Is this valid?(emergency situations and the Eucharist)

[Pelly]

I’ve heard somewhere that in emergency situations, freshly pressed grape juice is valid matter for the Precious Blood. Is it true? I’m asking this because I came across a Catholic with celiac disease and a severe intolerance to alcohol online.

 

[EZweber]

Valid matter for the Precious Blood must be fermented grape juice with some alcohol content. There is a low alcohol wine that is sometimes used. Our family knows a seminarian with celiac, and he can use a special low gluten host with 1 ppm gluten.

 

[Gorgias]

I’ve heard somewhere that in emergency situations, freshly pressed grape juice is valid matter for the Precious Blood. Is it true? I’m asking this because I came across a Catholic with celiac disease and a severe intolerance to alcohol online.

I’m trying to think what an “emergency situation” for the celebration of Mass might be…?

In any case, unfermented grape juice isn’t valid matter. And, even if you’ve pressed the grapes with the skins on, the wild yeasts on the skins wouldn’t have a chance to begin fermentation immediately following the pressing…

 

[Pelly]

Emergency in the original context means persecution, poverty or other hardships like a prohibition.

 

[EZweber]

No other liquid than the one already brought up can be valid matter in the Mass. I understand that this can be a hardship, but that is the way it is.

 

[TomH1]

freshly pressed grape juice is valid matter

No, only wine fermented from the juice of grapes is valid matter. I’m not sure of the exact minimum alcohol content but there must be some.

 

[Tis_Bearself]

And, even if you’ve pressed the grapes with the skins on, the wild yeasts on the skins wouldn’t have a chance to begin fermentation immediately following the pressing…

From what I’ve read it starts to ferment almost immediately after you press it. The fermentation doesn’t become noticeable till after 24 to 48 hours though.

In most emergency situations I’ve read about, such as war time, natural disaster, or underground Mass, the priests try to find some wine, which is more likely to be on hand than any pressed grapes.

 

[Gorgias]

From what I’ve read it starts to ferment almost immediately after you press it.

Right, but the start of the process is for the yeast colony to grow and stabilize. Actual creation of alcohol doesn’t begin immediately.

 

[Hoosier-Daddy]

No it isn’t true. If it were, you wouldnt have “heard it somewhere” you would reference a valid Church instruction about it.

 

[Tis_Bearself]

I did some research and it appears that in USA, “freshly pressed grapes” would fall under the category of “Mustum” which the USCCB notes, based on the 2003 teaching of Ratzinger, can be used in the case of someone with an alcohol intolerance, with the permission of the diocesan Bishop. Pasteurized grape juice is not permitted, it has to be mustum - which would be freshly pressed grapes which, as I stated above, begin to ferment right away once pressed, and no minimum level of fermentation is required.

Here’s the USCCB link:
http://www.usccb.org/prayer-and-wor...st/celiac-disease-and-alcohol-intolerance.cfm

It even has some sources for where to buy the proper item.

From what I have read in other sources, the Church sees this use of mustum as pushing the envelope and only lets it be used for the particular person having the need, such as the alcohol intolerant person (who may also be the priest in the case of priests with alcoholism); everybody else is supposed to use regular wine.

 

[Gorgias]

it has to be mustum - which would be freshly pressed grapes which, as I stated above, begin to ferment right away once pressed, and no minimum level of fermentation is required.

Can you show where “freshly pressed grapes” is the definition of mustum? That phrase doesn’t show up anywhere in the USCCB link you provide or the Ratzinger citation which it cites.

Moreover, the minimum level of fermentation is mentioned in the USCCB article you cite: an alcohol content usually less than 1%.

So, perhaps you can show me where I’m missing what you think you found. I’m still convinced that it can take hours for natural yeasts to even begin the creation of alcohol on “freshly pressed grapes.”

 

[Tis_Bearself]

Well, first of all, how is “less than 1 percent” defining a minimum? It could have a trace of fermentation, like 0.00001%. How would you even measure? Fermentation websites generally note that fresh grapes crushed at a normal room temp or warmer start fermenting immediately due to yeast on the grape skin and in the air, so as soon as you crush the grapes you will get a trace of fermentation. If you were really concerned you could wait for 6 hours.

However, all this is moot because the Vatican and the Catholic Encyclopedia both say that fresh grape juice, as in unpasteurized and without additives other than as permitted by the current rules, is valid matter.

http://www.vatican.va/roman_curia/c...70615_lettera-su-pane-vino-eucaristia_en.html

http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/01358a.htm

 

[dochawk]

No, only wine fermented from the juice of grapes is valid matter.

Not “fermented”, but “would ferment.”

I encountered this years ago holding the cup, and noting the grape juice smell.

The priest noted afterwards for all that such was permitted for alcoholic priests.

No minimum alcohol content, but, as a practical matter, as yeast naturally accumulate on the surface of grapes, there will always be some . . .

In most emergency situations I’ve read about, such as war time, natural disaster, or underground Mass, the priests try to find some wine, which is more likely to be on hand than any pressed grapes.

