Is this true?

  • Thread starter Thread starter Monica4316
  • Start date Start date
Status
Not open for further replies.
M

Monica4316

Guest
I read on an Orthodox forum that some of the Ecumenical Council’s anathemas were changed at Vatican I to accommodate for the Papacy… is this true??? (it was not mentioned which ones)

I don’t even know how to find out the answer.
 
you can do a search on the web. there are several sites that may have the answer for you. good luck in your search.
may God Bless,
newbear
 
It would be better to ask on the same forum what these anathemas were, asking them to cite the precise source particularly. If a Catholic said something like this against the Orthodox, I would expect the same backing up of such an assertion. It is best not to pay a lot of attenton to such vague accusations of anyone.
 
Dear sister Monica,
I read on an Orthodox forum that some of the Ecumenical Council’s anathemas were changed at Vatican I to accommodate for the Papacy… is this true??? (it was not mentioned which ones)

I don’t even know how to find out the answer.
Can you be more specific about what these Orthodox are claiming - I mean, what anathema was suppose to have been changed?

From my studies of Vatican 1, it could refer to two possible things:

(1) During the debates on the Decree on the Primacy, one of the proposed Canons for consideration ran “If anyone says that the primacy of the Roman Pontiff is only the office of inspection and direction, and that his supreme power of jurisdiction over the universal Church is not full, but only extraordinary and mediate: let him be anathema.” Many Fathers protested that it is inappropriate to place an anathema on using the term “extraordinary” to describe the primatial prerogatives, because in practice, the primatial prerogatives are indeed ONLY exercised in extraordinary circumstances. The final form of the anathema (as contained in the Decree that anyone can access on the net) conceded this point.

(2) The Second draft of the definition in the Decree on the Infallibility contained the following clause: “such decrees or judgments [are] irreformible of themselves…” This was issued on May 9.

On July 9, the final form as we have it was formulated with the exception of the clause “and not from the consent of the Church.” and distributed to the Fathers for study.

On July 11, Bishop Gasser presented to the Council Fathers the Official Relatio, which explained that the clause “irreformible of themselves” meant that the infallibility of a papal decree is guaranteed not by the consensus of the Church, but by the special promise of Christ through the help of the Holy Spirit. It also explained that while the consensus of the Church was the Rule of Faith even for definitions by the Pope, there was no absolute necessity that this consensus be determined by inquiring of the matter to all the bishops of the world - i.e., the consensus was necessary, but the mode of determining the consensus was not dictated.

On July 13, the initial voting on the final draft was voted upon, with a last opportunity for the Fathers to submit emendations to the Decree.

On July 16, in response to the emendations submitted by the Fathers, the Committee de Fide (that was responsible for formulating the Decrees), added the clause “and not from the consent of the Church” to the Decree.

The final voting on the Decree took place on July 18.

As you can see, the idea of “not from the consent of the Church” was already contained in the Official Relatio. It’s addition to the Decree itself on the 16th did absolutely nothing to change the original intent of the Fathers before the addition.

If they press you on the matter of the clause “not from the consent of the Church,” explain to them that there is absolutely no patristic warrant to claim that the nature of a teaching as Truth depends on consensus. The only thing that objectively makes Truth what it is is nothing more nor less than the fact that it is from God. When St. Peter promulgated the first dogma of the Church to the Church in Jerusalem in Acts 11, the Truth of what he taught absolutely did not depend on any sort of consensus from the Church - in other words, it was irreformible not by the consent of the Church. Also point out to them that according to the Rule of Faith that is Apostolic Canon 34, the purpose of consensus is not to determine the Truth, but rather to ensure the unity of the Church. With this in mind, the statement from the Decree on the Infallibility that an ex cathedra decree is irreformible of itself and not from the consent of the Church violates not a single patristic principle.

Blessings,
Marduk
 
I read on an Orthodox forum that some of the Ecumenical Council’s anathemas were changed at Vatican I to accommodate for the Papacy… is this true??? (it was not mentioned which ones)

I don’t even know how to find out the answer.
December 7, 1965, The Pope and Ecumenical Patriarch Athenagoras I lifted the anathemas of 1054, simultaneously, at the Vatican and the Holy Synod of Constinople.

Not all Orthodox leaders liked this and it did not end the schism.
 
