for both forms.
The attempt to say one form is better than another is more of one of personal preference. In the Church’s eyes they are equel in expressing the sacrafice of our Lord.
It is most disturbing that these discussion create a house divided against itself and we all know that it cannot stand.
At a time when there is reunification of the Holy Mother Church with other congregations, we have faithful Catholics who want to keep this unrest within the our own house.
Go and worship. If it in the EF of the mass, it is a beautiful expression that the church has to give praise and worship. If it is the OF of the mass the same is is true.
We as Catholics have greater concerns in the world that our energies should be focused upon. One is to re-evangalize North Amercia and the Holy Father is calling us to do. It’s time to put our sandles on our feet, staff in our hands, leave our cloak behind and go spread the word of our Lord.
Peace,
FAB

Catholics should not dismiss liturgical reform because there are “better things to do” - there isn’t anything more important than reforming how Catholics have been approaching the Blessed Sacrament over the past 40 years.

Lex orandi - lex credendi. The law of prayer is the law of belief. How we pray affects how we live and how we approach our faith and life. The Church has many crucial problems to address, including the sex scandals of the recent past and the task of drawing lost sheep back into the fold, but reformation of how we pray is the most important task, the one upon which all others hinge. We will never see reform of the Church until we see reform of how we pray, because how we pray will directly affect how we believe, how we approach even the simplest tasks in our personal lives as well as church-related activities, and how we approach life itself.

Both the TLM needs to be brought to more churches and the OF needs to be reformed, its rubrics tightened both voluntarily and by Church order (and the Third Missal it seems will begin the work of this) to mirror the true and traditional reverence of the Church. We can’t just focus on everything else and ignore the way we pray; we will sabotage all our efforts to evangelize the world and root out problems in the Church if we fail at this. If we fail to reform how we presume to honor the Lord and treat His Sacraments, why should God bless our efforts?

Liturgical reform is at the heart of everything. Don’t let anyone tell you otherwise