Is this type of sex licit?

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billpenn

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Hello.

As you can tell by my signature…a baby is on the way!!!

My wife had 4 miscarriages prior to this one, so we are both ultra-sensitive to potential issues and problems. About 3 weeks ago, my wife noticed some very slight spotting in the morning. We had had intercourse the night before. Given her history, the spotting was INTENSELY upsetting for her…even though her OB told her that everything was perfect and intercourse was the likely suspect.

Given this, we’re considering refraining from intercourse altogether.

Here’s the q: is it morally licit to engage in foreplay very near to the point of ejaculation, and then complete the act inside of her (minimally)…sorry if that’s too graphic!

Next question, in 2 parts: if the answer to the first question is “yes”, is it morally licit to bring her to orgasm via foreplay? if so, must it be parallel with my orgasm, or could it happen afterward (or before)?

Thanks all. Hoping to end a little confusion…
 
billpenn said:
Hello.

As you can tell by my signature…a baby is on the way!!!

My wife had 4 miscarriages prior to this one, so we are both ultra-sensitive to potential issues and problems. About 3 weeks ago, my wife noticed some very slight spotting in the morning. We had had intercourse the night before. Given her history, the spotting was INTENSELY upsetting for her…even though her OB told her that everything was perfect and intercourse was the likely suspect.

Given this, we’re considering refraining from intercourse altogether.

Here’s the q: is it morally licit to engage in foreplay very near to the point of ejaculation, and then complete the act inside of her (minimally)…sorry if that’s too graphic!

Next question, in 2 parts: if the answer to the first question is “yes”, is it morally licit to bring her to orgasm via foreplay? if so, must it be parallel with my orgasm, or could it happen afterward (or before)?

Thanks all. Hoping to end a little confusion…
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Congratulations and I will say a prayer for your family.

I would take the advice of the OB-GYN. Most studies that I am aware of actually affirm that intercourse during the early stages of pregnancy are not only good but actually assist in having a good pregnancy. I can understand your wifes distress but remember that choices made in fear are never healthy choices. My suggestion can only parallel that which the doctor gave. If the doctor is not seriously concerned then you two should also not be seriously concerned. This is of course easier said than done.

Concerning the morality of your question I do not see how it is objectively morally objectionable. What is necessary is that semen goes where it was intended to go in a natural way. The issue of climax at different times is not an issue of morality.

However, as I said, the advice of the doctor is always the best advice (as long as it is not immoral advice) and if you have any serious concern I would recommend abstinence at this time over some other form of sexual activity.
 
Congrats on the baby-on-the-way!

Doesn’t have an answer regarding the morality question…
 
Here’s the q: is it morally licit to engage in foreplay very near to the point of ejaculation, and then complete the act inside of her (minimally)…sorry if that’s too graphic!
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I’m almost certain that what you’re describing is not morally wrong by itself. At the very least, it is not contraceptive, and that’s the major concern. Make sure that your foreplay is not degrading either you or your wife.
Next question, in 2 parts: if the answer to the first question is “yes”, is it morally licit to bring her to orgasm via foreplay? if so, must it be parallel with my orgasm, or could it happen afterward (or before)?
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Because female orgasm is not linked directly to procreation, it need not occur at any specific time. It must, however, be a part of an overall act of intercourse. It would not be at all sinful for her to climax before or after you if your sexual act is procreative.
 
Transformer said:
I’m almost certain that what you’re describing is not morally wrong by itself. At the very least, it is not contraceptive, and that’s the major concern. Make sure that your foreplay is not degrading either you or your wife.

Because female orgasm is not linked directly to procreation, it need not occur at any specific time. It must, however, be a part of an overall act of intercourse. It would not be at all sinful for her to climax before or after you if your sexual act is procreative.
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Thanks all for the well wishes and good insights!
 
That should be fine as long as you are really careful to end it correctly with the semen ending up inside the woman.
 
OP:

You sound very concerned for your wife and baby to ask such a soul searching question which might eventually mean much sacrifice for you. Kudos to you.

That being said, it sounds as if you believe that sexual intercourse may cause a miscarriage. Why do you believe this is so? Do you know the reasons for the past miscarriages?

Depending on what your wife’s difficulties are, sexual intercourse could actually help her pregnancy.

Find out the facts and they will dispel the fear!
 
Two thoughts came to mind, and they are in no way intended to be offensive to the OP, but just intended to be a source of discussion.
  1. Is sex really that important that you cannot abstain for 9 months?
    I know it shows love and intimacy within a marriage, but can you not find other ways of doing that?
  2. Sex is for procreation, which is why it is confined to marriage, and also why semen should not be spilt.
    Many non-believers have said that the Catholic rule on sex is wrong, as old people have sex but have no chance of procreation. Our answer of course is Abraham and Sarah from the OT.
    My point being, there is definitely no chance in this situation of procreation, so does that make the sex act immoral?
Again I stress I am not calling you immoral billpenn, it was just your post made me stop and think about this situation.

Congratulations on the pregnancy. I had a miscarriage before my son. I hope all goes well 🙂
 
kellie said:
  1. Sex is for procreation, which is why it is confined to marriage, and also why semen should not be spilt.
    Many non-believers have said that the Catholic rule on sex is wrong, as old people have sex but have no chance of procreation. Our answer of course is Abraham and Sarah from the OT.
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There are two parts of the martial act. The Unitive and Procreative. Both are equally important and should not be separated.

