Is this true?

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So the Polish and Hispanic communities are less Catholic??:confused::eek:
Seriously? If so then you completely missed the point. The point is the Church growth numbers are not due to new conversions, but existing Catholics moving into the country. Existing American Catholics are declining. No one here is criticizing the Church, merely dealing with the reality of the past forty years.
 
Seriously? If so then you completely missed the point. The point is the Church growth numbers are not due to new conversions, but existing Catholics moving into the country. Existing American Catholics are declining. No one here is criticizing the Church, merely dealing with the reality of the past forty years.
So you don’t count the conversions in South America and Africa and other nations as growth of the faith?
You point has been that the church is decline because of the OF and restoration of the EF would turn that around, but yet we are in our second generation since V2 and the size of the membership of the worldwide church has held steady and in fact grown.
There is an issue with Europe and to some extent North America, but I contend this is due to a securlization of the populous, as well as a general attack on any thing that Christian. Also the reason why the pope has started a pontificat for evangelization focusing on America and Europe.
It’s the reason why I think conversations like this are interesting, but not productive as to advancing the faith. We as Catholics need a united front, our own auguments within ourselves prevent us from doing so.
Ockham, from other post it appeared that you are part of a religious order. Is it not your primary call to bring people to Christ. I know that it is a large part of my calling. As such I want them to come into a church which is welcoming and united. That they can come to the great sacrafice in our mass, OF or EF and find thier salvation within our teachings.
Unless this is our mission, the rest of our conversation is just academic.

Peace,
FAB
 
So you don’t count the conversions in South America and Africa and other nations as growth of the faith?
Sure, count it, but that is as we say ‘new business’. “Established business” those born Catholic are in decline. What’s going to happen when all the missionary business is done?
You point has been that the church is decline because of the OF and restoration of the EF would turn that around, but yet we are in our second generation since V2 and the size of the membership of the worldwide church has held steady and in fact grown.
The EF did a pretty good job evangelizing and the Church’s growth lately has not been significant.

“*In 2008 there were 1.166 billion baptized Catholics worldwide, an increase of 19 million (up 1.7%). Taking into account the increase in the world’s population to 6.7 billion, there is a **slight growth **in the percentage of Catholics who make up the global population (from 17.33% to 17.40%).” *

zenit.org/article-28425?l=english

By your source, the Mormon Church is growing quicker.
There is an issue with Europe and to some extent North America, but I contend this is due to a securlization of the populous, as well as a general attack on any thing that Christian.
True, that is your opinion. Perhaps the West is secularizing because of a broken down liturgy.
We as Catholics need a united front, our own auguments within ourselves prevent us from doing so.
We were united before the Novus Ordo came about.
Ockham, from other post it appeared that you are part of a religious order.
Which post was that? I did ask you if you are a Franscian, to which you haven’t replied.
Is it not your primary call to bring people to Christ. I know that it is a large part of my calling. As such I want them to come into a church which is welcoming and united.
The Church isn’t as welcoming as you make it out to be. There are rules and expectations, Jesus said so. Cause and effect; actions have consequences. Our Lady at Fatima told us many people will end up in Hell who never expected that result. Why is it most OF parishes I know have Confession on Saturday afternoons and poorly attended whereas the EF parishes I know have Confession daily and there are line-ups?

The objective isn’t people who check a box on a survey indictating whether they consider themselves Catholic or not, it’s about getting their soul to Heaven.
That they can come to the great sacrafice in our mass, OF or EF and find thier salvation within our teachings.
Unless this is our mission, the rest of our conversation is just academic.
You have to earn your salvation. You don’t get it merely by showing up at Mass whether OF or EF. That’s what Protestants believe.
 
Many of the “new things” that crept in over time were codified at Trent. As a result of the implementation of Trent, several very ancient liturgies were abolished. The Mass of Trent was also imposed on communities that never used it – it was quite new for them.

Pope Pius V himself changed the Missal and added the feast of Our Lady of Victory
His immediate successor, Pope Gregory XIII, changed the name of this feast to “The Most Holy Rosary of the Blessed Virgin Mary”
Pius V’s work in severely reducing the number of feasts in the Roman Calendar (see this comparison) was very soon further undone by his successors. Feasts that he had abolished, such as those of the Presentation of Mary, Saint Anne and Saint Anthony of Padua, were restored even before Clement VIII’s 1604 typical edition of the Missal was issued.
While keeping on 8 December what he called the feast of “the Conception of Blessed Mary” (omitting the word “Immaculate”), Pius V suppressed the existing special Mass for the feast, directing that the Mass for the Nativity of Mary (with the word “Nativity” replaced by “Conception”) be used instead. Part of that earlier Mass was revived in the Mass that Pope Pius IX ordered to be used on the feast.

