Is this what Islam teaches!

[Sister_Amy]

Seeing as how I am present, perhaps you should know that it’s kind of offensive to talk about me in the 3rd person like this.

Sam, people convert for many reasons, including the sense of belonging to something. A woman can convert to Islam in order to “belong” to something she did not feel at home.

Well considering that I didn’t know any Muslims when I converted, clearly that wasn’t it, since “belonging” is not at all what I felt with Muslims–totally rejected by them, is more like it, as of the first time I actually decided to go to a mosque.

A woman can convert to Islam to cover up from head to toe as a reaction to a previous wild life.

Well my life was hardly wild–I still lived with my parents at 21, and I wasn’t interested at all in covering at all when I did become Muslim. I didn’t start covering for many many months.

A woman can convert to Islam because she does not understand her previous religion.

What does that have to do with the religion she converts to?

A woman can convert to Islam because Islam puts all rules from minute 1 till the end of the day and you don’t have to think about things…

Well considering that I wasn’t interested in practicing Islam in the first place, even though I’d converted, doubt this was it.

A woman can convert to Islam to anger a family that mistreated her.

My family didn’t mistreat me, and I wouldn’t want to anger them. As long as it took me to actually begin practicing, it took me longer to tell them, afraid of their reaction.

A woman can convert to Islam because she falls for a muslim man.

Heh. No.

Am sure Amy will tel yu she found the “truth” in Islam which can only be true if the Bible is corrupt and if you are to ask her about Christian theology, she has no clue.

Well the step I took before examining the Bible was more important.

She has no problem telling you Allah is One, that His Word is uncreated and eternal, but she cannot tell you Allah and His Word are One, otherwise she won’t be able to say anymore that the Word of Allah is not a partner.

When you stop trying to say that the Qur’an IS God, I think you’ll move up a level in your understanding of the world.

 

[cyberjacques]

For the record, I have no intention of alerting Saudi Censorship to anything, and wouldn’t find it prudent or useful to do.

Why would you joke about something so despicable if you have no intention of doing it? As usual, fear seems to be the tool of choice with Muslims. And if you doubt that Sam was ever a Muslim due to his supposed lack of knowledge, then why should we believe you were ever a Christian?

Admit to partners besides God. You cannot harm me, nor any other Muslim, nor Islam.

No, Muslims like you seem to be hurting themselves and Islam just fine without his help.

I am planning to move to Riyadh this year–but not because I hate America, or want to be close to Mecca.

So are you saying that you don’t hate America? Then why do you insult it nearly every chance you get? You certainly don’t love America, that’s for sure.

 

[ronyodish]

I know that you don’t understand Islam, or the meaning of worship in Islam, or what I mean by saying admitting partners.

Sister Amy,

What does this have to do with me? You were telling Sam to admit heresy, as if Christians believed that heresy. You were projecting onto someone who is considering Christianity to admit a misunderstanding of Christianity. You could have easily said to him: “Go ahead and admit a Trinitarian God” and/or “Go ahead and admit the Incarnation of God” or something similar to these statements that accurately portrays Christianity.

In the “Old Testament” nobody worshiped Jesus.

The Incarnation had not yet occurred in the OT.

But in the “New Testament,” people do.

The Incarnation has occurred.

This we call admiting a partner to God, because Muslims don’t believe Jesus is part of God or in any sense divine. Has nothing to do with tritheism, simply that Muslims don’t believe Jesus is at all divine, nor deserving of worship, by which I mean prayer, reliance, love, etc.

Jesus is not a part of God. Jesus is God who became Man without loosing His Divinity.

Anyways, Sam was not considering Islam so that you could give him the teaching of Islam. He is already a Muslim. He is considering Christianity, and if you’re going to ask him to admit a Christian teaching, then you should be giving him the correct Christian understanding, and not mislead him.

Moreover, Muslims believe that only God can make things allowed or forbidden–only God, through His messengers. So allowing scholars or priests or popes to make things allowed or forbidden or mandatory, in Islam that is considered a kind of worship of something other than God.

This is for another topic and thread. Let me just say here that the Church is the Body of Christ and has the authority to speak on behalf her Head to the nations.

