Is this wedding dress modest enough?

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When did the priest have an opportunity to do that? At the church door at the start of the ceremony?
Many years ago, a priest in a parish that I attended refused to perform a wedding ceremony because she showed up at the time of the ceremony in a black dress. The wedding was delayed and she had to run to the store to get a dress off a rack because he thought that black was an inappropriate color to be married in
 
Many years ago, a priest in a parish that I attended refused to perform a wedding ceremony because she showed up at the time of the ceremony in a black dress. The wedding was delayed and she had to run to the store to get a dress off a rack because he thought that black was an inappropriate color to be married in
The groom often wears black. Why can’t the bride? 😃
 
If you like it wear it, it’s your wedding. we are all born naked afterall 😉
 
The groom often wears black. Why can’t the bride? 😃
I dont have an answer to this question. I think at the time of the wedding when the bride showed up at her wedding between her black dress and black veil it appeared very gothic as if she was in mourning. It is still my point that it was was the priest who decided that her attire was not appropriate for the sacrament of marriage in the church and the couple needed to delay their wedding so the bride could get something else. I personally didn’t question the priest as to what his reasoning and decision making process was regarding the brides attire. This is a priest who is now deceased so it’s not like I can ask him.
 
The groom often wears black. Why can’t the bride? 😃
The tradition of the groom wearing black is a visual sign that a husband must die to himself, to lay down his life for his bride as Jesus laid down his life for His Bride, the Church.

The bridal attire should reflect the Church and Her holiness. However, white was not commonplace in the Western world until about a hundred years ago, or thereabouts, when a woman marrying into royalty (whose name I cannot recall) chose a white gown. Prior to that, the bride simply wore a beautiful dress, and of course, a veil or hat. And blue was often a preferred color for brides, in honor of the Blessed Virgin.
 
They actually make little jackets that quite easily add the illusion of sleeves, without sewing anything on. The cost seems to be in the neighborhood of $50 to $150 dollars, and of course something like that can be used again with a different dress in the future.

I see three possibilities:
  1. the dress simply isn’t modest because of the way it fits her, and anything that fixes that would be a crime against that lovely bodice. Don’t try to fight that; find another dress
  2. the dress isn’t a crime against modesty, per se, but in her area the women who care about modesty in church won’t wear something with so little coverage on the shoulders. In that case, look into a little jacket or shawl that looks right with the dress or else find a different dress or else
  3. lastly, the dress fits on her and the climate and prevailing sense of modesty are such that this dress is appropriate as it is
What you do not want to do is to either say, “it’s my wedding, I know it isn’t modest but I’m going to wear it anyway” or to wear a wedding gown in which you aren’t 100% confident that you look the way you intend to look.

The challenge with #2 is to find shoulder coverage that ties in just right with her dress and veil. What you don’t want is “almost right, but not quite.” It needs to really look right. It may be, however, that just the right thing is out there.
Yes to the jacket, but I was referring to changing the dress in case a jacket wasn’t something she wanted to do.

I agree with #1. If a dress is modified too much, it becomes, not the dress. Designers are artists, and adding sleeves, jackets, belts, takes away from the original design.
 
The tradition of the groom wearing black is a visual sign that a husband must die to himself, to lay down his life for his bride as Jesus laid down his life for His Bride, the Church.

The bridal attire should reflect the Church and Her holiness. However, white was not commonplace in the Western world until about a hundred years ago, or thereabouts, when a woman marrying into royalty (whose name I cannot recall) chose a white gown. Prior to that, the bride simply wore a beautiful dress, and of course, a veil or hat. And blue was often a preferred color for brides, in honor of the Blessed Virgin.
Yes, exactly. Queen Victoria popularized the white wedding gown. Prior to that, white court gowns were always worn by debutantes appearing for their first presentation at court, but brides might choose to wear any color from red or yellow to black, brown, or gray on their wedding day.

