O
Ockham
Guest
Who were you responding to?
- Status
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crazzeto
Guest
Talk of what we now call the Novos Ordo mass indeed was going on long before Vatican II, you can see in Fr. Adrian Fortescue’s The Mass: A Study of the Roman Liturgy which was originally published in 1912 admission that there is already much talk of a new mass in the venacular, but he puts this aside as a distraction to his subject matter.
However, I disagree that there was a concerted effort to undermine the faith. We Catholics have always professed unity of faith in doctrine as opposed to form (which the schismatic E. Orthodox maintain). Mass in the Latin was already a translation from the original Western Mass in the Greek, which is a product of a calling out of Africa where Greek died much more quickly than it did in Europe.
However, I disagree that there was a concerted effort to undermine the faith. We Catholics have always professed unity of faith in doctrine as opposed to form (which the schismatic E. Orthodox maintain). Mass in the Latin was already a translation from the original Western Mass in the Greek, which is a product of a calling out of Africa where Greek died much more quickly than it did in Europe.
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bkovacs
Guest
Another good example. The Ruthenians just revised their Divine Liturgy. Most Ruthinians did not support the change. They prefer the red book, vs the green book. And many today still don’t like it one bit, and are hoping it will be reversed. But they are still mandated to use it, in certain Eparchies if I understand it correctly.
byzcath.org/forums/ubbthreads.php/topics/319703/General%20Summary%20of%20How%20the%20RDL#Post319703
byzcath.org/forums/ubbthreads.php/topics/349062/%20Where%20are%20we%20at%20now?%20Possible#Post349062
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FAB
Guest
Yes, Yes, and there is no evidence to the contrary.
F
FAB
Guest
I am refering to the development of the Roman Catholic rite, don’t try to blur the issue.
Peace,
FAB
F
FAB
Guest
Only on this forum do I see anyone chocking.
M
martinfegan
Guest
This is what Cardinal Ratzinger had to say concerning the New Mass in his autobiiography.
The unprecedented manner in which Pope Paul VI imposed the Novus Ordo of the Mass created tragic consequences for the Roman Catholic Church, says Joseph Cardinal Ratzinger, prefect of the Sacred Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith, in his new autobiography.
Not only did the banning of the old Mass represent a severe departure from tradition, but the revolutionary manner in which the new Mass was imposed has created the impression that liturgy is something each community creates on its own, not something which “is given.”
Rather than being a force for unity in the Church, the new Mass has been the source of liturgical anarchy, dividing Catholics “into opposing party positions” and creating a situation in which the Church is “lacerating herself.”
Formally imposed after a six-month period of “liturgical experimentation” in which anything —and everything—did go, the Roman Catholic Mass has never attained a universality, stability—or even an element of predictably—for most Catholics around the world; but instead has been a stimulus for never-ending innovations—from altar girls to dancing girls to women priests.
While the Missal of Paul VI “brought with it some authentic improvements and a real enrichment,” the banning of the old Mass caused some “extremely serious damages for us,” he wrote in La Mia Vita, released in mid-April in its Italian translation.
“I was dismayed by the banning of the old Missal,” he wrote, "seeing that a similar thing had never happened in the entire history of the liturgy…
"The promulgation of the banning of the Missal that had been developed in the course of centuries. starting from the time of the sacramentaries of the ancient Church, has brought with it a break in the history of the liturgy whose consequences could be tragic… The old structure was broken to pieces and another was constructed admittedly with material of which the old structure had been made and using also the preceding models…
"But the fact that [the liturgy] was presented as a new structure, set up against what had been formed in the course of history and was now prohibited, and that the liturgy was made to appear in some ways no longer as a living process but as a product of specialized knowledge and juridical competence, has brought with it some extremely serious damages for us.
"In this way, in fact, the impression has arisen that the liturgy is ‘made,’ that it is not something that exists before us, something ‘given,’ but that it depends on our decisions. It follows as a consequence that this decision-making capacity is not recognized only in specialists or in a central authority, but that, in the final analysis, each ‘community’ wants to give itself its own liturgy. But when the liturgy is something each one makes by himself, then it no longer gives us what is its true quality: encounter with the mystery which is not our product but our origin and the wellspring of our life…
"I am convinced that the ecclesial crisis in which we find ourselves today depends in great part upon the collapse of the liturgy, which at times is actually being conceived of etsi Deus non daretur: as though in the liturgy it did not matter any more whether God exists and whether He speaks to us and listens to us.