God bless,

Rony

 

[Sister_Amy]

Why would you joke about something so despicable if you have no intention of doing it? As usual, fear seems to be the tool of choice with Muslims. And if you doubt that Sam was ever a Muslim due to his supposed lack of knowledge, then why should we believe you were ever a Christian?

No, Muslims like you seem to be hurting themselves and Islam just fine without his help.

So are you saying that you don’t hate America? Then why do you insult it nearly every chance you get? You certainly don’t love America, that’s for sure.

I don’t attempt to read your mind, or see inside your heart, or anyone else–I know it’s impossible.

It’s also impossible for you to do the same. So until you can see what’s inside my heart, you’re better off not acting like you know what’s there.

 

[LaMar]

So are you saying that you don’t hate America? Then why do you insult it nearly every chance you get? You certainly don’t love America, that’s for sure.

Criticizing the cultural and social structure of the United States is not the same thing as hating America. Outward shows of allegiance by folks like the Vice President, who makes much ado about his flag lapel pin, often cover for weak ideals, displayed by Vice President Cheney during Vietnam, when he sought multiple deferments because (in his words) he had “better things to do than serve in the military”.

Sister Amy has made statements which are almost precisely similar to Pope Benedict’s statements, criticizing consumerism, materialism, and the universal availability of desublimated erotica which is consumed constantly via the mass media, even by young children.

It’s interesting to note that both of these people of faith echo the statements of Herbert Marcuse (a Marxist philosopher and social critic of no religious persuasion) 40 years ago.

All these characters are criticizing America because they ultimately expect greatness from America, rather than garbage. They don’t hate America, they want America to live up to its traditional aesthetic and ethical potential.

For the record, I think modern America is a vulgar, decadent society also. I love America, but I’d rather speak the truth than keep my mouth shut. For those that don’t understand, well, maybe it’s one of those American things…

 

[cyberjacques]

I don’t attempt to read your mind, or see inside your heart, or anyone else–I know it’s impossible.

It’s also impossible for you to do the same. So until you can see what’s inside my heart, you’re better off not acting like you know what’s there.

I don’t have to see inside your heart, you’ve opened it for the world to see.

 

[inJESUS]

inJesus, the very basic principle is that Jesus and Allah are not the same. So any prayer which is directed to Jesus, any love which is for Jesus instead of for Allah violates Tawheed al-Uloohiyyah.

Amy, you are presenting the Islamic point of view which does not respond to Christianity but to a misunderstanding of Christianity.Not believing in something is one thing, and misrepresenting it by refuting what we do not believe in is something else.

When the Bible says Jesus is the Word of the Father, we are not talking about 2 gods, nor partners to the Father . We cannot talk about the Father without talking about His Word/Wisdom.

Do you believe God is wisdomless? i hope not. So from a Christian point of view, there is only One Father, and His Word is Him, not a creature.

So our creed goes : we believe in Allah and His Word ( pure monotheism) .

this is not portrayed in the Quran which says Allah has no son since he has no wife, and that we ascribe partners to Allah when we say Jesus is divine. Son has absolutely nothing to do with women nor created partners. Jesus is the Son as He is the Word.

Do you honestly believe Allah does not know this?

 

[inJESUS]

Seeing as how I am present, perhaps you should know that it’s kind of offensive to talk about me in the 3rd person like this.

i was not talking about you but in general

When you stop trying to say that the Qur’an IS God, I think you’ll move up a level in your understanding of the world.

 

[Sister_Amy]

Angels are neither omnipotent nor omnipresent. Kind of like how men aren’t omnipotent or omnipresent either. And Jesus was fully man.

 

[LDNCatholic]

And Jesus was fully man.

Agreed, but also fully God.

 

[ronyodish]

Angels are neither omnipotent nor omnipresent. Kind of like how men aren’t omnipotent or omnipresent either. And Jesus was fully man.

Sister Amy,

Catholics agree that Angels are neither omnipotent nor omnipresent. So, since you agree as well, then the Spirit of God must not be a created creature like an Angel.

Christianity teaches that the Spirit of God is God, just like the Word of God is God. Therefore, we have the Father, His Word, and His Spirit, as One God. We do not believe in a Wordless Spiritless God.

As LDNCatholic says, Catholics also believe that Jesus was fully man, but we further believe that He was not only a man. We believe Him to be the Father’s Word that “became flesh and dwelt among us” (John 1:14).