In the 300 years after Trent (before Vatican II), many “new things” had crept into the Mass also

Protestant music: Bach, Hassler, Tallis
Vernacular hymns
Translations of the Mass texts into English
The use of handmissals
Dialogue Mass
A completely new Holy Week ceremony
A comparison between Pope Pius V’s Tridentine Calendar and the General Roman Calendar of 1954 shows the changes made from 1570 to 1954. Pope Pius XII made a general revision in 1955, and Pope John XXIII made further general revisions in 1960 simplifying the terminology concerning the ranking of liturgical celebrations.
After Pius V’s original Tridentine Roman Missal, the first new typical edition was promulgated in 1604 by Pope Clement VIII, who in 1592 had issued a revised edition of the Vulgate. The Bible texts in the Missal of Pope Pius V did not correspond exactly to the new Vulgate, and so Clement edited and revised Pope Pius V’s Missal, making alterations both in the scriptural texts and in other matters. He abolished some prayers that the 1570 Missal obliged the priest to say on entering the church; shortened the two prayers to be said after the Confiteor; directed that the words “Haec quotiescumque feceritis, in meam memoriam facietis” should not be said while displaying the chalice to the people after the consecration, but before doing so; inserted directions at several points of the Canon that the priest was to pronounce the words inaudibly; suppressed the rule that, at High Mass, the priest, even if not a bishop, was to give the final blessing with three signs of the cross; and rewrote the rubrics, introducing, for instance, the ringing of a small bell.
In 1911, with the bull Divino Afflatu,[36] Pope Pius X made significant changes in the rubrics. He died in 1914, so it fell to his successor Pope Benedict XV to issue a new typical edition incorporating his changes. This 1920 edition also included a new section headed: “Additions and Changes in the Rubrics of the Missal in accordance with the Bull Divino afflatu and the Subsequent Decrees of the Sacred Congregation of Rites”. This additional section was almost as long as the previous section on the “General Rubrics of the Missal”, which continued to be printed unchanged.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tridentine_Mass
The only rites that were surpresses after Trent were those that were less than 200 years old.
 
The celebration of the mass in the early Church did not resemble at all the EF. A tour of various Churchs in Rome and one can see that as the mass changed, so did the architecture, which is a flaw in your conclusion. The OF more resembles the early practice of the mass than does the EF, it is closer to early traditon.
In what? The priest faces the people? or holding hands around the table for the Our Father?

I can anywere in the world and participate in the OF. The language is less important thatn the common sacrafice that we share around the world which make us catholic, not the Latin or form of the mass
**It seems that opponents of the EF don’t share your view, usually it’s the language of the EF they are against. **

We are one united in Christ as His brothers and sisters. The “themes” as you call them reflect the multitude and the variaty of the family of God. The OF recognized those wonderful differences. The need to adjust to people for the celebration based on culture was recongized hundreds of years ago by the Jesuits. It was a Euopean culture that insisted to adherhance to Latin and a the EF of the mass.
I think you have it wrong here

One problem, you want to apply the marks of the Church as they apply to the mass and not to the Church as a whole as intended.

Peace,
FAB
 
So the Polish and Hispanic communities are less Catholic??:confused::eek:
My ancestry is Irish, I’m certain some the same could have been said for that group of imagrants as well.
The bottom line is that he church as a whole is growing, this should be celebrated as the Lord message being fullfilled “go and spread the Gospel the all peoples”. Instead posters on this site want to continue to see the the negative and critisize the Church.
We should celebrate our diverisity, brothers and sisters, there is no nationality with God.

Peace,
FAB
Novus Ordo took a longer time to get hold of the Hisapnic countries, there were many priest that were not too happy on the new form. I remember as a child when I visited Mexico, it was rare to see the type of masses that we see here. I am sure that has now changed, but I am not sure. The groth in the Latin countries really wasn’t due to the Mass (sad to say) but more because of the visits and special love John Paul II had for the Latin countries and also beacause of the miracle of Our Lady of Guadalupe. Many people agree if it wasn’t for Catholic immigrants in the past 40 years, the Church in America would be a lot smaller than what it is today.

To qutoe then Cardinal Ratzinger
1997 in “Salt of the Earth” (Ignatius Press), he explained it this way: “Maybe we are facing a new and different kind of epoch in the church’s history, where Christianity will again be characterized more by the mustard seed, where it will exist in small, seemingly insignificant groups that nonetheless live an intense struggle against evil and bring good into the world - that let God in.”
 
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