In the Soviet Gulag, they would secrete a bit of bread, smoosh a sequestered grape, and use the priest’s hand for the Holy Table, rushing through a Divine Liturgy in about four minutes . . . and nobody paid a bit of attention to who was Catholic and who was Orthodox, whether priest or laity . . .

And see what @Tis_Bearself

Can you show where “freshly pressed grapes” is the definition of mustum? That phrase doesn’t show up anywhere in the USCCB link you provide or the Ratzinger citation which it cites.

You might look at, well, anything about making wine. It’s not a theological term . . .

 

[TomH1]

Not “fermented”, but “would ferment.”

Can you please cite a source to substantiate this. It is my understanding that the wine used for the Eucharist must contain some ethanol*.

*Alcohol is not a single substance but a class of chemicals. Ethanol is an alcohol and the only one humans can safely drink. It is the alcohol found in wine and all other alcoholic beverages.

 

[Gorgias]

Well, first of all, how is “less than 1 percent” defining a minimum?

It’s not a ‘minimum’; it’s asserting that alcohol is actually present.

It could have a trace of fermentation, like 0.00001%. How would you even measure?

With a sensitive hydrometer or an oscillating U-tube.

Fermentation websites generally note that fresh grapes crushed at a normal room temp or warmer start fermenting immediately due to yeast on the grape skin and in the air, so as soon as you crush the grapes you will get a trace of fermentation.

The process begins immediately, which is not the same thing as saying that alcohol is present immediately. (It isn’t.)

However, all this is moot because the Vatican and the Catholic Encyclopedia both say that fresh grape juice

With all charity, you really are misreading what you’ve been quoting. They’re talking about fresh as opposed to preserved (i.e., ‘frozen’), not ‘fresh’ as in “I just crushed the grapes two minutes ago.” Everywhere you’ve cited “fresh grape juice”, the distinction has been “fresh vs frozen”, not “exceedingly recently crushed” (which is what you’re attempting to demonstrate). Sorry, but… that’s not what the documents are saying.

You might look at, well, anything about making wine. It’s not a theological term . . .

The quibble here is whether we mean “grapes that were just pressed, just now”, or simply that it’s juice without preservatives. You’re correct – that distinction isn’t a theological one, no matter how much some would like to make it so.

Fermentation isn’t immediate, as if a switch had been flipped.

 

[Tis_Bearself]

With all due respect, I think you are being overly technical, given that the only place one would normally be using a freshly crushed grape as opposed to wine or must from a reliable source would be a wartime or gulag or underground situation, as dochawk suggested. The Church and probably God do not require the priest to test the juice with a sensitive instrument in that situation, nor to let the grape juice sit around and possibly be confiscated. Simple common sense.

Your average priest in a normal parish who needs mustum for use with clergy or parishioners who have alcohol issues is going to obtain a bottle of mustum from an approved church supplier, not run into the church kitchen and smash a grape in a cup.

This thread has become, IMHO, a masterpiece of over-technicality. I will not speculate on why you continue to debate this but I’m done here, having posted at least three sources. Have a nice day. Bye.

 

[Gorgias]

With all due respect, I think you are being overly technical

I’m going on my experience making wine and other fermented beverages.

The Church and probably God do not require the priest to test the juice with a sensitive instrument in that situation

Agreed. But, to use it immediately after crushing – barring a severely unique situation – would mean that you’re using invalid matter.

I will not speculate on why you continue to debate this but I’m done here, having posted at least three sources.

I’ve been continuing because your sources don’t support your claims.

 

[dochawk]

Can you please cite a source to substantiate this. It is my understanding that the wine used for the Eucharist must contain some ethanol*.

Aside from chemistry, I’m not going to pull sources, no.

The chemical/biological answer is that you are going to have trace alcohol within moments of crushing the grapes. As the juice gets on the outside skin, it will come into contact with yeast. As the yeast eats a few sugars, it will issue an ethanol.

As the yeast further wake up, they will double roughly every half hour.

Soi unless you scrub or sterilize the grapes before crushing, there’s no such thing as crushed grape liquid without alcohol (unless you remove it by centrifuge, boiling, or other process).

Whether you can measure or not is dependent upon your methodology, not whether or not its there.

Fermentation isn’t immediate, as if a switch had been flipped.

Unless you somehow reduced the count of yeast to dozens, it’s statistically certain that you’ll have an ethanol molecule momentarily.

But I’m not going to spend the time to pull the biology resources, either for the process time or the density of yeast/grape (the statistics I can do off the cuff).

In short, even though there are multiple processes that yeast can use, the question isn’t which but how much of each.

hawk

 

[TomH1]

Aside from chemistry, I’m not going to pull sources, no.

Then no one is obliged to accept what you say.

You have also misunderstood what I was asking. I am not asking you to explain biochemistry to me. In post #10 you inferred that the wine used at the Eucharist does not have to contain any alcohol. It was that claim I was asking you to back up.

 

[dochawk]

I made no such claim or inference.

I stated that it is biologically impossible to have crushed grape juice without alcohol. A huge difference.