As for men’s dress, a typical man would wear his Sunday best, whatever that was, for a solemn occasion such as a wedding, wearing the same suit for a wedding as for a funeral. Yes, black would have been a popular choice, since if a man could only afford one “Sunday best” suit, it would need to be black, a color appropriate for every formal event.
Fascinating discussion. The replies so far are indistinguishable from various conservative Muslim decrees. Go read some and see.

Out of curiosity, I took a look at what the Catechism has to say about modesty:
vatican.va/archive/ccc_css/archive/catechism/p3s2c2a9.htm

You know what? Nothing about covering arms, dress length, etc. It uses the word “intuition” and talks about cultural norms (i.e, what might be modest on the beach would be immodest at work, or what might be modest in Paris might not be modest in a small town in Italy). Clearly unless you dressed in full niqab (head to toe black garment, with a small slit for the eyes–or maybe a veil over the eyes to satisfy the scrupulous), you will always find people who say “your dress is too short, your sleeves are too short, you’re showing too much cleavage,” etc.

I think the motto of the UK coat of arms is appropriate here: “Honi soit qui mal y pense” --basically “Evil to him who evil thinks.” Lady Godiva was modest, and she was covered only by her hair. Modesty is mental. You can be as covered up as you want and still be immodest. And vice versa.
Let’s start with Lady Godiva: Most medieval scholars agree the ride never took place. The story materialized at a Benedictine abbey about 200 years after the woman supposed to be the heroine of it died. There is not a single contemporary account that indicate this very remarkable event ever happened, even though this fine woman’s generous donations to the church did receive various mentions. As for the “Peeping Tom” subplot, it didn’t show up in writing until another 400 years after the original fable was written.

If you are referring to that story as an instructive fable, however, then tell the story as it was intended to be told! According to the fable, Lady Godiva was the virtuous wife of a noble who was oppressively taxing the people of Coventry, England. She rode through the town naked, as the story goes, because her recalcitrant husband had sarcastically responded to her pleas to reduce the onerous tax rate by saying that he’d reduce the tax rate on the day she rode through the town naked at midday. By virtue of her care for the people, she decided she would do it. Out of respect for her modesty and the generosity of her act on their behalf, however, the people of the town shuttered their windows, that she might complete the ride on their behalf with no loss of her modesty, not because being naked was modest all of a sudden but because her modesty was preserved by those who out of respect would not look upon her in her nakedness. The addition of Peeping Tom to the story only reiterates that it was a moral violation to have looked upon her, the understanding being that decent people would let her make her ride in modest privacy.

Please, then, let us not use the Godiva story to imply that Christendom has ever believed the specious “anyone telling a Christian woman what is and is not modest is a step away from encasing her in a burka” argument. “Modesty is mental”? Where did you find that in the encyclicals of any of the Popes? In the writings of the Doctors of the Church? In the Catechism. You didn’t.

Yes, there is a cultural element to what is and is not considered modest in a given area, which makes this a matter that requires discernment in light of local conditions. As St. Paul said of the practice of women covering their heads, “But if anyone is inclined to be argumentative, we do not have such a custom, nor do the churches of God.” (1 Cor. 11:16) The clear implication is that the discernment of what is appropriate dress for a Christian in some particular locale lies with the local church, not merely with each individual person.

One of the earliest posters on this thread advised consultation with one’s pastor on these matters. I would say that this and a general reckoning of the standards of dress among those Christian women in one’s locale who take the faith seriously in the totality of their choices would be a good indication of the local standards of modesty, both in the amount of the body covered and the amount of extravagance deemed acceptable in light of the singular nature of the event.

The OP does well to take modesty into consideration, since the standards of culture in the US as a whole are to be as sexually provocative as possible. She ought not make this into a matter of anxiety, however, you are very right about that. She ought to do her best and allow those who will be looking at her to take custody of their own eyes and hearts, as well. It is impossible to dress so that no one can sin even in their imaginations.
 