So now, we have the One Divine Nature we call God: Father, Word, and Spirit. And we also have the Human Nature that the Word assumed at conception. This Human Nature, made up of a created human body and a created human soul, was inseparably united to the Word at conception, conceived and born as one Person, fully God and fully Man, without change and without division.

This is what we believe.

God bless,

Rony

 

[inJESUS]

Angels are neither omnipotent nor omnipresent.

we know this. So when Allah says he sends his spirit to strengthen the believers, is he actually sending an angel? because for an angel to be able to stregthen all believers at the same time in different places he must be omnipotent and omnipresent, don’t you think? when Allah breathed his spirit into Mary, did he breath an angel?

Go and inquire about Joseph and his brother, and never give up hope of Allah’s Spirit: truly no one despairs of Allah’s Spirit, except those who have no faith" (Sura 12:87).

no one despairs of an angel?

“After we have found him, we blew in him from our spirit. So they started to prostrate to him.”

Allah blew an angel in Adam?

 

[Sam_777]

Who says SA is a role model? the country has it’s so many immoral aspects that only those who go there can know about. …girls getting away from home, women sleeping with taxi drivers, women harrassing men in the streets and men do not dare utter a word otherwise women will sue them for “sexual harrasment”, women leaving SA on holiday just to wear unbelievable things outside the kingdom, men on holidays drinking like monsters with all kinds of prostitutes, or gays, but put the piety mask once in SA again, discrimination against non-Muslims, banning non-Muslim prayers, beating people on the street for showing some ankle, taking people despite their will to prayer, hitting those who eat during ramadan…

Sam can confirm every word am writing.

I agree with you and “MugenOne”.
add to that:

• If you lived all your life here in Saudi Arabia in the middle of the desert, and you don’t have national ID, then you would be called “Bedoon”, means someone’s without identity and no nationality, you cann’t have government jobs, and you can not travel.
• Certain tribes can marry certain tribes only, they call it in Arabic the marriage of the “Nassab”.
• Nationalized Saudis in the past (particularly in Jeddah & Mecca city) are called the “leftover of the sea” in Arabic “Tarsh Baher”, means those came for Umra or Haje in the past, then stayed in KSA and got the nationality.
• If you are a black Saudi, that means your ancestors were in the past “Abeed” (i.e., slaves), and children in the streets might call you Abd.
• There is a religious group called “Haiaa”, which takes people to the jail if they see them walking in the street during prayer time.
• Shops and commercial activities are halted one hour each prayer of the five we have, shops have to close 15-25 minutes before prayer in an anticipation for the prayer, that means losing almost 45 minutes to an hour each praying time.
• Shops will not allow singles to enter supermarkets at holidays nights, only families.
• Women can’t drive a car what so ever, even if she is +60 years old, you have to hire a driver or be a driver yourself.
• Women can’t have a public Job, only in females schools and banks.
• Women can’t walk in the street at night alone, there is a strong possibility that she might get kidnapped and raped.
• Expatriates can’t work in government posts what so ever.
• Expatriates can’t have Saudi nationality what so over (even if you have born here and stayed 100 years, only in rare cases when someone knows a VIP prince.
• Expatriates are not allowed to enter government hospitals, only the private sector.
• Expatriates are not allowed to enter Universities even if someone had 100% mark, (although some Islamic University would allow but for Islamic studies only).
• Expatriates can’t travel or have any member of their families travel unless they obtain a paper from their sponsor.
• Expatriates can’t rent a house unless they obtain a paper from their sponsor.
• Expatriates can’t marry unless they obtain a paper from their sponsor.
• Expatriates can’t open a bank account unless they obtain a paper from their sponsor.
• Expatriates can’t change jobs unless they obtain a paper from their sponsor.
• Non western expatriates (Indians, Bangladesh, Pakistanis) get the lowest and harshest treatment, they can be months in Jail without anyone knowing where they are.
• Non-Muslims can’t enter Mecca or Madenah, even for work.
• All the above applies for a person who lives 1 month or 100 years, its all the same.

Isn’t Saudi Arabia an Islamic country and saying that its constitution is the Quran, then where is Islam treatment in the above!!!