“But if in the liturgy the communion of faith no longer appears, nor the universal unity of the Church and of her history, nor the mystery of the living Christ, where is it that the Church still appears in her spiritual substance?,” he asked.
Too often, Ratzinger lamented, “the community is only celebrating itself without its being worthwhile to do so.”
The book’s German title translates to: From My Life: Remembrances 1927-1977.
On at least two other occasions, Cardinal Ratzinger has criticized specific liturgical abuses, while on other highly publicized events, such as the Ordinations of seminarians into the Priestly Fraternity of St. Peter, he has praised the beauty of the old Mass.
But his newly released autobiography is the first prolonged lament over the wholesale replacement of one liturgy with another.
In 1969, Pope Paul VI issued his General Instruction of the Roman Missal, revising the Order of the Mass and related prayers. The old Mass rite was to be banned, with few exceptions, after a transition period of several months.
Although the Mass had undergone evolutionary changes through the history of the Church, there was always a sense of “continuity,” Ratzinger wrote. Even Pope Pius V, who reworked the Roman Missal. in 1570 following the Council of Trent, allowed for the continued use of some liturgies with centuries-long traditions.
Cardinal Ratzinger said there "is need for a new liturgical. movement to call back to life the true heritage of Vatican Council II.
“For the life of the Church, it is dramatically urgent to have a renewal of liturgical. awareness, a liturgical reconciliation, which goes back to recognizing the unity in the history of the liturgy and understands Vatican II not as a break, but as a developing moment.”
The unprecedented manner in which Pope Paul VI imposed the Novus Ordo of the Mass created tragic consequences for the Roman Catholic Church, says Joseph Cardinal Ratzinger, prefect of the Sacred Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith, in his new autobiography.
Not only did the banning of the old Mass represent a severe departure from tradition, but the revolutionary manner in which the new Mass was imposed has created the impression that liturgy is something each community creates on its own, not something which “is given.”
Rather than being a force for unity in the Church, the new Mass has been the source of liturgical anarchy, dividing Catholics “into opposing party positions” and creating a situation in which the Church is “lacerating herself.”
Formally imposed after a six-month period of “liturgical experimentation” in which anything —and everything—did go, the Roman Catholic Mass has never attained a universality, stability—or even an element of predictably—for most Catholics around the world; but instead has been a stimulus for never-ending innovations—from altar girls to dancing girls to women priests.
While the Missal of Paul VI “brought with it some authentic improvements and a real enrichment,” the banning of the old Mass caused some “extremely serious damages for us,” he wrote in La Mia Vita, released in mid-April in its Italian translation.
“I was dismayed by the banning of the old Missal,” he wrote, "seeing that a similar thing had never happened in the entire history of the liturgy…
"The promulgation of the banning of the Missal that had been developed in the course of centuries. starting from the time of the sacramentaries of the ancient Church, has brought with it a break in the history of the liturgy whose consequences could be tragic… The old structure was broken to pieces and another was constructed admittedly with material of which the old structure had been made and using also the preceding models…
"But the fact that [the liturgy] was presented as a new structure, set up against what had been formed in the course of history and was now prohibited, and that the liturgy was made to appear in some ways no longer as a living process but as a product of specialized knowledge and juridical competence, has brought with it some extremely serious damages for us.
"In this way, in fact, the impression has arisen that the liturgy is ‘made,’ that it is not something that exists before us, something ‘given,’ but that it depends on our decisions. It follows as a consequence that this decision-making capacity is not recognized only in specialists or in a central authority, but that, in the final analysis, each ‘community’ wants to give itself its own liturgy. But when the liturgy is something each one makes by himself, then it no longer gives us what is its true quality: encounter with the mystery which is not our product but our origin and the wellspring of our life…
"I am convinced that the ecclesial crisis in which we find ourselves today depends in great part upon the collapse of the liturgy, which at times is actually being conceived of etsi Deus non daretur: as though in the liturgy it did not matter any more whether God exists and whether He speaks to us and listens to us.