You should be fully aware of how you treat your spouse and make sure both partners are fully willing in this case in order to fulfil the unitive aspect.
 
Nechasin said:
There are two parts of the martial act. The Unitive and Procreative. Both are equally important and should not be separated.

You should be fully aware of how you treat your spouse and make sure both partners are fully willing in this case in order to fulfil the unitive aspect.
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As I understand it, the unitive and procreative parts are not “equally important”, but the procreative part is of primary importance and the unitive part is of secondary importance.
 
Anima_Christi said:
As I understand it, the unitive and procreative parts are not “equally important”, but the procreative part is of primary importance and the unitive part is of secondary importance.
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Do you have a citation to an authoritative Church document or other reliable source for this understanding?
 
CuriousInIL said:
Do you have a citation to an authoritative Church document or other reliable source for this understanding?
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Every theologian in the history of the Church has discussed this. Any one can be cited. I think today we take the words of John Paul II a little too far without understanding his context.

The biological is primary because it is primary in nature while the unitive aspect is related but is joined to the biological and not the biological to the spiritual. While they should not be separated for the sake of discussion we make the distinction that what is first in nature is first in dignity.
 
Procreation is openness to the creation of life for an individual act of sex on the part of the couple. In the case of sex while the wife is pregnant, nothing the couple is doing specifically is non-procreative: The only thing preventing pregnancy is God’s choice to bestow on them an unborn child. Everything the couple is doing is procreative; it is what God has chosen to do that stops pregnancy from occuring. So, the act is procreative, though pregnancy almost certainly cannot occur.

Also, on procreation and unity: I was under the impression that the Church has always taught, and still teaches, that procreation is the primary purpose of sex, and unity the secondary purpose. However, both are understood to be absolutely indespensible, so it doesn’t make a great deal of difference in practice.
 
Transformer said:
Also, on procreation and unity: I was under the impression that the Church has always taught, and still teaches, that procreation is the primary purpose of sex, and unity the secondary purpose. However, both are understood to be absolutely indespensible, so it doesn’t make a great deal of difference in practice.
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You are correct. That is what I was trying to communicate.
 
billpenn said:
Hello.

As you can tell by my signature…a baby is on the way!!!

My wife had 4 miscarriages prior to this one, so we are both ultra-sensitive to potential issues and problems. About 3 weeks ago, my wife noticed some very slight spotting in the morning. We had had intercourse the night before. Given her history, the spotting was INTENSELY upsetting for her…even though her OB told her that everything was perfect and intercourse was the likely suspect.

Given this, we’re considering refraining from intercourse altogether.

Here’s the q: is it morally licit to engage in foreplay very near to the point of ejaculation, and then complete the act inside of her (minimally)…sorry if that’s too graphic!

Next question, in 2 parts: if the answer to the first question is “yes”, is it morally licit to bring her to orgasm via foreplay? if so, must it be parallel with my orgasm, or could it happen afterward (or before)?

Thanks all. Hoping to end a little confusion…
Click to expand...
diddle away.
 
Unnatural sexual acts are intrinsically evil and always gravely immoral, even if completed by, combined with, or followed by an act of natural marital relations. All unnatural sexual acts, even if used as foreplay with the sexual act being completed in natural marital relations, or even if used after natural marital relations to bring the woman to completion, are nevertheless intrinsically disordered and always objectively gravely immoral All sexual acts must be open to life. It is not moral to combine an act that is not open to life with an act that is open to life. Similarly, all unnatural sexual acts are intrinsically evil and always gravely immoral. These acts do not become moral by being combined with a natural act. These acts do not become moral if they are completed by a natural act. Also, it is not true that the woman can be stimulated and brought to completion by any means at all, at any time. Ron
 
Ron_Conte said:
Unnatural sexual acts are intrinsically evil and always gravely immoral, even if completed by, combined with, or followed by an act of natural marital relations. All unnatural sexual acts, even if used as foreplay with the sexual act being completed in natural marital relations, or even if used after natural marital relations to bring the woman to completion, are nevertheless intrinsically disordered and always objectively gravely immoral All sexual acts must be open to life. It is not moral to combine an act that is not open to life with an act that is open to life. Similarly, all unnatural sexual acts are intrinsically evil and always gravely immoral. These acts do not become moral by being combined with a natural act. These acts do not become moral if they are completed by a natural act. Also, it is not true that the woman can be stimulated and brought to completion by any means at all, at any time. Ron
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The Church does teach that every sex act must be open to life. However, I am not sure I am following what you’re saying about “unnatural acts” being mixed in with the natural sex act. Could you please define that a little more? As far as I know, oral sex and bringing your wife to orgasm through “nontraditional means” is acceptable so long as this is part of a full sex act that ends with the man…well, you know.
 
Ron_Conte said:
Unnatural sexual acts are intrinsically evil and always gravely immoral, even if completed by, combined with, or followed by an act of natural marital relations. All unnatural sexual acts, even if used as foreplay with the sexual act being completed in natural marital relations, or even if used after natural marital relations to bring the woman to completion, are nevertheless intrinsically disordered and always objectively gravely immoral
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I thought it was well established in John Paul II’s Theology of the Body that the woman may be brought to climax - by herself or her husband - before or after the man’s completion in the natural way, as long as this takes place within the same natural marital act.
 
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