But really as Jesys said:
“By their fruit you will recognize them. Do people pick grapes from thornbushes, or figs from thistles?” (Matthew 7:16).

 

[dolphinlove]

I agree with you and “MugenOne”.
add to that:

• If you lived all your life here in Saudi Arabia in the middle of the desert, and you don’t have national ID, then you would be called “Bedoon”, means someone’s without identity and no nationality, you cann’t have government jobs, and you can not travel.
• Certain tribes can marry certain tribes only, they call it in Arabic the marriage of the “Nassab”.
• Nationalized Saudis in the past (particularly in Jeddah & Mecca city) are called the “leftover of the sea” in Arabic “Tarsh Baher”, means those came for Umra or Haje in the past, then stayed in KSA and got the nationality.
• If you are a black Saudi, that means your ancestors were in the past “Abeed” (i.e., slaves), and children in the streets might call you Abd.
• There is a religious group called “Haiaa”, which takes people to the jail if they see them walking in the street during prayer time.
• Shops and commercial activities are halted one hour each prayer of the five we have, shops have to close 15-25 minutes before prayer in an anticipation for the prayer, that means losing almost 45 minutes to an hour each praying time.
• Shops will not allow singles to enter supermarkets at holidays nights, only families.
• Women can’t drive a car what so ever, even if she is +60 years old, you have to hire a driver or be a driver yourself.
• Women can’t have a public Job, only in females schools and banks.
• Women can’t walk in the street at night alone, there is a strong possibility that she might get kidnapped and raped.
• Expatriates can’t work in government posts what so ever.
• Expatriates can’t have Saudi nationality what so over (even if you have born here and stayed 100 years, only in rare cases when someone knows a VIP prince.
• Expatriates are not allowed to enter government hospitals, only the private sector.
• Expatriates are not allowed to enter Universities even if someone had 100% mark, (although some Islamic University would allow but for Islamic studies only).
• Expatriates can’t travel or have any member of their families travel unless they obtain a paper from their sponsor.
• Expatriates can’t rent a house unless they obtain a paper from their sponsor.
• Expatriates can’t marry unless they obtain a paper from their sponsor.
• Expatriates can’t open a bank account unless they obtain a paper from their sponsor.
• Expatriates can’t change jobs unless they obtain a paper from their sponsor.
• Non western expatriates (Indians, Bangladesh, Pakistanis) get the lowest and harshest treatment, they can be months in Jail without anyone knowing where they are.
• Non-Muslims can’t enter Mecca or Madenah, even for work.
• All the above applies for a person who lives 1 month or 100 years, its all the same.

Isn’t Saudi Arabia an Islamic country and saying that its constitution is the Quran, then where is Islam treatment in the above!!!

But really as Jesys said:
“By their fruit you will recognize them. Do people pick grapes from thornbushes, or figs from thistles?” (Matthew 7:16).

Oh Amy,
Your going to LOVE living in Saudi, thats for sure!

 

[inJESUS]

Add to it that when they ask you why you did not go pray and you answer " am a Christian", they’ll yell in your face KAFFIR in a way only a possessed would do it.

There are endless stories of the like…we have a great time listening to them and laughing, though am sure, at the moment, the person in question wouldn’t feel at ease…

 

[Sister_Amy]

Sam, you know my fiance has been living in Saudi for several years now, and he owns his own business. That means he doesn’t need a sponsor. So he can travel at will, rent his own house. And in fact, it is allowed for expatriates to get citizenship–they have to live there for some 10 years and have an advanced degree, not sure what else. But it certainly is possible. Frankly you sound like you lived there for a time and are kind of disgruntled about it.

Moreover, even Saudi Arabia is a secular country–it does not entirely deal in Shari’a and the Qur’an is not a constitution. You’ve not impressed me one bit nor inspired me to believe you at all.

 

[Sister_Amy]

we know this. So when Allah says he sends his spirit to strengthen the believers, is he actually sending an angel? because for an angel to be able to stregthen all believers at the same time in different places he must be omnipotent and omnipresent, don’t you think? when Allah breathed his spirit into Mary, did he breath an angel?

Sometimes he sends ANGELS to strengthen the believers, yes. Angels, because there are more than one… in case you didn’t know. Not just one at all placed or all times. Recall the story of Badr when the angels helped the Muslims in the battle.