“But if in the liturgy the communion of faith no longer appears, nor the universal unity of the Church and of her history, nor the mystery of the living Christ, where is it that the Church still appears in her spiritual substance?,” he asked.
Too often, Ratzinger lamented, “the community is only celebrating itself without its being worthwhile to do so.”
The book’s German title translates to: From My Life: Remembrances 1927-1977.
On at least two other occasions, Cardinal Ratzinger has criticized specific liturgical abuses, while on other highly publicized events, such as the Ordinations of seminarians into the Priestly Fraternity of St. Peter, he has praised the beauty of the old Mass.
But his newly released autobiography is the first prolonged lament over the wholesale replacement of one liturgy with another.
In 1969, Pope Paul VI issued his General Instruction of the Roman Missal, revising the Order of the Mass and related prayers. The old Mass rite was to be banned, with few exceptions, after a transition period of several months.
Although the Mass had undergone evolutionary changes through the history of the Church, there was always a sense of “continuity,” Ratzinger wrote. Even Pope Pius V, who reworked the Roman Missal. in 1570 following the Council of Trent, allowed for the continued use of some liturgies with centuries-long traditions.
Cardinal Ratzinger said there "is need for a new liturgical. movement to call back to life the true heritage of Vatican Council II.
“For the life of the Church, it is dramatically urgent to have a renewal of liturgical. awareness, a liturgical reconciliation, which goes back to recognizing the unity in the history of the liturgy and understands Vatican II not as a break, but as a developing moment.”
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FAB
Guest
Your putting cause and effect based on V2, but not on social trends and a gerneral turn away from religion due to secularism, a much greater threat to the Church than the OF.
The cause for all these things do not rest on a single event. The statistics show that that membership in the church is growing worldwide except for Europe.
The fall of vocations can be traced to affluency of developement nations, in developing nations their siminaries are overflowing, it’s one of the reasons that we import so many priest. The sacramet of penance fell due to a change in teaching, yes directly from V2. The change though moved away from damnation to one of true reconcilation with God.
Peace,
FAB
O
Ockham
Guest
And you are making a lot of excuses. You forgot to blame George Bush.
Do you have any evidence that shows the Church growing everywhere except Europe?
Cardinal Ratzinger described things perfectly in his autobiography as presented above.
Lex orendi, lex credendi. As you worship so you believe. By their fruits you shall know them.
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FAB
Guest
Not Excusse, reality.
Evidence from Wikipedia
Pope Benidict seems to be critiquing the total ban of the EF of the mass at the time it was done, that he has lifted. yet at the end he seems to agree with V2, perhaps because he ws part of the council with:
**For the life of the Church, it is dramatically urgent to have a renewal of liturgical. awareness, a liturgical reconciliation, which goes back to recognizing the unity in the history of the liturgy and understands Vatican II not as a break, but as a developing moment." **
Also, he is talking about renewal of liturgical awarenes. An important part since I do see that many Catholics fail to see the sacrafice and mystery of the mass, but that’s not because of the form used but lack of catichesis.
Peace,
FAB
O
Ockham
Guest
Maybe you are new to the internet so I’ll point out that Wikipedia is not a reliable nor credible source.
Do you honestly believe 1.66 Billion people go to Mass on Sunday?
Here’s the reality:
“Quebec’s churches need miracleParishes can’t afford to keep them, no one wants to buy them – even at fire-sale prices”
thestar.com/news/canada/article/594474
Do you honestly believe 1.66 Billion people go to Mass on Sunday?
Here’s the reality:
“Quebec’s churches need miracleParishes can’t afford to keep them, no one wants to buy them – even at fire-sale prices”
thestar.com/news/canada/article/594474
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Ockham
Guest
"Of particular interest to Catholic Christians is the fact that the Roman Catholic Church, according to the report, “…has experienced the greatest net losses as a result of affiliation changes.”
For a number of decades, the Catholic population of America stood solid at 25%.However, the data complied by Pew shows that there has been a huge decline in native-born Catholics in America.
About one third of the participants born to Catholic families indicated to the researchers that they no longer considered themselves to be Catholics. Thus, the report concludes “…that roughly 10 percent of all Americans are former Catholics.”"
catholic.org/national/national_story.php?id=26981
For a number of decades, the Catholic population of America stood solid at 25%.However, the data complied by Pew shows that there has been a huge decline in native-born Catholics in America.