Let’s start with Lady Godiva: Most medieval scholars agree the ride never took place. The story materialized at a Benedictine abbey about 200 years after the woman supposed to be the heroine of it died. There is not a single contemporary account that indicate this very remarkable event ever happened, even though this fine woman’s generous donations to the church did receive various mentions. As for the “Peeping Tom” subplot, it didn’t show up in writing until another 400 years after the original fable was written.

If you are referring to that story as an instructive fable, however, then tell the story as it was intended to be told! According to the fable, Lady Godiva was the virtuous wife of a noble who was oppressively taxing the people of Coventry, England. She rode through the town naked, as the story goes, because her recalcitrant husband had sarcastically responded to her pleas to reduce the onerous tax rate by saying that he’d reduce the tax rate on the day she rode through the town naked at midday. By virtue of her care for the people, she decided she would do it. Out of respect for her modesty and the generosity of her act on their behalf, however, the people of the town shuttered their windows, that she might complete the ride on their behalf with no loss of her modesty, not because being naked was modest all of a sudden but because her modesty was preserved by those who out of respect would not look upon her in her nakedness. The addition of Peeping Tom to the story only reiterates that it was a moral violation to have looked upon her, the understanding being that decent people would let her make her ride in modest privacy.
I’m well aware of the whole story about Lady Godiva. The point is–at least for me–that “Lady Godiva” is not a code word in English for “slut” or “immodest woman.” Quite the opposite. I think we agree on that. And yes, modesty is a two-way street: one person dresses a certain way, and the others who see that person react to the way he/she dresses. The exact same clothing in the exact same setting could be seen as “modest” or “immodest” depending on the perspective of the observer. If I were at the wedding of the woman who is discussing this dress, I wouldn’t think anything of it other than “What a pretty dress.” I think other posters here would think “Oh, what a slut.” I’ll leave it to God to judge our reactions.
Please, then, let us not use the Godiva story to imply that Christendom has ever believed the specious “anyone telling a Christian woman what is and is not modest is a step away from encasing her in a burka” argument. “Modesty is mental”? Where did you find that in the encyclicals of any of the Popes? In the writings of the Doctors of the Church? In the Catechism. You didn’t.
Catechism #2524: “The forms taken by modesty vary from one culture to another. Everywhere, however, modesty exists as an intuition of the spiritual dignity proper to man.” “Intuition of the spiritual dignity…” I would interpret that as mental. It’s certainly not a dress code, item by item. How would you interpret it?
Yes, there is a cultural element to what is and is not considered modest in a given area, which makes this a matter that requires discernment in light of local conditions. As St. Paul said of the practice of women covering their heads, “But if anyone is inclined to be argumentative, we do not have such a custom, nor do the churches of God.” (1 Cor. 11:16) The clear implication is that the discernment of what is appropriate dress for a Christian in some particular locale lies with the local church, not merely with each individual person.
If you look at the whole passage (which I have done multiple times in discussions with Muslims, who absolutely are in love with the passage since it seems to tell women to cover their heads), you will see that Paul gives several arguments, then ends with the statement you quoted–basically saying its a custom, not a law. Keep in mind that Roman and Jewish women covered their heads in prayer. Greek women didn’t. Paul was a Roman citizen and a Jews. Naturally he came down on the side of what he was familiar with. Insisting women cover their heads in church came into canon law around 1905, and was repealed when a new code of canon law came in (and didn’t talk about this subject at all), I think in the 1970s. But obviously anyone can see who attends Mass that women haven’t covered their heads in church since the 1960s, and very few would now consider that to be “immodest” behavior. It’s perfectly acceptable.
 
If you like it wear it, it’s your wedding. we are all born naked afterall 😉
If the concept of modesty did not matter to the OP, she would not have come here and asked.

(PS A wink and a “we are all born naked after all” is not considered a defense against indecent exposure in most jurisdictions. Even non-believers understand there is such a thing as TMI when it comes to clothing! :rolleyes:)
 
This is a very interesting topic to me. It never occurred to me back in 2006 that my strapless dress would be considered immodest - sure, it didn’t cover my shoulders, but there was significantly less visible skin than some of the above-the-knee skirts and halter tops I’d seen women wearing to church in the summer.