Go and inquire about Joseph and his brother, and never give up hope of Allah’s Spirit: truly no one despairs of Allah’s Spirit, except those who have no faith" (Sura 12:87).

Allah’s Mercy.

no one despairs of an angel?

No one despairs of Allah’s Mercy except those who have no faith.

“After we have found him, we blew in him from our spirit. So they started to prostrate to him.”

Allah blew an angel in Adam?

Man, it took me like 20 minutes to find this ayah thanks to your poor translation. Please help me out in future. The correct translation here is:

“So when I have proportioned him and breathed into him of My [created] soul, then fall down to him in prostration.” So the angels prostrated - all of them entirely.

This is the Saheeh International translation, which added that word in brackets there, which gives the correct interpretation in the translation–that Allah created the soul which He blew into the body of Adam.

 

[Sam_777]

Sam, you know my fiance has been living in Saudi for several years now, and he owns his own business. That means he doesn’t need a sponsor. So he can travel at will, rent his own house.

That is true if you own your own business (i.e,. investor) you as investor you don’t need Saudi sponsor to sponsor you, your company name is your sponsor, but if I work for your fiance business, that means he will become my sponsor, and I can’t do anything without his permission, I can’t even get exit reentry visa without his permission. Moreover, your fiance need to hire a Saudi person to take his passport in get him or me the exit reentry Visa, this person called in Arabic (Muakkeb), because non-Saudis can’t enter to the government office which issue those Visa, the person should be Saudi, its part of the Saudi government “Saudization plan” (plan to replace the foreigners with Saudis).

And in fact, it is allowed for expatriates to get citizenship–they have to live there for some 10 years and have an advanced degree, not sure what else.

Yes, indeed this rule has been adapted almost three years back, its a point based system, where the person who wishes to have nationality, should have PhD in Medicine or Engineering, 10 years of continues residency status, speaks Arabic, should be Muslim, should bring two signatures from the Mosque Imam & Moazen that he is praying in the Mosque daily, BUT no one from my friends here whom applied through that system got anything so far, they always told that their applications are under process, I know some people applied as soon as that rule became official, but so far non got anything, I think that rule came under pressure ONLY to allow Saudi Arabia to join WTO (World Trade Organization) NOT because they love expatriates, but what about the others whom born here and lived all their life but they don’t have PhD…

and the Qur’an is not a constitution.

Quran IS the constitution of Saudi Arabia:
“It is the fundamental assumption of the polity of Saudi Arabia that the Holy Qur’an is more suitable for Saudi Muslims than any secular constitution.”
saudinf.com/main/c4.htm

“It also claims that the Qur’an is the constitution of the country, which is governed on the basis of the Sharia (Islamic Law).”
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saudi_Arabia

You’ve not impressed me one bit nor inspired me to believe you at all.

A typical Muslim reply, I hope you read this recent report published April 21, 2008 by Human Rights Watch about the women in Saudi Arabia and see if I’m telling the truth or not.
hrw.org/english/docs/2008/04/21/saudia18598.htm

 

[dolphinlove]

Sam,
I read the article you supplied, which was interesting, but it didnt really emphasize the segregation of women.
Can you give us some examples of what its like for women?
Thanks very much
And may Jesus continue to bless you

 

[Sam_777]

Sam,
I read the article you supplied, which was interesting, but it didnt really emphasize the segregation of women.
Can you give us some examples of what its like for women?
Thanks very much
And may Jesus continue to bless you

• Women can’t drive a car even if she is very old, and covering herself 100%.
• Women can’t have a public Job, only in females schools and banks which deal with females only.
• Women can’t walk in the street at night alone, there is a strong possibility that she might get kidnapped and raped, (Youtube1) (Youtube2).
• Women can’t enter most government ministries, she has to authorize someone male to do her tasks.
• Women can’t say NO if her husband wants to marry another women.
• Women can’t walk in the streets without Abaya (black cover).
• Women can’t travel without a written permission from her husband.
• Women can be beaten by their husband, and they can’t do anything, that is mentioned in our religion.
• Women from certain tribes can only marry men from certain tribes, (Link in Arabic).
• Business Women can’t meet with anyone even in public places like Starbucks, she can be jailed, (Link in English).