About one third of the participants born to Catholic families indicated to the researchers that they no longer considered themselves to be Catholics. Thus, the report concludes “…that roughly 10 percent of all Americans are former Catholics.”"
catholic.org/national/national_story.php?id=26981
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BernadetteM
Guest
It seems apparent that Pope Benedict still feels this way as he now only allows people to receive from him kneeling and on the tongue.
Also he has offered the Anglicans entrance into the Church through the Apostolic Constitution, saying they will be bringing in their treasures. The Anglican Use uses a beautiful liturgy with beautiful hymns and chanting, and after the Ordinariates are established their liturgy will be revised, I believe more in line with the Anglican Missal which is very close to the TLM, with the additional prayers that the Anglican church has used from the beginning. All the prayers are Catholic in nature.
Yours in the Hearts of Jesus and Mary
Bernadette
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FAB
Guest
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At_Trent
Guest
He ordained them. You do believe that don’t you ? And he made it clear they were receiving something other than bread and wine. They were priests at that point.Likewise; did the Disciples get hand-fed by Christ?!
The Last Supper is an appropriate title for the event. No longer was the breaking of bread a symbolic ritual preceding a meal.
Yes, in the early days, the laity received in the hand. The right hand, not the left. And women had a cloth on their hand. They raised the hand and took the host in their mouth off the cloth.
Time passed and as the Church developed Her Doctrines and Dogmas, it was determined that the Eucharist was such a precious gift to us, only those whose hands are consecrated were to touch the Blessed Sacrament.
EVERYTHING has been an about face
-The Altar without the Tabernacle.
-The priest with his back to it.
-CITH.
-Altar girls and women in the Sanctuary.
-EMHC’s.
-Standing while receiving.
-A reversal, nodding toward the Old Covenant, in the prayers of the OF.
-Praying with those of other faiths as if to validate their exclusion from the Church, instead of praying for their conversion.
-A generation of Catholics who believe Christ said “for all” when he most certainly didn’t.
With the internet, it’s all on the table. The playing field is level. Roman Catholics are more informed about the impact the revolutionary changes since VII. There is a new Liturgical movement by both those in the Hierarchy, and laity alike. And that movement is heading toward Tradition, as it always has, and must.
“Even if Catholics faithful to Tradition are reduced to a handful, they are the ones who are the true Church of Jesus Christ.”
St. Athanasius AD 373
And the last Pope to become a saint agreed
“Indeed, the true friends of the people are neither revolutionaries, nor innovators: they are traditionalists.”
Pope St. Pius X Notre Charge Apostolique
If you’d like a source for my statement regarding CITH, just click the first link in my signature and listen to a Bishop in full communion with the Holy See explain it.
O
Ockham
Guest
It’s good form to provide links to supporting evidence:
catholicnewsagency.com/news/catholic_church_shows_robust_growth_in_u.s._membership_new_report_says/
Here’s something you may have missed (emphasis mine):
“*She also noted that the largest plurality of **immigrants *to the U.S. in the last 50 years have been Christian”
1.5% is not ‘robust’ especially in comparison to the Mormons who grew at 1.7% according to Rev. Eileen. Factor in the number of Catholic immigrants. Did you even read the PEW report?
From the “Related News” section (emphasis mine):catholicnewsagency.com/news/study_reports_stunning_u.s._catholic_population_shift_alongside_growing_secularization/
“*According to the ARIS report, Catholic numbers and percentages rose in many states in the South and West mainly due to **immigration/**U].”
BTW, your Wikipedia link states 65% of Americans are Catholics. Do the math and it contradicts your latest ‘evidence’.*
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ProVobis
Guest
One of the priests in the Chicago archdiocese reported that the growth was in the Polish and hispanic Catholic communities. The English Church attendance is dropping.
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FAB
Guest
So the Polish and Hispanic communities are less Catholic??
My ancestry is Irish, I’m certain some the same could have been said for that group of imagrants as well.
The bottom line is that he church as a whole is growing, this should be celebrated as the Lord message being fullfilled “go and spread the Gospel the all peoples”. Instead posters on this site want to continue to see the the negative and critisize the Church.
We should celebrate our diverisity, brothers and sisters, there is no nationality with God.
Peace,
FAB
F
FAB
Guest
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