It wasn’t until a couple years later at a friend’s wedding when we were discussing how she’d had straps put on her strapless dress (we both shopped at David’s for our dresses, and I am not even sure if there were any options that weren’t strapless - they all came with the attachable spaghetti straps, but those certainly don’t change the modesty of a dress). I started thinking about how maybe mine hadn’t been appropriate?

However, as I think back, my sister’s wedding in 2003 and basically any wedding I’d been to in the last 10-15 years, the bride has worn a strapless or spaghetti-strap dress, I kind of feel like I was just “part of the times” or what have you. The priest said absolutely nothing at any of the meetings we had prior - didn’t ask about bridesmaids dresses either. Maybe my parish is more liberal/progressive than it ought to be?

I will say though, that I’m rather small on top, and while the dress was strapless, there wasn’t even a hint of cleavage, no danger of it falling down, and probably higher neckline than a lot of the shirts you see in church today.

I’m justifying my choice here… though really there’s nothing I can do to change it almost 10 years later!

As to the dress at hand here - I guess, personally, if it didn’t show any cleavage, I wouldn’ t think anything of it. However, where I live, I’d be absolutely freezing in that in January 🙂
 
The tradition of the groom wearing black is a visual sign that a husband must die to himself, to lay down his life for his bride as Jesus laid down his life for His Bride, the Church.

The bridal attire should reflect the Church and Her holiness. However, white was not commonplace in the Western world until about a hundred years ago, or thereabouts, when a woman marrying into royalty (whose name I cannot recall) chose a white gown. Prior to that, the bride simply wore a beautiful dress, and of course, a veil or hat. And blue was often a preferred color for brides, in honor of the Blessed Virgin.
I thought that grooms wore dark colors usually for practicality. Most formal clothing is dark colored.

Priests on the other hand wear black as a symbol of dying to themselves. That’s how I remember it.🙂
 
I’m well aware of the whole story about Lady Godiva. The point is–at least for me–that “Lady Godiva” is not a code word in English for “slut” or “immodest woman.” Quite the opposite. I think we agree on that. And yes, modesty is a two-way street: one person dresses a certain way, and the others who see that person react to the way he/she dresses. The exact same clothing in the exact same setting could be seen as “modest” or “immodest” depending on the perspective of the observer. If I were at the wedding of the woman who is discussing this dress, I wouldn’t think anything of it other than “What a pretty dress.” I think other posters here would think “Oh, what a slut.” I’ll leave it to God to judge our reactions.
WHO said ANYTHING about name-calling against those who make inappropriate clothing choices for Mass? I did not see the word “slut” or anything like it on this thread until you threw it out there.

Heaven forbid we go from recognizing what is and is not appropriate dress and on over to rash judgment about other behaviors based on how someone is dressed. If someone here is doing that, they need to cut it out.

I think about modest and immodest dress on my own behalf, but I do not think any of the men in my parish are going to jump to the conclusion that I’m engaging in adultery because I wear a blouse that shows my cleavage. I think they’re going to wonder what insecurity or slavery to fashion seized me to show so much skin at Mass, I think they might be disappointed that I have conformed myself to the world and perhaps put a stumbling block in their way by doing it, but that’s it. As much as it it the ideal to ignore other people’s faults and to make charitable assumptions about their motives rather than to make uncharitable conjectures about them, I can’t say I’d blame them too much.
Catechism #2524: “The forms taken by modesty vary from one culture to another. Everywhere, however, modesty exists as an intuition of the spiritual dignity proper to man.” “Intuition of the spiritual dignity…” I would interpret that as mental. It’s certainly not a dress code, item by item. How would you interpret it?
As I have posted, paying attention to “culture” requires learning what the local custom is. You don’t just tell yourself that your birthday suit was the suit given to you by God and wear chiefly just that everywhere you go.

But no, there is not a single item-by-item dress code in effect in the universal Church, and I never said there was.
 
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