I imagine she is referring to the suppression of the Liber Diurnus with it’s reference to the Sixth Ecumenical Council’s anathema of Pope Honorius.
 
Dear brother Josephdaniel,
I imagine she is referring to the suppression of the Liber Diurnus with it’s reference to the Sixth Ecumenical Council’s anathema of Pope Honorius.
The matter was never suppressed and was fully debated at the Council. According to the OP, the claim is that one of the anathemas was changed. I’m 100% positive that there was never a reference to the Liber Diurnus in the Decree and later removed.

Blessings,
Marduk
 
I imagine she is referring to the suppression of the Liber Diurnus with it’s reference to the Sixth Ecumenical Council’s anathema of Pope Honorius.
The Catholic Encyclopedia says this about Formula 84 of the Liber Diurnus:

“Lucas Holstenius was the first who undertook to edit the Liber Diurnus. He had found one manuscript of it in the monastery of Santa Croce in Gerusalemme at Rome, and obtained another from the Jesuit Collège de Clermont at Paris; but as Holstenius died in the meantime and his notes could not be found, this edition printed at Rome in 1650 was withheld from publication, by advice of the ecclesiastical censors, and the copies put away in a room at the Vatican. The reason for so doing was apparently formula lxxxiv, which contained the profession of faith of the newly elected pope, in which the latter recognized the Sixth General Council and its anathemas against Pope Honorius for his (alleged) Monothelism.”

(Emphasis mine.)
newadvent.org/cathen/09215c.htm

As-Salamu alaykum,
zekariya
 
I just want to point something out to readers which may not be obvious. The “supression” of the Liber Diurnus occurred in the 17th century, not in the 19th century during Vatican 1.

It should also be noted that the “supression” of the Liber Diurnus was of very short duration. Here is the context of the partial citation given by brother Zekariya (which comes immediately after the section he quoted):
The edition of Holstenius was reprinted at Rome in 1658; but was again withdrawn in 1662 by papal authority, though in 1725 Benedict XIII permitted the issue of some copies. From the Clermont manuscript, which has since disappeared, Garnier prepared a new edition of the Liber Diurnus (Paris, 1680), but it is very inaccurate, and contains arbitrary alterations of the text. In his “Museum Italicum” (I, II, 32 sqq.) Mabillon issued a supplement to this edition of Garnier. From these materials, the Liber Diurnus was reprinted at Basle (1741), at Vienna (1762), and by Migne (P.L., CV, Paris, 1851).

I hope it was not brother Josephdaniel’s intention in post#6, nor brother Zekariya’s intention in this latest post, to directly connect the “supression” of the Liber Diurnus to Vatican 1. It’s possible that some non-Catholic, anti-Catholic source is the origin of brother Josephdaniel’s claim.

I hope that this demonstrates - yet again - that the cow cannot be trusted to tell about the horse.

Blessings,
Marduk
The Catholic Encyclopedia says this about Formula 84 of the Liber Diurnus:

“Lucas Holstenius was the first who undertook to edit the Liber Diurnus. He had found one manuscript of it in the monastery of Santa Croce in Gerusalemme at Rome, and obtained another from the Jesuit Collège de Clermont at Paris; but as Holstenius died in the meantime and his notes could not be found, this edition printed at Rome in 1650 was withheld from publication, by advice of the ecclesiastical censors, and the copies put away in a room at the Vatican. The reason for so doing was apparently formula lxxxiv, which contained the profession of faith of the newly elected pope, in which the latter recognized the Sixth General Council and its anathemas against Pope Honorius for his (alleged) Monothelism.”

(Emphasis mine.)
newadvent.org/cathen/09215c.htm

As-Salamu alaykum,
zekariya
 
I just want to point something out to readers which may not be obvious. The “supression” of the Liber Diurnus occurred in the 17th century, not in the 19th century during Vatican 1.

It should also be noted that the “supression” of the Liber Diurnus was of very short duration.
It was only suppressed in the sense that the printed copies were not allowed to be sold or distributed. I am sure the condemnation of Honorius in the papal oaths stopped well before then, otherwise it would not have come as such a shock when the Liber Diurnus was discovered.

Can you tell us if the reference to Honorius was included in the Liber Diurnus in the edition that was allowed to be republished?
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top